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I forget who said it, but the quote goes something like, "Victory goes to the guy who made the fewest mistakes".

Bear in mind, this is NOT in regards to a friendly game, but rather at a GT-level event.

Scenario: Your opponent moves 3x SM attack bikes armed with Multi-meltas towards your Avatar of Khaine. No other viable target for the multi-meltas is anywhere near the Avatar.
Its clear that they want to use the str 8 ap 1 weapons on your MC. Its also clear that they are unaware that your Avatar completely IGNORES these types of weapons.

Now, assuming you made every attempt to answer your opponents questions about your army BEFORE the game even started (exchanged army lists, etc.), my question is this:

Are you obligated to remind your opponent that those multi-meltas are useless against the Avatar? Or do you just let him make the error and respectfully smear his attack bikes next turn?

You wouldn't try to talk them out of a super risky deep strike, would you? No, you'd let them do it and hope that drop pod misshaped. You'd let them fire that demolisher cannon 2" from his own terminators, and hope it scattered on them. Or would you?

What say you, Dakka?

In a tournament, one is not obligated to help out an opponent at all. If they are unfamiliar with a unit, they should ask. If they miss a rapid fire opportunity, why do I need to inform him? I screwed myself in a tourney by coaching a newbie on how the army he was using worked.

In a word: no.

Tactical errors, while frustrating during a small friendly game, are one of the key players in an exciting tournament. Players on this level are expected to have a general idea of what they're facing, but if they want to take a gamble against something they haven't faced, well...that's war for you.

You have no obligation to remind this to your opponent, overall in a competitive game, since you should have explained at the beginning of the game what's in your army.

But in a friendly game, I do inform my opponents when they do something that is... let's say "surprising". Free to him to do it or not.
In your exemples, the multimelta shooting at the avatar will have NO effect. You know it for sure. If your opponents knows it, he won't do that because there is NO chance at all he can hurt the avatar. I would tell my opponent if he forgot that rule.

On the other hand, a risky deep strike, or a very close to your own troops artillery shoot has chances to fail, but it also might be a success. It's not exactly the same as doing a useless action, it's taking risks.

 Cortez667 wrote:
I forget who said it, but the quote goes something like, "Victory goes to the guy who made the fewest mistakes".

Bear in mind, this is NOT in regards to a friendly game, but rather at a GT-level event.

Scenario: Your opponent moves 3x SM attack bikes armed with Multi-meltas towards your Avatar of Khaine. No other viable target for the multi-meltas is anywhere near the Avatar.
Its clear that they want to use the str 8 ap 1 weapons on your MC. Its also clear that they are unaware that your Avatar completely IGNORES these types of weapons.

Now, assuming you made every attempt to answer your opponents questions about your army BEFORE the game even started (exchanged army lists, etc.), my question is this:

Are you obligated to remind your opponent that those multi-meltas are useless against the Avatar? Or do you just let him make the error and respectfully smear his attack bikes next turn?

You wouldn't try to talk them out of a super risky deep strike, would you? No, you'd let them do it and hope that drop pod misshaped. You'd let them fire that demolisher cannon 2" from his own terminators, and hope it scattered on them. Or would you?

What say you, Dakka?

My opinion is:

If your opponent makes a tactical mistake, like moving multi-melta attack bikes into assault range of the Avatar, you should capitalize on it -- that's what the game's about.

If your opponent makes a mandatory rules mistake - that is, misses something that the game doesn't say is optional - it's your responsibility to remind them.

robpace wrote:

 Cortez667 wrote:
I forget who said it, but the quote goes something like, "Victory goes to the guy who made the fewest mistakes".

Bear in mind, this is NOT in regards to a friendly game, but rather at a GT-level event.

Scenario: Your opponent moves 3x SM attack bikes armed with Multi-meltas towards your Avatar of Khaine. No other viable target for the multi-meltas is anywhere near the Avatar.
Its clear that they want to use the str 8 ap 1 weapons on your MC. Its also clear that they are unaware that your Avatar completely IGNORES these types of weapons.

Now, assuming you made every attempt to answer your opponents questions about your army BEFORE the game even started (exchanged army lists, etc.), my question is this:

Are you obligated to remind your opponent that those multi-meltas are useless against the Avatar? Or do you just let him make the error and respectfully smear his attack bikes next turn?

You wouldn't try to talk them out of a super risky deep strike, would you? No, you'd let them do it and hope that drop pod misshaped. You'd let them fire that demolisher cannon 2" from his own terminators, and hope it scattered on them. Or would you?

