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not sure whether this should be in tactics or not, but its more about a unit choice...

so I have been rubbing my hands together in the UK, not because it's cold, but because I've been eyeing up a nice Eldar kick off army under Alaitoc's banner. so as my eyes run over the GW site looking for Rangers, I come across the Banshee models. I must say I love them (even though you can only see 3 of them), and now I am itching to have some in my travel bag back to Qatar. problem is, I can only really choose ONE of the units - Rangers or Banshees.

I don't particularly care that I am playing Alaitoc and hence should spread the board with Rangers like butter over toast, but, even though I am not a competitive player, I would like to know how they size up to Rangers on the field. I don't particualry care about buying other aspects yet, but how do Banshees compare to, say, Striking Scorpions? I can't answer these questions myself because I don't have the codex yet.

so, a helping hand from the other craftworlds out there please?!

GS

Banshees = bad. They are probably the worst unit in the codex.
Why?
They have to walk everywhere (no assault or open top vehicle). They are T3 with 4+ armour. They carry power weapons (affording them a lot of attention). They're S3. They don't have grenade and the mask doesn't work like it used to. So attacking through terrain means they attack at I1 (true your enemy probably will too). They cost a bit too.
I think that sums them up.
Avoid them.
Rangers are universally better just by having guns 6th edition is not so kind to HtH.

Boniface wrote:
Banshees = bad. They are probably the worst unit in the codex.
Why?
They have to walk everywhere (no assault or open top vehicle). They are T3 with 4+ armour. They carry power weapons (affording them a lot of attention). They're S3. They don't have grenade and the mask doesn't work like it used to. So attacking through terrain means they attack at I1 (true your enemy probably will too). They cost a bit too.
I think that sums them up.
Avoid them.
Rangers are universally better just by having guns 6th edition is not so kind to HtH.

couldn't you deploy them in a serpent or falcon, whizz them up to the enemy lines, disembark into cover and then assault next turn? I quite like their cost (surprisingly) because it puts me closer to 1000 without having to buy more models. with power weapons it sounds like they will be a lot of trouble, and if they are prioritised because of this, then that's exactly what I want.

OK so they might not be good value overall compared to Rangers, but how do they compare to the other aspects?

thanks for your input anyways, its all been taken on board and I understand what you mean, so don't take this as being aggressively defensive

GA

They are bad compared to other aspects, Striking Scorpions are the better buy when you want a choppy unit for Eldar. By all means, use a Wave Serpent, but they'll get shot to pieces once they step outside of it.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
They are bad compared to other aspects, Striking Scorpions are the better buy when you want a choppy unit for Eldar. By all means, use a Wave Serpent, but they'll get shot to pieces once they step outside of it.

OK, so how do Scorpions get the edge over Banshees? I seriously have no idea - I need a codex!

also, don't Banshees get an executioner? helpful against tanks? again, no idea, but wouldn't Banshees fair better against vehicles and heavy infantry, while Scorpions are great against hordes and whatnot?

thanks again

GA

P.S. oh yeah I would deploy the Banshees in cover so they dont get shot to bits as easily

Craft world uthwe says
Banshees<striking scorpions/rangers.

Nobody realizes how good striking scorpions are until their I combat, and then it's to late. The second you tell anyone that all ten of these answer models have PWs, they die. Quickly.

Rangers stay out of site whole game on objective and have fun partying. >

ninjafiredragon wrote:
Craft world uthwe says
Banshees<striking scorpions/rangers.

Nobody realizes how good striking scorpions are until their I combat, and then it's to late. The second you tell anyone that all ten of these answer models have PWs, they die. Quickly.

Rangers stay out of site whole game on objective and have fun partying. >

so Scorpions have power weapons? hmm I like....

GA

I say, get the one you like the most. Yes, Banshees are the least effective cc unit Eldar have but don't let that stop you. If you're ambivalent or are more of a player than a hobbyist, then get rangers. They'll add more to your army.

I don't want to put you off banshees if you want them btw.
Just telling you the facts.

Scorpions lost their edge a little this edition.
But here's the comparison.
Banshees have power weapons making them useful against anything but ideally space marines.
Scorpions have normal weapons.
Banshees have a mask that reduces enemy I by 5 but makes no difference if they are I1 or whatever.
Scorpions have plasma grenades making them able to assault through cover and take on low av vehicles.
Banshees s3 scorpions s4
Executioner = S5 scorp claw = power fist at I 6.
Scorpions have infiltrate.
Banshees 4+ scorpions 3+

That's just a few things.

