Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I usually put Holo-fields on all my vehicles. It seems to make my Wave Serpents nearly invincible. But lately I've been feeling like they are unnecessary, with that serpent shield up they take so long to die, especially with three or so on the field and I would rather put those points into things like a Crystal Targeting Matrix. What do you guys think? Are Holo-fields maybe a a little more protection than you need or do you guys find you definitely want them on every vehicle

my opinion is open to change but making a 1/3 a 1/2 is worth 15pts.

also the serpent shield wont be up all the time.

Considering a good portion of the people taking Wave Serpents are going to want to be firing the shield as a weapon, yes, you are going to want Holo Fields.

Yeah my shields are only up long enough to take out things that hurt them. Then its on like donkey kong

I always use holo fields and they are always worth the points.

I don't think they are necessary, honestly I'm only seeing wave serpents die in close combat and the halo field doesn't work in CC.

Pony_law wrote:
I don't think they are necessary, honestly I'm only seeing wave serpents die in close combat and the halo field doesn't work in CC.

The reason you don't see them die outside of close combat is their saturation and survivability, heavily enhanced with the 15pt upgrade known as Holofields.

Remember, if you go flat out your getting a 3+ cover save. If your behind ruins your getting a 3+ cover save.

Yes, holo fields are totally worth it.

Pony_law wrote:
I don't think they are necessary, honestly I'm only seeing wave serpents die in close combat and the halo field doesn't work in CC.

The reason you don't see them die outside of close combat is their saturation and survivability, heavily enhanced with the 15pt upgrade known as Holofields.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pony_law wrote:
I don't think they are necessary, honestly I'm only seeing wave serpents die in close combat and the halo field doesn't work in CC.

The reason you don't see them die outside of close combat is their saturation and survivability, heavily enhanced with the 15pt upgrade known as Holofields.

Totally worth it. I take them with Ghostwalk matrix. as well. Being able to park the thing anywhere on the field with no worries and a 4+ save if you do it right....totally worth it.

I take them since the shield on mine is only ever up for the first turn. Every other turn my WS is firing its shield. Also, the holofield works against things that ignore jink if you moved, since the save it gives has an innate 6+. Also buildings and area terrain can use the holofields also, meaning that things that ignore jink saves are that much less effective vs WS.

Linkage wrote:
I usually put Holo-fields on all my vehicles. It seems to make my Wave Serpents nearly invincible. But lately I've been feeling like they are unnecessary....I would rather put those points into things like a Crystal Targeting Matrix

Wave serpents are not cheap, a base serpent with an upgraded gun runs a bill twenty NOT including the cost of the models inside. For 12.5% of the cost of the serpent, you increase its chance to pass any cover save by 16.6%. The serpent shield protects from a pinning hit, but losing hull points will still down the serpent. Serpents are expensive, but very powerful investments and you want to keep the alive at all costs.

The Crystal targeting matrix is expensive for a one time use. Decent on fire prisms or nightspinners, but again you are going to go flat out with these, and if you are bothering with that you want HOLO FIELDS to boost that save to protect your expensive gimmick.

Wanting a CTM over holo fields is like having a Ferrari, but instead of buying car insurance, you splurge for custom interior.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Wanting a CTM over holo fields is like having a Ferrari, but instead of buying car insurance, you splurge for custom interior.

Simile of the day.

 ductvader wrote:

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Wanting a CTM over holo fields is like having a Ferrari, but instead of buying car insurance, you splurge for custom interior.

Simile of the day.

Well if you are buying a Ferrari, you don't exactly want to buy the the cheapest of the cheap, you want to go all out on the car, so poor simile.

On topic, when I finally get to play a game with my club again, I will be taking holofields, as they seriously are worth the cheap points cost.

I recently had a battle vs IG mech, vs my Eldar serpent spam list. He asked f. Was taking holo files, and I said of course. He then shook his head and said, not worth it.

So throughout the battle we tested it.

They saved every wave serpent from st least one pen, most more. Yes they are worth it. My serpent jumped into the middle of a vindicator, plasma veterans n chimeras X2, that tank that shoots a melt blast, a krack missile into back armour, and a MM and MG rhino. (he was allying with SM) .

It survived.

Splashing a CTM on a Night Spinner is outrageous.

I suppose I'm part of the minority opinion here. I do not believe Holo Fields are worth it.

