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I was interested in doing an all mounted force for my first army, something smaller than most armies, but fast and with a lot of hitting power.
Bretonnia seems the obvious choice, but I've heard they're out of date and less then competitive in even casual games.
I looked at undead, because I like the idea of Hexwraiths especially, but they don't have any cav in core and they seem way to reliant on stuffing all their points into their lords.
I've got two Chaos armies in 40k already, so trying to avoid another chaos list.
I'm assuming that leaves me Empire, High Elves, and Dark Elves. How are each of them?
It should be Bretonnia, and they can still kick some ass, but they don't have that many different efficient builds
They do however are the best ones to break Steadfast due to the Lance formation
Empire and High Elves are the only other ones with heavy cav in Core if I'm nost mistaken
Empire cav is very sturdy (1+ AS) and you have an easy access to Hatred with Priests (plus of course sweet artillery support) and MC support from the Demigryphs
High Elf cav is very quick (M9), hits like a ton of brick (strikes in three ranks with ASF) and can be upgraded with a BotWD / high magic
Empire : heaviest armour + MC + artillery
High Elves : Fastest + ASF + BotWD
Bretonnia : Lance formation + French swears (think Monty Pythons' Holy Grail)
Well, I really enjoy my all cav chaos warriors army, but I can understand your reluctance to do the same. Given that's of the table, I believe that empire is your best bet.
TanKoL wrote: High Elf cav is very quick (M9), hits like a ton of brick (strikes in three ranks with ASF) and can be upgraded with a BotWD / high magic
I'd choose HE, too.
Core 2+AS heavy cav, core fast cav, three kinds of chariots, dragon princes and very interesting mounted character options.
Provided you don't play watchtower, it can even be competitive.
If you're willing to be patient for a few months before making your decision, Dark Elves are supposedly getting a new book in the fourth quarter of 2013. No telling what might happen to Dark Riders and Cold One Knights, or what new units might appear, but both DR and COK were really solid choices in 6th and 7th. It wouldn't be surprising if they were made good again.
Acardia wrote: I'd choose Empire. You could still compete at Watchtower with a cheap halbihorde. Great ranged cav options, and most importantly, Steam Tank.
I think this is a good call. Stubborn knights really add a lot to the list. It's also super easy to paint up.
You've got 2 types of fast cav, 2 flavors of heavy cav (with lances or great weapons), monstrous cav, and 3 chariots to round out the horse theme.
I almost always recommend Bretonnia when somebody wants to do an All Cav Force.
1) Lance Formation : This mitigates many of the weaknesses of Cav in 8th Edition. Ranks. Being able to get ranks at 3 models wide, combined with getting full attacks down the flanks of the formation on the charge meaning its not atypical to see Bretonnia Cav blocks with 4+ ranks, which can easily be enough to break steadfast. Also note that high elves are unorigional copy cats and stole the rule that lets Horses ignore barding. Bret Warhorses are move 8, and not slowed by Barding putting them on the upper curve for Cav movement speed.
2) Blessing of the Lady : This is what makes Bretonnia Knights more durable than Empire Knights despite having only a 2+ save. By sacraficing first turn Brettonnia gets a free ward save 6+ and 5+ against s5 or higher on all their Knights. Sure there are some restrictions like not being able to refuse challenges, and losing the blessing if you flee. But overall this is an incredibly powerful rule.
3) Pegasus Knights : Flying Monster Cav. Sure they don't put out the damage per point that units like Mournfang or Skull Crushers do, but being able to 20 inch flight march, and reform due to fast cav rules... really makes these one of the best units in the game for warmachine hunting, and setting up rear / flank charges.
4) Cheap Effective Wizards. Sure, Damsels / Prophetess cost slightly more than empire equivalents, BUT they come with free magic resistance lvl 1 / 2 respectively. Which of course stacks with the blessing of the Lady, so a sqaud joined by a Prophetess will have a 4++ vs Lore of Metal Spells. Also note that Lance Formation lets our Wizards deploy in the second rank... meaning putting a Crown of Command on a Prophetess is a great way to get a stubborn block of Knights. There is a bit of lmitation on spells, but really we have Life, Beasts, and Heavens which are plenty.