What say you, Dakka?

My opinion is:

If your opponent makes a tactical mistake, like moving multi-melta attack bikes into assault range of the Avatar, you should capitalize on it -- that's what the game's about.

If your opponent makes a mandatory rules mistake - that is, misses something that the game doesn't say is optional - it's your responsibility to remind them.

I kind of agree/disagree...

Regarding tactical errors as in above, that is whatever, if you are feeling nice, remind the guy otherwise let them learn from their mistakes...I generally let people redo stuff all the time as I'd like to get a game in against the best possible moves an opponent can make to learn from.

Regarding other errors, like say forgetting to move something or shoot something, this is more of an optional thing too and sort of fits in with tactical errors. I generally let people redo or go back and do something they forgot usually, but again this is up to the individual player.

If it is a certain rules thing like a special army/codex rule or something as simple as forgetting a weapon is twin-lined, I generally tell the person if they miss it and I catch it as I feel dirty taking advantage of someone not knowing their rules but otherwise no obligation to remind them to take advantage of such things.

Other rules such as reserves, Ld tests and so on are sort of a gray area as it depends on how much time has passed and what has occurred between the forgotten rule and what we are doing now...I mean if it is turn 4 and you forgot to roll for reserves until then it really is a moot point.

I had a opponent deepstrike a flying hive tyrant into my lines (which contained 6 hyperios). He did not relise that you cannot use iron arm on the turn you deepstrike, cue a dead tyrant and first blood, slay the warlord and a kill point. I did feel bad for it but hey its a tourny.

IT isnt up to you to educate people on things, I buy all the dexs for a reason, and try to get as many practice games in against everything for a reason.

In a bigger tournament, my enemy gets 0 help from me, I don't remind him of beneficial abilities his units have and I do not remind him of anything maleficial my units have unless he already executed an action.

In lesser important tournaments, I usually start helping people when they clearly can't win anymore and I don't want them to suffer a crushing defeat in 40k. In WHFB, as every point counts, I'm gonna take that 20:0.

Thanks for the in put.

My feeling is: I buy and read ALL of the codex's as they come out. I love competitive play, and a factor in that scene is knowing the rules of army's that you don't play.

At the same time, I don't really enjoy clubbing baby seals and taking a win from them. It seems cheap and in my opinion, results in an empty win.

I play both kinds of Eldar, and these codex's have rules that are unique to them. I always feel kind of dirty running my armies against opponents who are "new" to the game, as I feel like I'm pulling a trick on them.

 Cortez667 wrote:
I always feel kind of dirty running my armies against opponents who are "new" to the game, as I feel like I'm pulling a trick on them.

I completely agree, but that's more of a sentiment for friendly games IMO. Playing people in your local shop, or your buddies in your garage, is how you build up the experience and savvy that lets you succeed in tournament games.

Carry on.

TheEyeOfNight wrote:

 Cortez667 wrote:
I always feel kind of dirty running my armies against opponents who are "new" to the game, as I feel like I'm pulling a trick on them.

I completely agree, but that's more of a sentiment for friendly games IMO. Playing people in your local shop, or your buddies in your garage, is how you build up the experience and savvy that lets you succeed in tournament games.

Carry on.

I think for the majority of players, playing with mates is the end of the matter. I play with around 5-8 people depending on commitments etc...none of us are entertaining any thoughts at all about tournaments. Depends on the person, but I wouldn't get much from that experience, and I don't know a single player who would go to a tournie.

Depends on my opponent. I don't have any need to screw anyone over and enjoy getting the most out of my opponents, its a game. You're SUPPOSED to be trying to win, so competitive, friendly doesn't matter to me. If my opponent has done nothing to discourage me from thinking he's and upright, fun player, then I'd inform him and if he wanted to move the Attack Bikes back and redo their move I'd let him. If my opponent has already shown he's willing to indulge in some a$$hattery, then I'd let him shoot and explain to him the rules of my Avatar model.

Competition has many levels, if my opponent wants to be an a$$hat, I can too. If they want to be there to make the games fun, win/lose/draw in the spirit of friendly competition, I'm all for that too.

 Cortez667 wrote:


I play both kinds of Eldar, and these codex's have rules that are unique to them. I always feel kind of dirty running my armies against opponents who are "new" to the game, as I feel like I'm pulling a trick on them.

That's a difference. In the OP, you mentioned tournaments. People who are new to the game do not take part in tournaments...or shouldn't.