My current Eldar list has 5 Serpents. With Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannons, they already cost 130 points each. Adding Holo Fields would cost 75 points. I've seen lists with 8 Serpents, or 5-6 Serpents and another 3 vehicles at 1850. The cost of adding Holo Fields in those situations is even greater--basically, one would be sacrificing the points to include another Serpent.

In a vacuum, the tradeoff might be worthwhile. However, in a game in which Tau (lots of ways to ignore cover), Eldar (their Serpents don't care about your Holo Fields), and Daemons (no cover save when they rush to pop your Serpents in CC) are the most popular armies, it seems foolish to waste the points. Imperial armies often inherently lack the rate of fire necessary to deal with Serpents, especially with their shields up. This basically leaves Necrons. I don't believe the loss of 15 points per Serpent is worth it. To put it in perspective, I'd have to lose my 2 count Shadow Weaver unit and still drop a model or two to get the shields. Will they do more for me than two barrage blasts, which are amazing in 6th edition?

Obviously, YMMV here. However, it is worth considering the savings that going without the fields gives you.

JGrand, you are making a better argument for holofields, not against them.

75 points isnt much considering each serpent is actually closer to 200 due to the squad riding along. For that investment, a bit of better protection is pretty useful.

You listed only 3 armies, all of which only have a small portion of their armies who can ignore cover saves. Tau marker lights are force multipliers one way or another. If they dont remove your cover, they are boosting their BS. With 5 serpents, marker lights shouldnt last beyond turn 3 no matter the platform. Only an iridium CC with marker drones has a chance of surviving. Eldar only have shields and reapers that ignore cover.

Enemy eldar shields dont have enough shots to be much of a threat to your serpents unless he is also serpent spamming. They are effectively riflemen dreds that went out of fashion early 5th due to lack of firepower.

Demons are another problem. Serpent spam is bad vs flying circus and that is a reason not to run serpent spam not against holofields. 1/3 of a serpent cost is not going to give you much firepower increase. At the same time, demons arent exactly a popular army.

Now since you are running serpent spam, how are you dealing with guard? Especially Russ guard. You cant easily shoot down or ignore vendettas, you cant deal with AV14 unless maybe a prism or two, which are very unreliable and liable to be targeted, and you cant easily deal with barrage weapons easily unless you get within melta threat range. All of these holofields help.

Then you have the usual gunline SW, GKs, mech BA, and as you mentioned, the biggest tournament winner, crons. Not using holofields because small portions of some armies can ignore cover saves is not a good reason. Each of the armies you mention is going to have a large portion of their shots not ignoring cover saves.

JGrand, you are making a better argument for holofields, not against them.

75 points isnt much considering each serpent is actually closer to 200 due to the squad riding along. For that investment, a bit of better protection is pretty useful.

While the squad is required to purchase the Serpent, it is a bit misleading to add the cost of the squad into the total cost of the vehicle. At 1850, I would take 5-6 squads of troops regardless of my other purchases. Holo Fields don't really save the unit inside as much as the inherent toughness of AV12, along with the Serpent shield reducing penetrating hits to glances.

You listed only 3 armies, all of which only have a small portion of their armies who can ignore cover saves. Tau marker lights are force multipliers one way or another. If they dont remove your cover, they are boosting their BS. With 5 serpents, marker lights shouldnt last beyond turn 3 no matter the platform. Only an iridium CC with marker drones has a chance of surviving. Eldar only have shields and reapers that ignore cover.

While they are only three armies, they are the three most prominent armies. It isn't always super easy to remove Tau markerlights. Yes, killing Pathfinders is pretty easy. However, pure Serpent spam has issues with the AV 13 front armor of Skyrays (which are often undesirable to shoot once they pop their missiles). I have also seen lists that make use of marker drones spread throughout the list. Finally, the big bad Tau Commander has become a cover ignoring staple that is very hard to remove.

Enemy eldar shields dont have enough shots to be much of a threat to your serpents unless he is also serpent spamming. They are effectively riflemen dreds that went out of fashion early 5th due to lack of firepower.

I disagree. Serpent v. Serpent lists are going to be an issue for players. The player with Holo Fields will be paying an unnecessary tax.

Demons are another problem. Serpent spam is bad vs flying circus and that is a reason not to run serpent spam not against holofields. 1/3 of a serpent cost is not going to give you much firepower increase. At the same time, demons arent exactly a popular army.