If you want CC go for scorpions always.
I literally can't see ever using banshees any more.

Rangers are troops = scoring
Stealth/shrouded (I forget which)
Snipers (precision shots) with 36" (I think)

But if you want banshees then get banshees.
It's your army and you should always do what you want.

Boniface wrote:
I don't want to put you off banshees if you want them btw.
Just telling you the facts.

Scorpions lost their edge a little this edition.
But here's the comparison.
Banshees have power weapons making them useful against anything but ideally space marines.
Scorpions have normal weapons.
Banshees have a mask that reduces enemy I by 5 but makes no difference if they are I1 or whatever.
Scorpions have plasma grenades making them able to assault through cover and take on low av vehicles.
Banshees s3 scorpions s4
Executioner = S5 scorp claw = power fist at I 6.
Scorpions have infiltrate.
Banshees 4+ scorpions 3+

That's just a few things.

If you want CC go for scorpions always.
I literally can't see ever using banshees any more.

Rangers are troops = scoring
Stealth/shrouded (I forget which)
Snipers (precision shots) with 36" (I think)

But if you want banshees then get banshees.
It's your army and you should always do what you want.

now that's what I wanted to see - a good old comparison! thankyou for that, it helps a lot.

OK so scorpions are better generally, do they cost more or less? and how do they fare against hordes and stuff? do they get more attacks than Banshees?

personally I like a little challenge nowadays. I've played IG for 5 years or so, and orks for a least 3. recently I've dumbed down my lists to give me a good run of skill, because I get bored of using units everyone uses "because they are the best". so perhaps Banshees are down my alley?

I think what I will do is get Banshees, closely followed by Rangers and then Scorpions. don't get me wrong here I agree (statistic wise) that Scorpions are the better option, so I will definitely get a few. but currently I am playing with some new players who I've found, so taking a weaker unit might suit them and me.

again, don't think I'm being dismissive - the real question was whether or not I should get Banshees or something else first with my budget. I was always going to get them - they just look too good

now I feel like a but thanks for all your advice - its been very helpful to help me plan my future Eldar purchases.

GA

I'm right with you on the models GA. I love my Banshees, and I've been trying to figure out a way to use them. I have one version I want to try. If you take Jain Zar as your warlord, then upgrade to the exarch, you can move 6" then run 4" (acrobatic + Jain Zar's warlord trait) + a rerollable d6".

That should average out to 13" a turn when not assaulting. If you put Jain Zar at the front (especially if you can fortune them) she can tank all the small arms fire with her 2+ (hopefully rerollable) save. Anything that is AP 2 she can either take (3W with EW) or use Look out Sir. If Jain eventually goes down on the way in the exarch steps up with a 3+ save.

If it takes more than 2 turns to get them into charge range you have other problems, and hopefully JZ and the Exarch eat up so much fire that you still hit with 9 banshees to hack N slash.

Now unfortunately the mask is utter rubbish this edition and you will still probably lose almost as many as you kill thanks to simulswings, but they SHOULD at least get where they are going barring inordinate amounts of attention going their way. Then again if your opponent fires half his army or more at them the first two turns, then the rest of your force is free to act, isn't it?

That's all theory so far. I intend to try it out. If anyone else has or does, let me know if it works.

I was like you once, thinking banshees can't be that bad. So I bought a box, and used em to moderate effectiveness as a counter assault unit against nids. For 110 point, i could have bought something better but they were alright-ish.

Then I fought any other army. The thing with cover hopping, they will be in the open at some point. And even if they're not, cover isn't some auto "I live" thing. It's a 4+/5+ save, so offers very little help to their survivability. They never make combat because all it take is 1 unit to shoot em and they die. Worst unit I spent money on, damn impulse buys...

But get rangers or scorpions, they are wayyy better


Von Chogg

thanks for the extra replies guys

@Krylon - this seem feasible, might give it a go, thankyou and don't Banshees look great?!

