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Is the Pink Fire of the Burning chariot "flaming" due to using the rules for flamethrowers? I'm thinking it is, at least by RAW, and until GW really decides to really screw this model over with a poor FAQ.

No. The pink fire from the chariot is the same as the spell you just don't need magic dice to shoot it.
Not the best rule I definitely say..but sadly that's how it's written.

Thanks for the reply.

How did you come to that conclusion?

The Daemon book says "Pink Fire uses the rules for Flamethrowers"

In the BRB. it has a profile, and states to use it unless specified. So we use the Daemon profile instead.

We go on to use the rules then for how to fire the flamethrowers and in that section it states that they are flaming attacks and panic checks must be made if there are casualties.

Finally it gives misfire procedure and Army book trumps BRB so we use those rules.

So the way I see it, it would have Warpflame and Flaming. The rules don't conflict in any way with each other and its not the warpflame conferring Flaming, its the firethrower rules conferring flaming.

GW really needs a "help the Daemons out" FAQ here and also on the 40k side of the game if they expect to sell any of these models. The model is utterly useless in that game. And on the fantasy side its "meh" because it can't march 20", although I really like the model. Maybe it will be able to in 9th. Making it flaming at least counters some of the warpflame disadvantages.

Unless the profile for the chariot say flaming attacks it doesn't have flaming attacks.

Camarodragon wrote:

Making it flaming at least counters some of the warpflame disadvantages.

I don't know the daemon rules as i play WOC but I'm assuming your warpflame is the same as ours in which case it shouldn't cancel out. The regen is given after the enemy unit is hit by the flaming attacks of the spell/ability so they will get to use their regen rule this phase.
Unless the target unit already had regen that is.

Camarodragon wrote:
Thanks for the reply.

How did you come to that conclusion?

The Daemon book says "Pink Fire uses the rules for Flamethrowers"

In the BRB. it has a profile, and states to use it unless specified. So we use the Daemon profile instead.

We go on to use the rules then for how to fire the flamethrowers and in that section it states that they are flaming attacks and panic checks must be made if there are casualties.

Finally it gives misfire procedure and Army book trumps BRB so we use those rules.

So the way I see it, it would have Warpflame and Flaming. The rules don't conflict in any way with each other and its not the warpflame conferring Flaming, its the firethrower rules conferring flaming.

GW really needs a "help the Daemons out" FAQ here and also on the 40k side of the game if they expect to sell any of these models. The model is utterly useless in that game. And on the fantasy side its "meh" because it can't march 20", although I really like the model. Maybe it will be able to in 9th. Making it flaming at least counters some of the warpflame disadvantages.

Why can't it march? Did I miss something?

When you read the decription it talks about during the shooting phase. Pink fire spell the rules are the same as the a flame thrower as well and I believe the quote about using the rules is just in regards to how the Pink Fire shoots..ie the template and the roll of the misfire dice. Condensing pink and blue fireshooting rules for space with 'fire thrower and grapeshot'

Sadly Tzeentch (the supposed master of magic) got shafted in the new books. It has been a discussion since its release.
They FAQ'd that warpflame so it does not cause flaming attacks so having flaming and warplflame not causing flaming would contradict.
It's lame IMO because the models would still get regen against everything else that isn't flaming but that is how I read it.
And to call it warpflame and fire etc. and not give anyone flaming...poor decision IMO.

My mono Tzeentch army has been shelved for now because I can't be bothered to learn them when they make my enemies tougher.
It's not so bad for warriors because they can counter the regen by taking Lore of Metal which does confer flaming attacks.

People may disagree but that's how I see it.

It cannot march, because chariots have a rule that say chariots cannot march.

If the chariot had the flaming special rule, than the units attacks, impact hits, and steed attacks would all be flaming.
The Fire Thrower has the flaming rule.
The daemon book says to use the rules for fire thrower.

Until FAQ'd otherwise, it does have flaming.
Don't get too excited though, taking a hit from flaming only negates Regeneration for that phase. So you stop regen in the shooting phase, but then they still have it during the magic phase, movement phase, and close combat phase.

If you pair the chariot with a shadow wizard (Slaanesh) steed of shadows would give you another 10" move.

-Matt

I don't believe so. The only place Flaming Attacks is written on Fire Throwers is in the profile. Pike/Blue chariots specifically overwrite the profile.