5) Free Stuff! Bretonnia gets several significant things for free. Battle Standard Bearer, while required and can be a burden in really low point games, is a free upgrade. Unit Champions in Knight Units are also free (although they can lose everybody the blessing if you refuse a challenge!). While it may not seem like much, but most Bretonnian Army tend to have well over 100 points in free upgrades in larger point games which can be significant.
People say Bretonnia is an older outdated book all the time, and it is. BUT the book as aged remarkably well, and many of its most powerful rules are directly relevant to 8th edition. The issue Bretonnia has, is that on the whole, all cav armies themselves have been nerfed, this isn't just true for Bretonnia, its also true for High Elves, and Empire. But at the end of the day, Bretonnia makes it work in a way that other all mounted armies simply cannot do.
Also note that while Bretonnia may have fewer choices than a lot of the newer books (Brets have around as much armybook diversity as Ogre Kingdoms, so on the lower end of the Bell Curve), they have a lot of different types of Knights- more than any other army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 15:30:18
I would like to point something that is VERY wrong in your post!
Also note that high elves are unorigional copy cats and stole the rule that lets Horses ignore barding. Bret Warhorses are move 8, and not slowed by Barding putting them on the upper curve for Cav movement speed.
It's a big lie!
Bretonnian horses are Heavy Chargers with equestrian manliness and bulging muscles and sh*t!
High Elves horses are just pampered weaklings wearing designer lightweight barding
Going to be different and say Wood elves or Dark elves. While glade riders are expensive and die to missile fire, no melee army could ever hope to catch up with them or get a charge without your say so. Wildriders hit like a freight train in first and second round of combat and can easily punch through ranks, especially when buffed with life/beat magic. Warhawks are premium war machine hunters which can also turn the tide of combat. Eagles preform the task they ever have, as redirectors, and are very good at it. All this combined with strong heroes and lords (Some of which synergise very well with wildriders to make them almost unstoppable) and very complementary lores of magic make for a very fast, very deadly army which picks its battles and precisely cuts an army apart.
Those two armies have a big issue when it comes down to cavalry:
no solid (sturdy) Core cav choice
the OP wants to do an all cav army And Wild Riders, sure they hit kind of hard (not more so than Silver Helms or human Knights really) ... they also die horribly when someone farts in their general direction, so they don't attack at all in the next rounds of combat
Saw an interesting thread at Warseer of a minimal WoC army. Almost entirely cavalry (easy to replace the Shaggoth w/Skullcrushers or a Hellcannon) and only 9 models, add a few depending how you swap the Shaggoth.
TanKoL wrote: I would like to point something that is VERY wrong in your post!
Also note that high elves are unorigional copy cats and stole the rule that lets Horses ignore barding. Bret Warhorses are move 8, and not slowed by Barding putting them on the upper curve for Cav movement speed.
It's a big lie!
Bretonnian horses are Heavy Chargers with equestrian manliness and bulging muscles and sh*t!
High Elves horses are just pampered weaklings wearing designer lightweight barding [/quote
Also high elves had the rule before Bretonnians even existed as an army
I don't see how Bretonnia has a problem dealing with big units (except ridiculously huge ones, but that's like anyone)
It's actually the only Cav army that's good at breaking steadfast as you can have up to 6 ranks in a Cav unit
And of course you have the best Stone Thrower in the game to soften the blocks up ...
TanKoL wrote: I don't see how Bretonnia has a problem dealing with big units (except ridiculously huge ones, but that's like anyone)
It's actually the only Cav army that's good at breaking steadfast as you can have up to 6 ranks in a Cav unit
And of course you have the best Stone Thrower in the game to soften the blocks up ...
I can avoid that Stone Thrower, right? When I say all cav I mean it.
Sigvatr wrote: Depends. Life helps you to deal with big units, your main weakness, whereas Beasts makes your individual units more durable / stronger.
Which is what I want. I'd rather avoid using magic all together, but WHFB doesn't seem to really allow that, at least not without leaving yourself pretty heavily gimped. So if I've got to use magic, I want it to support my cav.
I'd go dark elves. You get a lot of chaff, raw casting power and a bus that wrecks 90% of warhammer. Seriously. I've not seen a thing it hasn't crushed in combat.
Shamgi wrote: Interesting, so Bretonnia can still bring it.
Well then, I do believe I will give them a good try.
