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So I've been toying with the idea of using shining spears. Has anyone ever actually fielded them?

I was looking for a way to include a resilient CC threat in my lists, and a medium-size squad of these, exarch with hit and run, and maybe an autarch with a bike, banshee's and maaaaybe the shard could, in my mind, absolutely dominate. Or, maybe I need a Farseer for fortune? Wraithblades are more expensive (per unit, a squad in a WS should be about the same as the tooled up spears) and much less mobile if the serpent is destroyed. Think about it.... On the charge, drop massive amounts of hate into a vehicle or squad, maybe even popping transports with the 6" shot, dominate the first round of combat thanks to a banshee's and the strength of lances in round one. Swing like an assortment of wet noodles in your opponent's turn. Hit-and-run after his combat. If they break (morale) after your assault it's bad news though...

Is this tactic in-playable? These bikes are more likely, in my mind, to commit to CC on your terms. I don't see wraithblades doing the same thing!

I can certainly elaborate on why I think they would be useful, but before I do that, I want to hear some comments about why they're not. I've never seen a list include them, I've never seen them discussed, and honestly, I've never considered them myself.... Before now.

So lets have it, talk me through why shining spears are terribad

I've tried them once (against Vanilla CSM, basically their ideal target) and they did quite well. I'm just not sure they're as useful as the other Fast Attack options basically.

I've been looking to get some of their models also, they look like a great way to have a mobile CC unit and a bodyguard for my Autarch. I'd probably just take 6, though. And if you take something like the Soulshrive on the Autarch, you'll be able to kill something even when you're not charging.

Wraithguard/blades seem much more resilient. You can send a tooled-up autarch with wraithblades as well to help compensate for their weaknesses, and you don't have to pay for a jetbike.

On the transport issue--yes if you only have 1-2 wave serpents in your whole army, then the one with the wraithblades will never make it into combat. But if you have 3+ wave serpents and 2 units of wraithtroops, at least one of them is likely to get in.

My experience with SS in previous editions is probably mostly still unchanged--after the first round of combat they have a tendency to lose and have to make leadership checks, and the initiative test for Hit & Run always seems to fail exactly when I need it most.

[edit]

Also, if you're talking map control as in being able to clear and hold objectives, then wraithtroops do that better. Sitting in cover with a spirit seer concealing them and T6, and also holding the objective and not just contesting it. Just be sure to shoot down the heldrake first.

Well, I fielded them in the previous Eldar edition. My experience is similar to that of Flavius. They need an Autarch to join them for larger impact in the first round of combat. Frankly, I'd stay away from them in competitive play. There are better fast attack units in the new Eldar codex.

I ran them pretty often (5th edition) to good success.
They worked really well as a clean up crew, hitting units weakened by shooting.
The key was to hit weakened units isolated from the rest of the army. I used a lot of blasts/templates to force my opponent to spread out, and this created the space for the Shining Spears to work in.

-Matt

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Wraithguard/blades seem much more resilient. You can send a tooled-up autarch with wraithblades as well to help compensate for their weaknesses, and you don't have to pay for a jetbike.

On the transport issue--yes if you only have 1-2 wave serpents in your whole army, then the one with the wraithblades will never make it into combat. But if you have 3+ wave serpents and 2 units of wraithtroops, at least one of them is likely to get in.

My experience with SS in previous editions is probably mostly still unchanged--after the first round of combat they have a tendency to lose and have to make leadership checks, and the initiative test for Hit & Run always seems to fail exactly when I need it most.

[edit]

Also, if you're talking map control as in being able to clear and hold objectives, then wraithtroops do that better. Sitting in cover with a spirit seer concealing them and T6, and also holding the objective and not just contesting it. Just be sure to shoot down the heldrake first.

Not to mention that if he wants a CC threat the unit is going to take a tonne of fire and Wraith units are sturdy enough to survive it.

I used them a couple of times in 6th as I love the models and idea behind them and really want them to work, but they just don't.

They are pretty bad at the job they need to do. Let's look at what's wrong with them:

- First and probably biggest is that they DON'T have grenades. As an elite unit that isn't particularly tough, not going first against anything that is in cover severely cripples their potential.
- Second, to make things worse they hardly can put a dent in anything as they only have 2 attacks on the charge.