In a tournament, I would most likely not inform my opponent of his/her mistake. Especially in this case when the Avatar is relatively well known. In a friendly game, I would more then likely point out this tactical error and let them move their bikes back and do something different.

I agree with dracpanzer as well. If they were being a tool or clearly trying to WAAC, 2 can play that game.

The OP is a tactical mistake, so of course, the opponent isn't obligated to tell them not to make a tactical error.

What really bugs me, though, are players who play dumb on rules when it is to their advantage. A warmachine analogy comes to mind that most of you here wouldn't get but say for 40k, if the person doesn't ask their opponent to take a grounding or leadership test...

So even though the person remembers themselves and knows they should take it, they feign ignorance and do not.

I have seen this sooooooooooo much more than what I would call outright "cheating". Mostly, imo, because it's a grey area. Did the person actually forget? 100% possible. Only they can know their own mind. But that also means, that they can easily feign to have forgotten, and simply say "Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me, I'll take that leadership / grounding / etc test now" if called on it.

Agreed, in an RTT or casual game, i'd remind them and offer advice, in a GT game and the scenario (melta towards an avatar) the op mentioned, I'd let them learn the hard way probably, unless it was one of the opening games of the event/I knew the game was going to go my way.

But, I also hate the method some players use that RITIDES mentioned above. The experienced player just seeing what they can get away with and feigning ignorance if they get called on it.

An example would be: I'm firing my melta guns at your avatar, you either let me do it (and I don't correct you and remind you you're immune) or you do and I go "oh wow I forgot" sometimes accompanied by "I didnt know that, can I shoot something else then?".

That's the sort of mandatory thing I'll always remind my opponent of/feel like you have to help your opponent with. I'll remind him to take his FNP save if he has it, or that XYZ guy has an invul, or no, your cover save is actually 1 better, because it's night fight, or your turbo boosted last turn, etc etc - essentially correct any mistakes they make based on not knowing the rules (because the game needs to be played correctly) or forgetting something, but I won't fix tactical errors.

Keep in mind that not everyone is knowledgeable on every single army in the 40K universe. There are many players even on the GT scale that are not 100% familiar with units in other codices. Unless you told him before the game what all the Avatar's powers are, there is a good chance that he did not know the Avatar was immune to meltas. Now you are under no obligation to do so, but if this was the case (i.e. he was ignorant of the rules of your units), then I feel it s a d*ck move to let him do so. That is taking advantage of his ignorance. It's one thing if someone makes a tactical mistake or a risky play or forget a core rulebook rule. He is responsible for that. It is another thing to expect him to know about rules of other armies that he has not much experience with. He might not even know what questions to ask when looking over your army list.

So in short, if he knows about the rules for the Avatar (i.e. because I told him) but still goes after the Avatar with meltas, then that's on him. However, if he didn't know about it and goes after the Avatar, then I would remind him....even in a GT environment. Or at the very least, I would give him a hint...."Are you sure you want to do this?....."

Target wrote:
Agreed, in an RTT or casual game, i'd remind them and offer advice, in a GT game and the scenario (melta towards an avatar) the op mentioned, I'd let them learn the hard way probably, unless it was one of the opening games of the event/I knew the game was going to go my way.

But, I also hate the method some players use that RITIDES mentioned above. The experienced player just seeing what they can get away with and feigning ignorance if they get called on it.

An example would be: I'm firing my melta guns at your avatar, you either let me do it (and I don't correct you and remind you you're immune) or you do and I go "oh wow I forgot" sometimes accompanied by "I didnt know that, can I shoot something else then?".

That's the sort of mandatory thing I'll always remind my opponent of/feel like you have to help your opponent with. I'll remind him to take his FNP save if he has it, or that XYZ guy has an invul, or no, your cover save is actually 1 better, because it's night fight, or your turbo boosted last turn, etc etc - essentially correct any mistakes they make based on not knowing the rules (because the game needs to be played correctly) or forgetting something, but I won't fix tactical errors.

Obviously, I really agree with this post! I wish more competitive players would call pox and blasphemy upon the latter example. Feigning ignorance = absolutely NOT COOL, and can really take advantage of inexperienced players.