Any advice on how to build the army? I planned on going Lore of Beasts, though I've been told Life is better for them.
The Trebuchet isn't needed. It is one of the best warmachines in the game, and criminally undercosted, but it is not strictly speaking necessary! As long as you plan for that, you will have the chance to bring other things which are capable of dealing.
As for magic I would actually go for Lore of Heavens on your level 4. In an all mounted army, getting the charge is incredibly important, and not only that but getting the charge against important units. Heavens offers you some great chaff blasting spells (thunderbolt + chain lightning) which get added bonuses against flying things which are one of the few things able to outmaneuver your knights. Heavens has some good blessings and hexes as well, Harmonic Convergence is especially powerful on Knights who generally wound on a 2+ with their lances, and have a 2+ save. Re-Rolling that is excellent. You've also potentially got the Comet, which is awesome if you find yourself up against Dwarves or something, go for irresistable force, and droped a souped up commet into the warmachine farm. You can also use the Commet defensively to protect your flanks by creating a no mans land where enemy units will be unwilling to travel.
Lore of Beasts is solid as well- Amber Spear can gut a warmachine if it goes off, Wildform is always good, and Savage Beast can potentially be devestating in a Hero Spam Build.
LIfe is allright. I would rate it below the other 2. Don't get suckered into wasting more power dice than Throne of Vines is worth. Its a great spell, but if you are casting 4 dice at it per turn, and your opponent just dispells it in their turn with 2 dice, you are operating at a 2 magic dice disadvantage every turn- which can be crippling. Throw 2 dice at it- if it sticks it sticks. The big issue with life is that you really want it for Dwellers for weakening big blocks, but if you focus too much on Thrones you won't actually have the dice to DO anything in the magic phase, and if you 6 dice Dwellers without Throne, you stand a good chance of exploding in the dead center of a unit of knights- potentially doing more damage to you than to the enemy. Add to that the signature spell is wasted on Bretonnia who will generally all have the Blessing of the Lady anyway.
Overall I would say go Heavens on the level 4, and Beasts on level 1s or 2s you bring. Bringing 3 Wizards is great because it lets you get a Dispel Scroll, the Silver Mirror, and the Feedback Scroll. This is a great magic defense kit, you've got double dispel scroll, and a potential mage snipe- since the Silver Mirror causes an s6 hit and acts like a dispel scroll, which can be followed up later with a Feedback Scroll. . You don't need to worry about Ward Saves, as our Girls have the blessing of the Lady. Also toss the Crown of Command on the Prophetess. She'll be protected in the second rank, and is a great way to get a big ol block of steadfast knights to tie down certain enemy units to help you maneuver around him.
Also have a look at this guy.
Paladin- Royal Pegasus, the Wyrmlance, whatever else Hes somewhat expensive, but highly mobile and has a breath weapon. Since you aren't running a Trebuchet having a highly mobile flame template may just be what the doctor ordered. I personally use Virtue of Audacity for the remaining points as I like the re-rolls to hit and wound vs s5 or higher enemies as it pairs well with the flaming attacks from the Wyrmlance. Charmed Shield is also a great choice as it lets you dodge a cannon ball or something.
Also try to squeeze in some Mounted Yeomen. Small squads of 5 with Shields and a Musician. These gives you cheap chaff drops and re-directors, which can be helpful in gaining adventageous charges and baiting enemy frenzy units. They also have arrows- which will do absolutely nothing. They are also great at drawing out Night Gobblin Fanatics, and other tasks you might not want to send your Knights after. They are also respectable warmachine hunters, although small squads have some trouble with Elven and Dwarven machines due to re-rolls or toughness respectively.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/07/31 12:48:04
If you are curious how they play as mostly cav, I have some battle reports on my blog.
www.redcrusaderbattlereports.wordpress.com
I would not bring an *all* cav force with either though.
High Elves are the strongest right now and their units are cheaper. Silver Helms are cheaper than KotR, Dragon Princes are cheaper than Grail Knights.
Silver Helms, Reavers, Dragon Princes, 2 frost phoenixes, couple bolt throwers, etc. then fill your points out however. I would suggest lore of life.
WIthout a doubt - this is the cav army right now. Empire is good, chaos is good, bretonnia is good, but the High Elves are the winners right now. ASF re-rolls, cheaper guys, Movement 9, etc. Dragon Princes also get a 6 up ward save and a 2 up against fire just because.
