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Hey All,

Just took delivery of Reaver Titan 1461 the other day and I'll be getting into cleaning and building it soon.

The titan Castus Pugilistus will be part of Legio Venator (Hunter apparently), this is to tie in with my Astral Claws / Tyrant's Legion army (Venator fought with the 'claws back in the day).

Now after all the bollocksing, is there a chance Legios would use camouflage (I realise titans are towering war constructs, but so are the likes of Baneblades etc).

I understand maybe no camo on a Warlord or Imperator titan as they are just as much psychological as physical warfare. But the Reavers and Warhounds being smaller (and less well shielded) would need to rely on cover a little more I'd imagine.

What are you're guys opinions on that.

Also any decent thoughts on colouration for legio Venator (it's a named but not fleshed out legio), as well as a crest (was going to use a stag or maybe a centaur for their sigil).

Massive thanks in advance..

Cheers,
TheTrans

The idea that they'd use camo to hide them is silly, but the idea that a titan could look awesome in camo done correctly overrides any argument against it.

If you did the camo correctly. A few green and brown splotches would be a quick path to someone buying a titan on ebay for a 90% discount...

Camouflage isn't designed to hide things, it is designed to break up outlines and sillhouettes to make targets harder to define, especially at distance. In my view, camouflague on a Titan should be designed to disguise important components and to blur boundaries between plates, etc. This is effectively what eldar holofields do in a much higher technology way.

If battleships in WW2 used camo I think a few shapes on a Titan wouldn't go amiss. It looks great on Dave Smith's Warlord titan, but less is more.

Big, rectangular blocks of different shades of battleship grey to break up the outline when stalking between ruined buildings would look pretty good.

 CaptainRavenclaw wrote:
If battleships in WW2 used camo I think a few shapes on a Titan wouldn't go amiss. It looks great on Dave Smith's Warlord titan, but less is more.

World War 2 era naval vessels didn't utilize camo as extensively as they did in WW1, but even in WW2 naval camo was still viable as not every vessel had (fire control) radar to counter it although the original intent of making rangefinding difficult (if not impossible) was no longer really viable due to advances in optics.

Titans, on the other hand, are described in the fluff as making use of an auspex/other advanced sensor systems to locate and engage targets, meaning that camo on a titan is useless, and given the general attitude of titans towards non-superheavy entities on the battlefield, I dont imagine they would care if a battle tank could locate them using mark 1 eyeballs...

Camo would be of questionable use due to their size and the technology available. If you can't see, hear or detect it coming there's something wrong. Visual identification aside there's a titan's tremendous power output; scanners, infrared, auspex, radar etc will all easily detect it.

That said if you can pull off a good looking camo scheme then go for it, it's your model. Though since it's for your Tyrant's Legion army how about painting it in the inverse of the Astral Claws colours? So blue armour with silver trim and detailing. It would look distinct but still a cohesive part of your army.

In a word: Yes.

This is the studios most recent EPIC Warlord mini:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080922113534/warhammer40k/images/1/10/Warlord_Titan.jpg

Same drab colour as on the art used for the cover of the novel Titanicus and the last version of EPIC (Armageddon).

Obviously that's the 'bland' Lucius pattern, but if you go back to 1st edition it was actually somewhat standard to paint the top of the carapace in a camo pattern to try and hide from orbital surveillance whilst the front/sides/rear would bear heraldic colours.

Rule of cool.

If you can pull off a cool camp scheme that works on a reaver then go for it.

I, however,think that it doesn't really fit very well and would end up not looking as good as it could with one of the predetermined legion schemes

A baneblade using camouflage is one thing, they can still hide behind a stand of trees. A titan, however, needs several tall buildings to hide behind. Typically, they are painted in their legion's colors, partially because the legion believes the machines to be invincible, and partially to draw attention from other, more tactically valuable units. Infantry still takes objectives and ground; war machines are there to help.

In a urban setting camo would be very viable against opponents attempting to identify you visually, especially for the smaller Titans.

Warhounds and Reavers are small enough to be hidden by any decent sized building.

It would defeat the purpose for a titan. To try and hide it would be pointless, and if it was hidden, it was lower the effectiveness of the troops out in the field. But if you like the look, then paint away!

How else does Creed hide one behind a bush? Warp magiks you say, HERETIC!

I can see the idea of camouflage on top looking good, so it was harder to spot from orbit.

Of course, even then, it would give off a tremendous amount of heat, and have a trail of destruction behind it. But if this is for tabletop purposes that doesn't matter if the paint job looks good.

How can you afford that much :O

The Titans larger than the Warhound should best be considered like the power armored Astartes.

They do not wear camouflage as there is a tradition of pride and a pedigree with these war machines that makes the idea of 'hiding' offensive to the Machine Spirit and the operator.

 Rippy wrote:
It would defeat the purpose for a titan. To try and hide it would be pointless, and if it was hidden, it was lower the effectiveness of the troops out in the field. But if you like the look, then paint away!

Depends on the scale of the conflict.
The only thing more devastating than a titan is a titan that the enemy isn't expecting and is unprepared for.

Scenario 1: Scouts and aerial reconnaissance tell you the enemy has a Warlord in full ceremonial regalia parked on Hill 142. You have all available titan-killer units dig in facing Hill 142 ready for the enemy advance.

Scenario 2: Intel reports that the enemy has a camouflaged Warlord titan. Scouts and aerial reconnaissance report possible hiding places on Hills 139, 140, 142 and 144 but no confirmed contact. What do you do? Do you divide your titan-killer assets by four and send them to each hill? Do you hold them in central reserve ready to deploy en-mass once the titans location becomes know? Are they fast enough to get to the front before the battle is lost?