They aren't terrible unit, but they just aren't a good CC unit. They fold when in assault with a unit that doesn't die during the first round (and without fearless have a decent chance to get run down in round 2), and if they do kill everything they aren't durable enough to stand in the open.

They are basically more expensive windriders without being scoring or having the option to include a cannon.

And the things that would make them work in close combat (tooled-up autarch) would also make windriders good and they can also get an warlock to enhance them.

Autarchs joins the squad. They have grenades now. Bigger of the two problems solved. Second is also solved with the Autarch's 5 WS6 attacks on the charge. Give him the Shard and they're also fearless.

And unless you're going the Mantle route, there's no better place for an Autarch than a Shining Spear unit, so you're not really missing out on anything spectacular elsewhere.

When DutchSage said that it was a problem that they don't have grenades, I thought he meant wraithblades. Neither shining spears nor wraithblades have grenades, right? So both times that problem has to be solved with the autarch.

Wraithblades do have 3 attacks on the charge, which gives them a bit of advantage over shining spears, especially in 2nd and subsequent rounds.

 Araenion wrote:
Autarchs joins the squad. They have grenades now.

No they don't, read the grenade rules. Grenades in 6th edition work on a model per model basis, not a unit by unit basis.

Nope, neither have grenades, unfortunately. I wouldn't ever charge something with Shining Spears that I can't kill in one round, tbh, or can reliably hide myself in for a turn.

We're talking 5 Shining Spears + Exarch. Exarch has a S8 AP2 weapon with 3 attacks that strike first and at BS5. That's pretty huge, tbh. The Spears themselves have 10 attacks, which amounts to about 5 dead MEQ. Exarch can challenge any T4 character and either take him out of the fight or strike him down with just a single unsaved wound. Remember, he's AP2 so not even terminator armour is safe from him. Retaliation shouldn't hurt them a lot, if at all.

Not too shaby. In game, there are a few problems they face. However, they have two abilities that make them fieldable. Outflank and Skiller Rider. Hit and Run and Monster Hunter are a nice plus as well.

Add in the Autarch. They have grenades and they go from 13 attacks to 18 on the charge. 18 attacks should be enough to kill off any elite infantry you come across, except TH/SS terminators. They're not supposed to be the hammer. Seer council is the hammer. Spears are a razor that is dangerous to any number of things, like Riptides(with the Autarch), MEQ, TEQ, backfield shooty units. Gunlines. But they can't be left alone. You need to support them with WRJ, Warp Spiders and if possible, a Farseer with Prescience.

They're worse than Spiders, WRJ, Serpents, Farseers. They're on par with everything else in the codex, IMHO. It's a nice challenge to build an army to make use of less-than-obvious choices and they are far from useless. They got everything they needed to get in the new edition, except perhaps 3 attacks and grenades, which again, is mitigated by using the Autarch. I'm definitely going to proxy some jetbikes to try them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


No they don't, read the grenade rules. Grenades in 6th edition work on a model per model basis, not a unit by unit basis.

Yes, you're right. Wow. Alright. Much bigger issue than I thought.

Yeah, the grenades are the major problem. Even with an Autarch with a Banshee mask at best they strike simultaneous with anything in cover.

The problem with the Autarch is that to be effective you would also need an exarch (otherwise he will get challenged and the additional attacks are kind of wasted). This means a squad of 5 spears + 1 exarch + 1 autarch is sitting at around 290 points. Keeping that pointsvalue in mind the amount of damage they can take is still really limited (9 toughness 4 wounds with a 3+ save) and although the amount of damage they can do is not that bad on paper, factor in overwatch and targets in cover and it becomes not that impressive.

Like I said, I wish they worked. If they had been given grenades they might have, but without them they just don't have the tools to do what they are supposed to.

If you want a resilient CC threat, and you're open to allies, why not ally with Dark Eldar and run a Beast pack with the Baron? The Baron gives a lot of nice utility, they'd have Hit and Run if the Baron joins, they hit hard and you can take a lot of 4++ save bodies for pretty cheap.

Correct me if im wrong but you could join a spirtseer and cast conceal on them shrouded and skilled rider gives them a 2 up jink save right? Only problem with this would be tau markerlights.

That and the fact a spiritseer can't take a jetbike unfortunately (or fortunately, as if they could they would be even better than they are now, close to over just plain broken).