Serpent spam isn't really bad versus the flying circus.I see tons of Daemons around, but I understand that may not be the case everywhere. They have been showing up in full force to tourneys.

Now since you are running serpent spam, how are you dealing with guard? Especially Russ guard. You cant easily shoot down or ignore vendettas, you cant deal with AV14 unless maybe a prism or two, which are very unreliable and liable to be targeted, and you cant easily deal with barrage weapons easily unless you get within melta threat range. All of these holofields help.

My list is:

Bikeseer
5x5 DA in Serpents with TL Scatter, Cannon
2 Wraithknights
2 Shadow Weavers
8 Spiders
4 Jetbikes

I can deal with AV 14 with the strength 10 I pack. Manticores are dealt with via Deep Striking Spiders or Shadow Weavers. I also don't HAVE to pop Serpent shields. It is often worth using them defensively. I also don't necessarily consider 5 Serpents to be a full on spam, but I don't think all that much of that list. I can twin-link both Wraithknights in order to have a decent shot at hitting Vendettas, or just wait to hit back armor with Spiders or Serpents.

Then you have the usual gunline SW, GKs, mech BA, and as you mentioned, the biggest tournament winner, crons. Not using holofields because small portions of some armies can ignore cover saves is not a good reason. Each of the armies you mention is going to have a large portion of their shots not ignoring cover saves.

I did leave off with YMMV. I understand that Warhammer is going to be different in various areas. However, I plan for the tourney/GT scene, which has been flooded with Tau, Eldar, and Daemons lately. Marines are primarily used to augment Guard. It isn't worth stressing over them alone. Crons are worth considering, but IMHO, I'm not about to spend 75 points worrying about one army in particular, especially when points are tight. I should also mention that I often play the NOVA format, which places a ruin midboard, and in both d-zones. 4+ saves aren't exactly hard to come by.

I respect the decision to take Holo Fields, I just tend to think that it is worth considering what one can get for the savings.

 zephoid wrote:
At the same time, demons arent exactly a popular army.

Where are you playing? I'm seeing daemons all the time in RTTs. I expect there to be quite a few at NOVA.

 zephoid wrote:
Now since you are running serpent spam, how are you dealing with guard?

You know chimeras have AV10 sides right? Its pretty easy to crack them open and kill all the mech guard inside. Winning objective missions is hard when all your troops are dead.

 zephoid wrote:
Then you have the usual gunline SW, GKs, mech BA

Wow....again where are you playing? The only SW I see are drop wolves, or as ally for guard. The only GK I see are draigowing leftovers. Mech BA? I've not seen one of those in over a year now. I don't doubt that your seeing all those armies and few daemons. I'm just wondering what area of the country your in. What major events are around you?

 JGrand wrote:
However, pure Serpent spam has issues with the AV 13 front armor of Skyrays (which are often undesirable to shoot once they pop their missiles). I have also seen lists that make use of marker drones spread throughout the list. Finally, the big bad Tau Commander has become a cover ignoring staple that is very hard to remove.

I think that the 6-8 serpents have to many weaknesses into the list. While it has a LOT of firepower, it can be wiped by the wrong matchup.

I plan to bring ~5 serpents and supporting elements to help. I may be very wrong with this approach. I've been wrong many times before

I think that the 6-8 serpents have to many weaknesses into the list. While it has a LOT of firepower, it can be wiped by the wrong matchup.

I plan to bring ~5 serpents and supporting elements to help. I may be very wrong with this approach. I've been wrong many times before

I'd agree. I've posted my army above, which has 5 Serpents and a bunch of non-vehicle supporting elements. 8 Serpents, or 6 Serpents+3 more vehicles (Spinners/Prisms) seems a bit too unbalanced to me as well. Sure, those lists put out insane firepower and are very durable. However, I've found the Prism to be underwhelming. Against things like Land Raider spam and AV 13 walls, Serpent lists are going to struggle. While a bit rarer, I have seen both of those lists at events. It isn't worth having such a hard counter.

In relation to the topic at hand, I still don't think Holo Fields are worthwhile. That 8 Serpent list becomes a 7 Serpent list with Holo Fields. The 6 Serpents and 3 Prism/Spinner list loses a Serpent/Prism/Spinner as well. Even my own posted list would have to cut two Shadow Weavers and 15 more points in order to gain Holo Fields. On paper, the tradeoff may be worth it. In the context of what I see frequently at events, I don't believe it is. The popular armies simply don't care (or at the very least, don't care as much) about +1 cover save.