@ Von Chogg - yes I agree with what I've seen and heard that Banshees are not the greatest value, and I will be investing in Rangers and Scorpions later. I can't argue with your experience on the tabletop, and I've taken it into account. Y'see I like to take risks in this game - risks with rewards. its a dice game after all. maybe Banshees aren't worth the risk - I'll find out I'm sure.

speaking of dice, I agree that cover is no bane of death. but a little cover always helps a charge. they will be in the open eventually, yes, but that will be in my turn, and hopefully I can pop out and charge. that's the risk in it! of course the battlefield is a huge contributing factor, but so it is for almost every other unit on the board. what are rangers without cover? scorpions without anything to infiltrate behind?

that's just my view, but thankyou for your input. you still have made me think about my choice, and I'll make sure I add Scorpions into the army as a reliable backup

GA

I've not tried it, but try to get the Banshees to charge last.
Take a squad of GJB or harlequins to make the initial charge, and soak up the overwatch, and the Banshees can go in next.
The thing to watch is charging into cover, as mentioned.

Hi GA,

Banshees are at best, ok. I fairly like the models, but you know what? I like the Ranger models even better! You can get Banshees if you want, that's ok because when I played back in 2011 I just bought all the aspect warriors because they look cool. And I play my whole army for fun. But when you start to get even a little competitive Banshees fall down.

This is all my opinion. I ignore the Elites section nowadays. Howling Banshees? Unusable. Striking Scorpions? Incompatible with the natural shooty Eldar army. Fire Dragons? Too specialised, too expensive. Harlequins? Too expensive, as squishy as banshees, not to mention impossible to paint (you should have seen the painting instructions in the old 'dex for the red and blue diamonds, they were bull, no human can do millimetre thick even diamonds with HIGHLIGHTS). Wraithguard/blades? Definitely the contender, except I don't like wraith units.

Fyi:

Ranger: 12 pts
Banshee: 15 pts
Scorpion: 17 pts
Dragon: 22 pts
Harlequin: 18 pts
Wraithguard/blade: 32 pts

The Ranger models are beautiful, except 2 out of the 5 snipers snapped off when I tried to straighten them (finecast sucks camel bollocks) and I had to use superglue to put them back on, they're really fragile...

Since you're doing an Alaitoc army (I was thinking of doing it but the yellow didn't please me so I made the colour scheme blue and white, my craftworld is called Meia-Lyn) I would go for 2 squads of rangers, the models are just so satisfying for some reason (esp. for alaitoc). I have one squad of rangers and that's good enough for me.

Going back to my point I wouldn't go for any sort of close combat, shooting is imo more fun anyway :s Definitely your first buy should be dire avengers, good in any army I promise, I would change the colour scheme though, alaitoc is also blue (I would suggest red or black). If you want expensive units then you could get dark reapers they come in at just under 195 points if you kit them out. They would fit in well with your army, and they aren't that far away from the exodite fluff and stuff. I'll give you this for some ideas/guidelines (I'm a list builder soz..):

105: Farseer w/ singing spear (Or Illic if you have the fever ^^ <3)

160: 10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch, power axe and shimmershield (did GW already make it a 5 man pack? fuk you gw I got my DAs a few weeks before they changed it )
60: 5 Rangers
60: 5 Rangers
61: 3 Windriders w/ shuriken cannon

121: 6 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch and sunrifle

150: Fire Prism w/ holofields and shuriken cannon
195: 5 Dark Reapers w/ Exarch, tempest launcher, Fast Shot and Night Vision
70: War Walker w/ two bright lances

= 982

Just some ideas, I picked some Alaitoc friendly units (I'm vexed since I might be biased - I have a fire prism and war walker which LOOKS like an alaitoc one but its not and I don't know if that is influencing my choices argh) I think Dark Reapers are definitely good for you, they tick all the boxes. You might even want a Crimson Hunter (Exarch) which is 180 points, a good filler but you probably won't have flyers in 1000pts.

Also warp spiders are the best right now, if you want them or not is up to you. Hope I helped + good luck fellow Son of Khaine! (can someone tell me if we like khaine or not? he seems like a hothead with the vaul shenanigans + war in heaven etc. - between two eldar gods? - , yet we still have avatars?! whaa..)

Skinnereal - another nice idea for a strategy I must try, thankyou!

that is a very nice reply IcyFireKnight - thank you very much!

yes yes I agree, Rangers are pure gold, and they were originally going to be my initial purchase, and don't get me wrong they are next on my list. I think I might use the colour scheme in the June WD for my Rangers (look in the showcase bit), so that's covered.

yeah the elites in most armies don't weigh out well against, say, their standard units. but I love running small units across the board in an all out mayhem streak. perhaps Banshees aren't the answer - whatever!

and don't apologise for being a list maker! its not every day you get a list made for you. how touching! jokes aside its a nice lost for the future, but currently this is all I have for now.