Bretonnia is still really tough though - you have to bring *big* lances and double charge to really insure victory. Take a big block of peasants, some peg knights, and 2 trebs. Fill the rest out however you wish. I'm a fan of lore of life here as well.
akaean wrote: I almost always recommend Bretonnia when somebody wants to do an All Cav Force.
1) Lance Formation : This mitigates many of the weaknesses of Cav in 8th Edition. Ranks. Being able to get ranks at 3 models wide, combined with getting full attacks down the flanks of the formation on the charge meaning its not atypical to see Bretonnia Cav blocks with 4+ ranks, which can easily be enough to break steadfast. Also note that high elves are unorigional copy cats and stole the rule that lets Horses ignore barding. Bret Warhorses are move 8, and not slowed by Barding putting them on the upper curve for Cav movement speed.
2) Blessing of the Lady : This is what makes Bretonnia Knights more durable than Empire Knights despite having only a 2+ save. By sacraficing first turn Brettonnia gets a free ward save 6+ and 5+ against s5 or higher on all their Knights. Sure there are some restrictions like not being able to refuse challenges, and losing the blessing if you flee. But overall this is an incredibly powerful rule.
3) Pegasus Knights : Flying Monster Cav. Sure they don't put out the damage per point that units like Mournfang or Skull Crushers do, but being able to 20 inch flight march, and reform due to fast cav rules... really makes these one of the best units in the game for warmachine hunting, and setting up rear / flank charges.
4) Cheap Effective Wizards. Sure, Damsels / Prophetess cost slightly more than empire equivalents, BUT they come with free magic resistance lvl 1 / 2 respectively. Which of course stacks with the blessing of the Lady, so a sqaud joined by a Prophetess will have a 4++ vs Lore of Metal Spells. Also note that Lance Formation lets our Wizards deploy in the second rank... meaning putting a Crown of Command on a Prophetess is a great way to get a stubborn block of Knights. There is a bit of lmitation on spells, but really we have Life, Beasts, and Heavens which are plenty.
5) Free Stuff! Bretonnia gets several significant things for free. Battle Standard Bearer, while required and can be a burden in really low point games, is a free upgrade. Unit Champions in Knight Units are also free (although they can lose everybody the blessing if you refuse a challenge!). While it may not seem like much, but most Bretonnian Army tend to have well over 100 points in free upgrades in larger point games which can be significant.
People say Bretonnia is an older outdated book all the time, and it is. BUT the book as aged remarkably well, and many of its most powerful rules are directly relevant to 8th edition. The issue Bretonnia has, is that on the whole, all cav armies themselves have been nerfed, this isn't just true for Bretonnia, its also true for High Elves, and Empire. But at the end of the day, Bretonnia makes it work in a way that other all mounted armies simply cannot do.
Also note that while Bretonnia may have fewer choices than a lot of the newer books (Brets have around as much armybook diversity as Ogre Kingdoms, so on the lower end of the Bell Curve), they have a lot of different types of Knights- more than any other army.
Agreed, and also remember
6) The Virtue of Heroic Killing Blow and the item that prevents a character from taking more thna one wound per phase.
7) Mounted Yeomen are decent light cavalry and no one cares if they run, so you get excellent chaff to support a cavalry list.
I would talk about the low low cost of bows in a Bret list and the underpriced trebuchet, and the Skaven@arms and Virtue of General Lite for peasants, but not in a cavalry only list. Bretonnians can still bring it, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
TanKoL wrote: I don't see how Bretonnia has a problem dealing with big units (except ridiculously huge ones, but that's like anyone) It's actually the only Cav army that's good at breaking steadfast as you can have up to 6 ranks in a Cav unit And of course you have the best Stone Thrower in the game to soften the blocks up ...
6 ranks in a Cav unit means you will get flanked immediately and lose combat, not to mention you will hardly be able to move on the battlefield without reforming a lot. Plus: you now have a giant unit that's worth a lot of points and can be easily countered. Goblins, as a horde army, are another case as they completely counter heavily armored armies, but Skaven will also make short work of such a unit. Tie them up in Slaves, WLC, dead. The problem is that while you may kill more models with such a big lance than a regular cavalry unit, you will still be vastly outnumbered as every reliable tarpit unit is far cheaper than your average Bretonnian cavalry model. Thus a lot of people take Lore of Life to deal with those units, soften them up, then rock in with the lance.