Not only that, if someone tried to say lolol it's flaming, I might counter and say it's not a daemon of tz, daemonic, with fly. It's just a plain old fire thrower chariot.

They're usually a lot better at this. Like Soul Grinder says "fires according to the rules" for 2 of the 3 weapons it has. Though Fire Thrower says uses the rules. They were just sloppy.

But even if they were, I think this goes back to the BRB rule that army book > BRB. The profile for Fire Thrower is overwritten by profile for the Pinky--it can't have 2 profiles and choosing to add them together (zomg it's S5 + D6!!!) doesn't make any sense or have any precedence. Likewise it says a Fire Thrower rolls on Black Powder Misfire, but the chariot has a specific rule for Misfire. You're not rolling both. When there's a conflict the army book takes precedence over the BRB.

It's not Flaming Attacks because it is instead Warpflame and Slow to Fire. Even if it didn't have those Special Rules the fact it lists a different profile shows that is the one you use.

But then duke how do you shoot with it.??

Ok, I imagine your going to say. "use the rules for flamethrowers." ok, so under the written rules for flamethrowers it states that it is flaming. So not only is it flaming under the rules for the profile but also under the rules for flamethrowers.

Basically, every model that changes the profile of a war machine you use the army book profile. An empire mortar is fired as a stone thrower. But it isn't S 3(9) multi-wounds(6) even though a stone thrower is. A stone thrower says multi-wounds (6) it in the profile of stone thrower and under damage, just like Fire Thrower lists Flaming Attacks in both areas. But a mortar is only multi-wounds (3).

From the BRB it says, "unless otherwise specified, a fire thrower has the following profile."

Well, it did otherwise specify.

You merge the two sets of rules and where there is a conflict, the army book wins. If it didn't, mortars, scraplaunchers, etc, would all be multi-wounds (D6). For scraplauncher, it says the model IS a stone thrower. But, you know, it's not. It has its own profile.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Basically, every model that changes the profile of a war machine you use the army book profile. An empire mortar is fired as a stone thrower. But it isn't S 3(9) multi-wounds(6) even though a stone thrower is. A stone thrower says multi-wounds (6) it in the profile of stone thrower and under damage, just like Fire Thrower lists Flaming Attacks in both areas. But a mortar is only multi-wounds (3).

From the BRB it says, "unless otherwise specified, a fire thrower has the following profile."

Well, it did otherwise specify.

You merge the two sets of rules and where there is a conflict, the army book wins. If it didn't, mortars, scraplaunchers, etc, would all be multi-wounds (D6). For scraplauncher, it says the model IS a stone thrower. But, you know, it's not. It has its own profile.

I'd agree with this, except that under the rules for Firing a Fire Thrower, it also gives it the flaming attack rule.

All models underneath the template are hit automatically. Wounds caused by a fire thrower have the flaming attacks special rule. A unit suffering any casualties must take a Panic Test.

If you disregard the paragraph that tells you that it causes panic and flaming hits, you're also tossing out the rules on who is hit.
You don't need Flaming Attacks in the profile, when you also get it in resolving hits.
I think this is an oversight; but for now, that's what gives it the flaming hits.

It does the same thing for stone throwers and D6 multi wound. Which, if you apply the same logic, would mean anything that works as a stone thrower does D6 regardless of what they say in their profile. Empire Mortars are D6 and Scraplaunchers are D6, Thundertusks are D6, etc. It makes a whole lot of stuff more powerful even though they specifically have a different profile that doesn't say D6.

The profile is the profile. Special Rules are listed in only one place for weapons and for units. If you look up weapons, they have a profile. Name/Range/Strength/Special Rules. The Chariot lists all of those. The only way you get more is if the model itself has some that extends to the weapon (like poison attacks or something). In this case, it's magic because the unit is Daemonic, and that extends to the weapon per the army book. But the entire profile is changed. It lists every single special rule the weapon gets and Flaming Attacks isn't one of them.

If the profile doesn't matter, it's also not a chariot, not daemonic, can't fly, has no models, isn't D6, isn't warpflame, isn't slow to fire, basically can't be bought or do anything. Because you're forcing it to only be a generic Fire Thrower and there is no unit Fire Thrower, there's just a profile for a weapon ON a unit. And the profile for Pinky specifically changed it.

Show any place where a weapon profile is additive to the weapon profile it replaces. It would screw up lots of war machines with custom profiles. And in any case, it says "unless otherwise specified" and lists "Special Rules." It is otherwise specified with other special rules.