 Kanluwen wrote:

They do not wear camouflage as there is a tradition of pride and a pedigree with these war machines that makes the idea of 'hiding' offensive to the Machine Spirit and the operator.

Codex Titanicus (original) page 32:
"Marnoc knew that the enemy were close behind them now. He could pick up comm-pulses of three rebel titans, almost within weapon range. Marnoc had powered down the void shields so that they would not show up on enemy sensors. He knew the buildings of Rogsburg would shield them from enemy radar. There was no way the damaged Fortunata could take on so many. Even the Titan itself seemed to realise this. It ran unprotestingly before the advancing traitors. "

Titans can use camo. There are examples floating around. They would usually have it match the surrounding terrain (obviously).

In a desert they may have camo to hide them against the horizon. In cities they will match the color of the local building materials.

Titans to infact "hide" Titanicus is full of examples. Titans hide in alleys. Inside large buildings, ect.

And as for Space Marines.... they use camo too.

Maybe not a technical valid reason, but then again we are talking about the IoM here, were arcane rituals and doctrine have replaced knowledge and tactics.

Maybe the ancient books about camouflage just didn't account for titan sized combatants but are still aplied nonetheless.

SerQuintus wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
It would defeat the purpose for a titan. To try and hide it would be pointless, and if it was hidden, it was lower the effectiveness of the troops out in the field. But if you like the look, then paint away!

Depends on the scale of the conflict.
The only thing more devastating than a titan is a titan that the enemy isn't expecting and is unprepared for.

Scenario 1: Scouts and aerial reconnaissance tell you the enemy has a Warlord in full ceremonial regalia parked on Hill 142. You have all available titan-killer units dig in facing Hill 142 ready for the enemy advance.

Scenario 2: Intel reports that the enemy has a camouflaged Warlord titan. Scouts and aerial reconnaissance report possible hiding places on Hills 139, 140, 142 and 144 but no confirmed contact. What do you do? Do you divide your titan-killer assets by four and send them to each hill? Do you hold them in central reserve ready to deploy en-mass once the titans location becomes know? Are they fast enough to get to the front before the battle is lost?

If your scouts and aerial reconnaissance cannot find something the size of a Warlord Titan, even if it is camouflaged, it is time to find new scouts and reconnaissance units.

 Kanluwen wrote:

They do not wear camouflage as there is a tradition of pride and a pedigree with these war machines that makes the idea of 'hiding' offensive to the Machine Spirit and the operator.

Codex Titanicus (original) page 32:
"Marnoc knew that the enemy were close behind them now. He could pick up comm-pulses of three rebel titans, almost within weapon range. Marnoc had powered down the void shields so that they would not show up on enemy sensors. He knew the buildings of Rogsburg would shield them from enemy radar. There was no way the damaged Fortunata could take on so many. Even the Titan itself seemed to realise this. It ran unprotestingly before the advancing traitors. "

And?

The book would have been fairly boring if it read "Marnoc knew that he was outclassed but the Machine Spirit of his mighty Titan would not flee the fight and both went out in a blaze of glorious flame."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeffDred wrote:
Titans can use camo. There are examples floating around. They would usually have it match the surrounding terrain (obviously).

Warhound Titans use camouflage certainly.

But not Warlords, Reavers, Imperators, etc.

In a desert they may have camo to hide them against the horizon. In cities they will match the color of the local building materials.

Titans to infact "hide" Titanicus is full of examples. Titans hide in alleys. Inside large buildings, ect.

There is a difference between using the terrain for maneuvering/concealment and using the terrain for camouflage.

And as for Space Marines.... they use camo too.

Not really. You have the Scouts for most Chapters using camouflage.

The pseudo-chivalric code that the Astartes utilize essentially turns the Scouts into the "squires" and "peasants", performing the tasks that the Astartes as the "knights" are either ill-suited to perform or feel beneath their station.

You also have the Chapters like the Black Templars and Imperial Fists which eschew camouflage even for their scouts/trainees.

Sure they can use camo!

"I'm a building, I'm a building, I'm a building..."

They probably could.
Ships during WWI and WWII used certain patterns to break up their silhouette and mess with enemy attempts to guess speed and direction. A titan could use similar patterns.
However, that would only work for visual spotting. Even now camo for ships has lost its usefulness, ECM plays a far bigger part now. For this same reason a titan is more likely to be painted in bright colours both as an aid to the shock and awe of a titan's presence and also to help identify it in battle.

I'm trying to imagine the camo on reavers, warlords and imperators. Yup, they'd be really well hidden with the right paint scheme LOL

It's not about hiding it. It's about breaking up the silhouette and making it harder to judge speed or distance. Even then it's not even about the paint scheme, good camo is irregular patterns which help break up the outline of the recipient.

Of course, once you factor in that there may be advanced jamming equipment in the Titan itself visual camo becomes viable again.

IIRC in Titanicus there was a fair amount of jamming and counter jamming going on.

I'd think that the main use for camo on a Baneblade would be to make it less visible to aerial surveillance. This only works because it's fairly flat and low to the ground. The bipedal stance of Titans makes that much less useful.

Eldar holofields are advanced camouflage and seem to be quite effective in 40k.

The effectiveness of visual camouflage in 40k is going to depend a lot on who you are fighting against. Necrons aren't going to be fooled by a paintjob, but it's possible orks could be.

The only weapons orks have which are a threat to a titan are going to be mounted on huge warmachines, like stompas. I very much doubt that it's possible to get good instrument readings from inside a moving stompa; between the vibrations and amount of radiation being thrown out, a couple of grots with telescopes might well be the best detection system they have.