This my current list. I've tried it and its working out really well. I might tweak it a bit more, but right now I'm probably going to take it to NOVA.

You really like your green don't you?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You really like your green don't you?

And purple.

Back on topic, Holo-Fields are definitely worth it. They just are. 15 points is a steal for being on a 4+ cover or better almost all of the time.

Back on topic, Holo-Fields are definitely worth it. They just are. 15 points is a steal for being on a 4+ cover or better almost all of the time.

Holo Fields are like an insurance policy. There are plenty of times when a policy is worthwhile and can bail you out of a jam. However, insurance isn't free. There is an opportunity cost to the money you spend. In addition, there situations that insurance doesn't cover. It is up to an individual to decide if it is worth paying the cost of insurance, or to save that money to use on other areas. To extend this analogy, it would make no sense to pay for flood insurance if you live in an area in which floods are rare.

My point is, it makes little sense to pay for Holo Fields in the current tourney meta. Far too many Tau/Eldar/Daemons to make it count.

I'm on board with JGrand here. The armies that generally are going to be tough for Mechdar to deal with will not care too much about +1 to your cover save, especially because that +1 comes at a fairly steep price. 15 points isn't much on its own, but once you are adding Holos to multiple Serpents you'll take notice. I'd rather have increased target saturation than tougher targets, this is especially true for Serpents because they are so inherently durable that most armies cannot deal with them efficiently.

Mind you my tactical opinions are limited by what I own;

I use 1 Serpent with a full squad of Avengers with the Shimmershield Exarch. IF it gets broke, or if I need volume of fire, I have a full squad to do it. I have HoloFields so I have the option of taking forward objectives, or 1/6 missions denying the Heck out of those 2 kill points. I usually run TL BLs since I don't have War Walkers to break vehicles reliably from range.

Then I have a Fire Prism. Reach out and touch them before they can even get close and 3 strong modes of fire. Holofield is mandatory for me but, also my only upgrade. In 1/6 missions it vigorously denies a kill point and. In another 1/6 missions this machine is scoring.

Then my 3rd heavy is DCannon Artillery. It creates a 24in bubble of F-You. It's also awesome for attaching a Warlock and Farseer to. Oh would you look at that T7 psykers (I am mindful that this unit crumples to assaults).

I leave my Warithlords and Falcon home unless over 2000. The Falcon's ideal setup for me since you're stuck with the Pulse Laser? ScatLaser, might as well make it twin linked. I put Holofields on this too, since the passengers are always Fire Dragons who need to get close.

I think I could strengthen my TAC list with either an extra Fire Prism or Serpent. In all cases HoloFields are mandatory for me.

Holofields are going to be better buys the fewer skimmers you have. Like all defensive upgrades, they become significantly less useful when you're not using them to increase the durability of exceptionally fragile (for your army) units. When your entire list is made up of AV12 skimmers, Holofields are to some extent only trading defense for firepower list-wide. If you only have a few skimmers, and they're good early targets for an opponent, you're getting just as much extra durability in the first few turns (Holofields don't do anything unless the skimmer they're on gets shot at) while giving up much less firepower.

In other words, if you only have one valuable skimmer Holofields are pretty much mandatory. If you have a handful of them they're less valuable, but IMO probably still a good idea. If you have a whole bunch of skimmers they're hard to justify. This is entirely aside from concerns about which armies will actually be a hard matchup for your list, and if you're in JGrand's situation where your hardest opponents tend to ignore cover saves anyway, then obviously Holofields are significantly less valuable.

I'm probably wrong, but all I'm seeing is that paying 75 points for a 5+ save to turn into a 4+ save for all my vehicles is worth it seeing that all you can get instead is like a War Walker or 6 Avengers. The price really is negligible seeing as how much Eldar rely on anything other than raw armour to save them.

IcyFireKnight wrote:
I'm probably wrong, but all I'm seeing is that paying 75 points for a 5+ save to turn into a 4+ save for all my vehicles is worth it seeing that all you can get instead is like a War Walker or 6 Avengers. The price really is negligible seeing as how much Eldar rely on anything other than raw armour to save them.

Or 3+ cover behind ruins, or 2+ cover obscured by a bastion.

Personally I'm against spamming but I think having holofields on a couple skimmers is a great idea to help influence your opponent to target the wrong skimmers. I use 2 serpents and won't leave home without holofields.