Although the hellcannon, for example states that it it uses the rules for a tonethrower, except that it is s5/s10 and has the doomfire rule.
Other books should similarly state the changes to standard rules as exceptions.

Duke, does it cause panic?

Yeah, I don't see why it shouldn't panic. That's not a special rule on the profile that was overwritten.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Yeah, I don't see why it shouldn't panic. That's not a special rule on the profile that was overwritten.

Panic isn't in the profile, it's in the same section as flaming hits.
Flaming hits IS in the profile, but it's also in the firing process.
I don't see how you can include panic and exclude flaming.

The basic fire thrower is redundant in that it has flaming in the profile, and flaming in the rules of how to fire it.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Yeah, I don't see why it shouldn't panic. That's not a special rule on the profile that was overwritten.

Panic isn't in the profile, it's in the same section as flaming hits.
Flaming hits IS in the profile, but it's also in the firing process.
I don't see how you can include panic and exclude flaming.

The basic fire thrower is redundant in that it has flaming in the profile, and flaming in the rules of how to fire it.

What he said..

"Same section" is 100% meaningless. There is no BRB value that says you can only evaluate rules whole section-by-section. Where a section happens to be 3 sentences.

However the BRB does state the army book takes precedence over the BRB. If that changes a word in a rule's sentence, let alone a "section," so be it. And the BRB also says, for the 3rd time, unless otherwise stated, fire throwers have the below profile.

The profile lists the Special Rules the weapon has. Capital S, capital R. It doesn't list Flaming Attacks. You can't take multiple profiles.

I've already pointed out that every single stone thrower has D6 in the profile and text body. So let me ask you, mortars and thundertusks and scraplaunchers do D6 wounds or what is stated in their profiles?

You seem to want to cherry pick profiles and, strangely, add them together. When it's clear from every other weapon in the game that profiles are replaced. You're saying the BRB takes precedence over the army book and profiles are additive.

You can't have it both ways. You're arbitrarily taking the benefit that the army book clearly writes over. So you also get the penalties the army book clearly writes over. Including misfire and the fact it's move and fire--BRB says all war machines unless specified are slow to fire and move OR fire; but you've thrown out the unless specified on the profile, so we get to throw it out here too. And if a misfire is rolled, you have to roll black powder misfire and also take D6 SD6 hits.

DukeRustfield wrote:
"Same section" is 100% meaningless. There is no BRB value that says you can only evaluate rules whole section-by-section. Where a section happens to be 3 sentences.

However the BRB does state the army book takes precedence over the BRB. If that changes a word in a rule's sentence, let alone a "section," so be it. And the BRB also says, for the 3rd time, unless otherwise stated, fire throwers have the below profile.

The profile lists the Special Rules the weapon has. Capital S, capital R. It doesn't list Flaming Attacks. You can't take multiple profiles.

I've already pointed out that every single stone thrower has D6 in the profile and text body. So let me ask you, mortars and thundertusks and scraplaunchers do D6 wounds or what is stated in their profiles?

You seem to want to cherry pick profiles and, strangely, add them together. When it's clear from every other weapon in the game that profiles are replaced. You're saying the BRB takes precedence over the army book and profiles are additive.

You can't have it both ways. You're arbitrarily taking the benefit that the army book clearly writes over. So you also get the penalties the army book clearly writes over. Including misfire and the fact it's move and fire--BRB says all war machines unless specified are slow to fire and move OR fire; but you've thrown out the unless specified on the profile, so we get to throw it out here too. And if a misfire is rolled, you have to roll black powder misfire and also take D6 SD6 hits.

Look at Fire Thrower.
The profile is on the left side in the BRB. Replace that with the one from the daemon book.
Now it says fire it as per fire thrower. Look under the Section titled FIRING A FIRE THROWER. That section gives flaming hits too.
After you replace profile with profile, you're still left with flaming hits as described under firing a fire thrower.

If you replace it, you have your finite number of special rules. Just like in any weapon/unit. If you have a magic sword of +1 S it's not also KB just because another sword is KB. You use the profile that is listed and nothing more.