But a tactical mistake is a different animal and there's no obligation to correct someone... although honestly I often find myself doing this ("Are you sure you only want to move 6 inches?" "Wait why did I just tell you that ")

Typically, unless my opponent is being an ass, if there's something they very obviously meant to do and forgot (oh, we we just started the assault phase, I forgot to shoot with the guys I just deep struck with) I'll usually allow them to take the action or remind them before we move on, winning because your opponent had a temporary brainfart doesn't really say much for your own generalship and would take away from any victory you achieved. That said, there's a limit to that

I always try to help out my opponent, and I've punched myself for it a few times. In GTs I'll usually cut down on the tips, but in RTT play and lower I'll help some people out. Just two days ago I told my opponent his Obliterators were in Doom Range, and he needed to move before they died. I've also reminded people of Coteaz's ability to reroll the Seize the Initiative roll, and he passed the second time. My worst case of this was when I lost an RTT in 5th edition after I reminded my opponent that I had 10 gants on an objective out of his LoS. I swear I've gotten better at that though!

In a GT however, I try to change that. On the otherhand, I volunteer information once. So the first time the Doom comes in, I simply say that it happens in both shooting phases. At that point, its on him to remember, or ask. Same with wounding Strength vs Toughness. If my opponent rapid fires his Lasguns at a T7 Tervigon, I'm not going to remind him that Strength 3 can't wound Toughness 7 until after he rolls to hit. He knows its T7, but its not my job to read the to wound table to him. In the Avatar example, I would tell him at the beginning of the game and make sure he understood. After that its on him.

Brainfarts and tactical blunders is all part of the game. He lost because of his own carelessness, that's on him.

However, losing because of a special rule on an enemy unit that you did not know about....that, to me, is not cool. To me, that is what would cheapen my victory, especially if I knew about his ignorance (for something that is not entirely his responsibility) and let him do it anyways.

In a tourny, you play to win. In a friendly game, you play for fun. It's not fun if one player gets completely steamrolled - why I don't like playing with my brother, who only EVER plays extremely competitive lists.

 jy2 wrote:
Brainfarts and tactical blunders is all part of the game. He lost because of his own carelessness, that's on him.

However, losing because of a special rule on an enemy unit that you did not know about....that, to me, is not cool. To me, that is what would cheapen my victory, especially if I knew about his ignorance (for something that is not entirely his responsibility) and let him do it anyways.

Yep, and my post assumes you've explained everything to him pregame. I try to make sure with every opponent i ask him if he knows what the stuff in my list does, if he has any questions, and if anything is weird (for instance, the tau chips), I make a point of reminding him pre game (yea, the commander cna give his unit twin linked, and ignores cover, yea the ethereal does this and that).

But once in game, if I've already told you, I won't remind you again if it's a high level game.

 jifel wrote:
I always try to help out my opponent, and I've punched myself for it a few times. In GTs I'll usually cut down on the tips, but in RTT play and lower I'll help some people out. Just two days ago I told my opponent his Obliterators were in Doom Range, and he needed to move before they died. I've also reminded people of Coteaz's ability to reroll the Seize the Initiative roll, and he passed the second time. My worst case of this was when I lost an RTT in 5th edition after I reminded my opponent that I had 10 gants on an objective out of his LoS. I swear I've gotten better at that though!

In a GT however, I try to change that. On the otherhand, I volunteer information once. So the first time the Doom comes in, I simply say that it happens in both shooting phases. At that point, its on him to remember, or ask. Same with wounding Strength vs Toughness. If my opponent rapid fires his Lasguns at a T7 Tervigon, I'm not going to remind him that Strength 3 can't wound Toughness 7 until after he rolls to hit. He knows its T7, but its not my job to read the to wound table to him. In the Avatar example, I would tell him at the beginning of the game and make sure he understood. After that its on him.

Some of his mistakes is on him. Rulebook mistakes he should know, like the fact that S3 can't hurt T7. However, maybe he forgot that the tervigon was at T7, in which case I would remind him just that the tervigon is T7 (but not that S3 cannot hurt T7). The exception to this would be if he was actually a new player. As long as you told him in the beginning that the Doom's special ability affects units within 6" in both turns (and in cc as well), then there is no need to remind him again in the middle of the game. You did your part by telling him. Now it's on him to remember. Of course he is responsible for his own army. If he forgets his own special rules - like Coteaz's re-roll of Seize - then that is definitely on him. And reminding him that you have an unit on an objective is just you being a nice guy.

Yeah, in casual games, I would definitely let me opponent know about the mistakes that he was making, even at the expense of my winning the game. But in a GT (unless I knew my opponent was clearly new at the game), he has certain responsibilities. Knowing my codex, though useful for his own benefit, is not one of them. It is my responsibility to let him know but once I do, it's on him to remember.