Keep in mind: I do not want to downtalk Bretonnia, I still think they are a great army. Limiting them to only cavalry, although being a really nice fluff decision, will also weaken your army's strength by a good shot. I'd always take a double charge over one single big unit though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/31 14:07:11
(354) 27 Goblin Wolf Riders- Short Bows, Shields, Full Command, Howlerz (202) 14 Wolf Riders- Spears, Shields, Bows, Musician, Standard (240) 15 Spider Riders- Short Bows, Full Command
(388) 13 Savage Orc Boar Boyz- Big Uns, Shield, Spear, Full Command, Standard of Dicipline
(60) 5 Squig Hoppers (60) 5 Squig Hoppers
a Bucket of Poisoned Arrows with Quick to Fire and Fast Cav potentially wounding on a 5+ to hit if Blessing of the Spider God is successfully cast for Epic Lulz.. And the Boar Boys with a 4+/5++ come crashing up the middle with a bucket of attacks and projecting a leadership 10 bubble. Would be a ton of fun, and highly maneuverable as movement 9 on the wolves and fast cav reform rules are excellent
Green is da best, just sayin.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/07/31 19:02:10
I've always been a fan of an Empire Cav army. Lots of 1+ armor saves, warrior priests for Hatred and their bound spells, battle mages letting you access all the BRB lores, and then artillery support.
Cav charge forward while cannons, mortars, etc hit the enemy from afar. Battle mages add an extra punch with either augments or hexes.
Canifex Quote: I love Rhinos. They are crunchy on the outside, and soft and chewy on the inside.
The hands down coolest all cav list? Goblins. Mainly because there aren't too many true Goblin armies out there. It'll suck be hard to earn points but damn if it isn't cool!
I play all cav high elves when I'm not running some sweet version of a star dragon list.
Cav-prince with the Giant Blade + Star Lance (I personally prefer the Ogre Blade) BsB backed up by 8 dragon princes with the BoTWD makes a pretty nasty and hard hitting unit.
Reavers are super fast. they move 30" during vanguard and their first turn! Add in walk between worlds for more shenanigans.
Silver Helms are cheap and durable medium cav -- great chaff clearers.
And of course monsters to back up your knights, frosties add some much needed grinding punch.
As a Chaos player i will guess a "mostly cav" army would have these units:
Core with Chariots and Marauders plus a few warhounds.
Special with Chaos knights as a hammer
BSB on a mount, and a Lord on demonic or disc depending what you use em for.
Basically have the warhounds vanguard in front to block off charge paths, Marauders to flank off anything you dont like, Knights do their thing, Chariots do their thing
thelordcal wrote: The hands down coolest all cav list? Goblins. Mainly because there aren't too many true Goblin armies out there. It'll suck be hard to earn points but damn if it isn't cool!
That actually sounds kind of fun, if totally ineffective. And way, way too many models.
I guess I did a Bret list, but I dunno if I should be posting it here or in the army list section for comments.
thelordcal wrote: The hands down coolest all cav list? Goblins. Mainly because there aren't too many true Goblin armies out there. It'll suck be hard to earn points but damn if it isn't cool!
That actually sounds kind of fun, if totally ineffective. And way, way too many models.
Yeah model count hurts as w any horde army. I made up an all cav gob army one night but its on my home computer. Sounds like a ton of fun but it was also stupidly expensive. Lots of spiders, wolves and chariots tho. I would think all cav but orcs too might have a bit more staying power but the Goblin only theme rocks
3000
4000 Deamons - Mainly a fantasy army now.
is excellent. You've also potentially got the Comet, which is awesome if you find yourself up against Dwarves or something, go for irresistable force, and droped a souped up commet into the warmachine farm. You can also use the Commet defensively to protect your flanks by creating a no mans land where enemy units will be unwilling to travel.
. You don't need to worry about Ward Saves, as our Girls have the blessing of the Lady. Also toss the Crown of Command on the Prophetess. She'll be protected in the second rank, and is a great way to get a big ol block of steadfast knights to tie down certain enemy units to help you maneuver around him.