Are you really saying the profile AND the [uh, section] give 2 special rules that have to both be explicitly addressed? It's double flaming? Unless a weapon says, "ignore paragraph 4, sentence 2." That's nonsense. And no one has commented on how it screws up every custom war machine. Bolt thrower text lists Strength 6 in the profile AND the body. That means no bolt thrower can ever not be S6 no matter what your profile says. Stone thrower is D6 wounds in the center, all of them. And no Stone thrower can ever not be a small template, because it lists it in [tha section] which is magical and overrides everything.

And as I've already stated, you will have to roll on the black powder misfire and take the D6 D6 hits if a misfire comes up. Because it doesn't go "hey, forget the text in the BRB and use this," which you're saying is required. Because only the profile has changed and misfire isn't part of the profile. It uses the rules of a Fire Thrower, and that includes that rule on Misfires. It just has 2 now.

So to clarify, Duke, are you saying that if the firing rules were as written (teardrop, flaming attacks, panic), but it didn't list flaming on the profile, you would agree that the chariot had flaming?
But because it is listed in both you think it doesn't?

DukeRustfield wrote:
If you replace it, you have your finite number of special rules. Just like in any weapon/unit. If you have a magic sword of +1 S it's not also KB just because another sword is KB. You use the profile that is listed and nothing more.

Are you really saying the profile AND the [uh, section] give 2 special rules that have to both be explicitly addressed? It's double flaming? Unless a weapon says, "ignore paragraph 4, sentence 2." That's nonsense. And no one has commented on how it screws up every custom war machine. Bolt thrower text lists Strength 6 in the profile AND the body. That means no bolt thrower can ever not be S6 no matter what your profile says. Stone thrower is D6 wounds in the center, all of them. And no Stone thrower can ever not be a small template, because it lists it in [tha section] which is magical and overrides everything.

And as I've already stated, you will have to roll on the black powder misfire and take the D6 D6 hits if a misfire comes up. Because it doesn't go "hey, forget the text in the BRB and use this," which you're saying is required. Because only the profile has changed and misfire isn't part of the profile. It uses the rules of a Fire Thrower, and that includes that rule on Misfires. It just has 2 now.

Yeah, I'm saying it's double flaming, because that's how it is written. It's totally redundant, but that's how it's written.

It isn't HIWPI, it's RAW.

Yes. Because it is just a description of THAT profile. Exactly like D6 stone thrower and S6 bolt thrower, which no one is conveniently commenting on.

If it was listed elsewhere, it would be tied not to the profile, but the broader object. An example of which is all war machines are slow to fire and move or fire unless otherwise stated. The profile doesn't have to state it, the BRB already does. I.e., a fire thrower is a war machine and a war machine is...

If the army book says it isn't, like the Pinky says it is Move AND fire, then it overwrites that rule. The exclusion of Flaming Attacks from Special Rules means No Flaming Attacks. Just like a scraplauncher overwrites all sections of the BRB which says it's D6 multiwounds.

You're basically demanding the profile to read:

Pink Fire--n/a---D6---Slow to Fire, Warpflame, NO Flaming Attacks

When does a weapon/unit/model ever list the Special Rules it doesn't have? It lists what it does have and anything not in that list is excluded.

Also again, it does not tell you to ignore the Misfire in the BRB. Just like it doesn't tell you to ignore the Flaming Attacks. It replaces it, but you all are saying that isn't good enough. All special rules not in effect have to be explicitly listed.

Actually it could easily have a USR "Chilled. Unlike other flame throwera, Pinky does not have flaming attacks". There are similar rules in other places.
Again I ask, if it wasn't written on the profile, just asnit is in the rules, would you think it was flaming?
Ps, I realise the object of that sentence changed a couple of times, too late for decent grammar.

I already told you.

And no, there are similar rules in place. A mortar does not say, unlike other Stone Throwers, the center hole doesn't do D6 multi wounds. Nor does Thundertusk or Scraplauncher.

And I ask you:

1. Do all Stone Throwers do D6 multi wounds under the center because it is written in 2 places in the description?
2. Are all bolt throwers S6 regardless of profile because it is written in 2 places in the description?
3. If an army book profile (like Pinky) has rules for Misfire, do they take an additional Misfire from their area of War Machines because there is no language that says they don't.

I don't see how any of the above can not be true if you say Pinky has Flaming Attacks. Further, just look at Skull Cannon a second. It's not hard to add Flaming Attacks. And they went out of their way to not add Warpflame and Flaming together and to say Warpflame isn't actual flame. To me it isn't RAI or RAW.