Real war ain't fair. This past Saturday I noticed my opponent had forgotten about his heldrake in my depliyment zone for wo whole turns. Ni w this heldrake was roasting all my ork boys and I only could hit his rear with a big shoota on a double six roll. I waited till the last round to remind him. When that heldrake wouldn't beable to do too much more damage. I have learned MORE from my mistakes.. like you only forget once to add your extra charge attack for 30 boyz. But why should your opponent have to make sure your playing your army to your best ability.

robpace wrote:

 Cortez667 wrote:
I forget who said it, but the quote goes something like, "Victory goes to the guy who made the fewest mistakes".

Bear in mind, this is NOT in regards to a friendly game, but rather at a GT-level event.

Scenario: Your opponent moves 3x SM attack bikes armed with Multi-meltas towards your Avatar of Khaine. No other viable target for the multi-meltas is anywhere near the Avatar.
Its clear that they want to use the str 8 ap 1 weapons on your MC. Its also clear that they are unaware that your Avatar completely IGNORES these types of weapons.

Now, assuming you made every attempt to answer your opponents questions about your army BEFORE the game even started (exchanged army lists, etc.), my question is this:

Are you obligated to remind your opponent that those multi-meltas are useless against the Avatar? Or do you just let him make the error and respectfully smear his attack bikes next turn?

You wouldn't try to talk them out of a super risky deep strike, would you? No, you'd let them do it and hope that drop pod misshaped. You'd let them fire that demolisher cannon 2" from his own terminators, and hope it scattered on them. Or would you?

What say you, Dakka?

My opinion is:

If your opponent makes a tactical mistake, like moving multi-melta attack bikes into assault range of the Avatar, you should capitalize on it -- that's what the game's about.

If your opponent makes a mandatory rules mistake - that is, misses something that the game doesn't say is optional - it's your responsibility to remind them.

That.. By the rules, make sure both of us are on our game...but not knowing your enemy...thats on the opponent.

I always make my opponent the offer to flick through my Codex/Army Book at the start of a Tournament Game. Anything he's unsure of before the game, he should check there. So, if I were then to face this situation in game, I wouldn't remind him.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:

That.. By the rules, make sure both of us are on our game...but not knowing your enemy...thats on the opponent.

I'd have to disagree here. Is it fair to expect your opponent to buy all the codices other than his own and read through everything? Can you honestly tell me you know every single rule of every single army out there? Well, if you do, then you are the exception. Most people have some knowledge of their opponent's armies but in many cases, it isn't very deep. To expect them to know everything isn't fair. At least let them know beforehand. Then if they forgot, it's on them. You've already done your part. But to play against an opponent who obviously doesn't know the rules of your army and then purposefully withhold info from him, then that's on you.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Cortez667 wrote:


I play both kinds of Eldar, and these codex's have rules that are unique to them. I always feel kind of dirty running my armies against opponents who are "new" to the game, as I feel like I'm pulling a trick on them.

That's a difference. In the OP, you mentioned tournaments. People who are new to the game do not take part in tournaments...or shouldn't.

New players often go to GT's. Its actually a good way for them to get in 5-7 games straight. The end result being that they can walk away with both better understanding of the game through repetition, and exposure to a wide variety of different armies and playing styles.

jy2: I think at the bigger tournaments, its a reasonable expectation for your opponent to at least have a vague understanding of how each army works. Few (if any) players know EVERY single rule, but they should know what a Heldrake does, they should know what each codex's scoring units are, they should know that Draigo is a beast, etc.

 jy2 wrote:

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:

That.. By the rules, make sure both of us are on our game...but not knowing your enemy...thats on the opponent.

I'd have to disagree here. Is it fair to expect your opponent to buy all the codices other than his own and read through everything? Can you honestly tell me you know every single rule of every single army out there? Well, if you do, then you are the exception. Most people have some knowledge of their opponent's armies but in many cases, it isn't very deep. To expect them to know everything isn't fair. At least let them know beforehand. Then if they forgot, it's on them. You've already done your part. But to play against an opponent who obviously doesn't know the rules of your army and then purposefully withhold info from him, then that's on you.

In addition, not everyone knows all the Imperial Armours for tournaments that allows Forge World models. They are even less accessible than Games Workshop codices. It's the nature of the game and how Games Workshop does business. Balance for tournaments isn't Games Workshop's #1 priority. It's up to us players to provide that extra foundation of support to make our games more enjoyable. I agree with Jy2 100%.