Farsser with spear
Banshees
DA
guardians and wave serpent
war walker
wraithlord

I'm on a bit of a tight budget right now, but hopefully I can order some stuff to be sent over back in Qatar. soon I plan to get all the aspects, just like you (perhaps not reapers, not a fan of thus models much - they just don't look sleek like the other models! hopefully that will change, along with my wallet size....

thanks again, and I hope you are giving this kind of advice to others on dakka - that was really nice and helpful! keep it up, happy hunting

GA

Heyo is there a link I can have for that ranger colour scheme? And yus hurry hurry for dem rangers!

And you've already got banshees x) watever! You can use them as you like. They are fun though, except the dying to overwatch part.

Thank you for your list too :3 Definitely rangers next, since you don't like dark reapers...probably a fire prism would be nice after that, maybe a small unit of 3 or 6 jetbikes? I've got 3 and they're uber-kule :0 except find something else to go on those bikes, the guardians on them...just...no. Also your opinion on swooping hawks? As far as I'm concerned they are utter bausses.

Also what came in the banshee pack? does the finecast give you options for the triskele/executioner/mirrorswords? from the metal banshees I got years ago I just equipped her with mirrorswords because they are 100% completely fuckking epic but executioner is probably the best, S5 AP2 attacks are ALWAYS good, even if you lose one attack to two-handedness.

105: Farseer w/ singing spear
160: 10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch, power axe (it's like an executioner but unwieldy) and shimmershield
105: 10 Guardians w/ shuriken cannon (did you magnetise?)
145: Wave Serpent w/ twin-linked scatter lasers, shuriken cannon and holo-fields
61: 3 Windriders w/ shuriken cannon
60: 5 Rangers
60: 5 Rangers

120: 6 Howling Banshees w/ Exarch, executioner and Shield of Grace (try to get a challenge off)

70: War Walker w/ scatter laser/starcannon
150: Fire Prism w/ holo-fields and shuriken cannon
120: Wraithlord with whatever the feth you have on it

cba to work out the points cost LOL sorry xD But it's quite close to my 1000 points list

105: Farseer with singing spear

160: 10 Dire Avengers with power axe and shimmershield
110: 10 Guardians with starcannon
160: Wave Serpent with twin-linked scatter lasers, shuriken cannon, holo-fields and vectored engines
60: 5 Rangers
61: 3 Windriders with shuriken cannon

121: 6 Swooping Hawks with sunrifle

70: War Walker with scatter laser and starcannon
150: Fire Prism with holo-fields and shuriken cannon

Feel free, it's almost like we have the same blue army

Aren't we all on a tight budget...Imho I can just ask my dad to order some more whenever I want, as long as it's reasonable. Also I have to email him like "hey dad can I get some more warhammer unfortunately it's going to cost 80 quid. thanks!" and he's like "done" LOL!

I've got 700 points right, next order is going to be wave serpent, swooping hawks and BRB! have a nice day




Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Try to paint everything you have before moving on, or at least don't get everything just to play with it. Grey models on the table suck! It's ok in theory to get 1500 points first, because then you can quickly get on the TT. But I wouldn't go beyond that until you paint your models Exodite Cobalt *-*

thanks again - more helpful advice!

I'd send a photo of the page in the WD mag but I don't have it with me here in the UK I'll try and find a way round it. I haven't got Banshees yet - they are in the post - I'll let you know the options when I get them, but I am certain the executioner is in there

oh man I'm a freak when it comes to having all my models painted on the tabletop I've made my small group of friends swear that, after summer, they won't use any unpainted models. I just feel so guilty using grey models when I know I can pick up my paintbrush and have a great time doing it! so don't worry, I'll send some fully painted battle reports to the dakka forums after summer. first I've gotta do the Eldar....

swooping hawks? nice models, like the play style that you have to adapt to use them, I might bump them up on my order list.... hopefully soon I will have a bigger budget - I'm starting to pay my way at 15 and a half. all I will say is that if you do school work experience, then do your absolute best, because they might offer you paid work after!

thanks again for all your help - its people like you that keep me checking the dakka forums everyday!

GA

Look! Two sirs exchanging amiableness!

- You suck
- Thank you
- Me too, my friend hasn't even painted Marneus Calgar yet, yet he still uses his S10 AP1 orbital bombardment, so legit
- Yes, Swooping Hawks rule
- Cool, I'm entering work experience next year! I shall do my absolute best, why not?
- Backatcha' homie

Off to have some crispy duck, *sunglasses*

It sounds like Banshees are in a similar place to Guard Rough Riders. Very fragile, but highly mobile troops. Maybe best used as reserves or counter-charge troops, rather than front line objective takers?

 Flinty wrote:
It sounds like Banshees are in a similar place to Guard Rough Riders. Very fragile, but highly mobile troops. Maybe best used as reserves or counter-charge troops, rather than front line objective takers?

Problem is that unlike Rough Riders, the Banshees aren't as mobile. They also have the problem of not being as good counter-charge units as other choices such as Harlequins, Scorpions or 'blades. Scorpions and 'blades are significantly more powerful and have sufficient AP2 to get the job done while Harlequins have massive amounts of rending and ignore cover. 'quins aren't superb and lost some of their shine, but I feel they are better at their job than 'shees. Sadly, 'shees really are a mechanized unit that are forced to run because the codex lacks melee-mechanization.

IcyFireKnight - thanks again!

Flinty - yes that seems to be the trend... I like to call the majority of the Eldar army glass cannons - very powerful weaponry to boot, but extremely vulnerable to return fire. I think Eldar need a little care to play with, or you will end up with plenty of dead bodies.

GA

How does the Banshee mask interact with an existing combat? That could be the unique selling point of the banshees as counter charge. I also think that 2+ armour saves aren't actually as prevalent as people seem to fear.You don;t need all of your units to be able to deal with all possible targets, so it would be easy to keep Banshees available to support other units and harrass anything with 3+ or worse, leaving the rest of the army to deal with the 2+ saves.

Do not circumvent the swearfilter. MT11

The swearyness is a bit unnecessary...

Small point on the Scorpion Exarch:
The Scorpion Claw differs from an Executioner in the following way; it's higher strength, has a ranged weapon and one-handed.
The Scorpion Claw differs from a Space Marine power fist in the following way; it's lower strength, has a ranged weapon and is not a unwieldy specialized weapon.

Important differences. Especially that bit about being lower than S8 when discussing it with your Space Marine friends. It won't instant death a Chaplain, Power Fists on Space Marines will.

 Mahtamori wrote:
Small point on the Scorpion Exarch:
The Scorpion Claw differs from an Executioner in the following way; it's higher strength, has a ranged weapon and one-handed.
The Scorpion Claw differs from a Space Marine power fist in the following way; it's lower strength, has a ranged weapon and is not a unwieldy specialized weapon.

Important differences. Especially that bit about being lower than S8 when discussing it with your Space Marine friends. It won't instant death a Chaplain, Power Fists on Space Marines will.

so which is better - Claw or executioner? is the executioner a power weapon?

GA

OK, so as others have said Scorpions > Banshees.

BUT I love Banshees too and stocked up on them and Wave Serpents before 6th, only to find the Banshees were terrible. BUT still usable. There are two ways to use them:

1: Don't. Put them in a Wave Serpent, which is now a powerful gunship, and fly them towards things making your enemy thing they're gonna get charged. This changes their focus, makes them redirect units, and can draw fire on a vehicle that is simply trying to take fire!

2: Wait. I love confusing opponents by pulling up a Wave Serpent turn 2 and... not dropping the Banshees out. We have a good bit of shooting and sometimes the opponent just needs that extra nudge to get off the objective. So I'll wait till turn 4 to drop off the Banshees so that turn 5 they can charge the objective once everything else has been weakened to the point that it isn't as big of a threat.

One other thing to remember in your decision about rangers; this edition seems to be adding more and more "ignores cover" weapons. One of my regular opponents is a Tau player. Once he learns his army I fear for mine. With the amount of S5 ignores cover weapons (he loves the SMS) rangers wouldn't stand a chance. Add in the fact that they only get one shot (if they don't move) and the reduction to their effectiveness and I don't think lots of rangers are the way to go either.

A squad or two? Maybe. A big part of your force? No. You are better off with a mobile shooting force like Dire Avengers or even guardians now, especially if you put them in the now excellent wave serpent.

If it's the models themselves you really want you can always proxy them as Harlequins. I am doing something similar with Warlocks, love the models hate the rules and price of them. So I am using them as a Harlequin troupe, with a Farseer wielding a staff as a Shadowseer and another one with 2 Witchblades as the Troupe Master.