Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had this happen in a game earlier:

I had mantle of the laughing god autarch who rolled a 4 on the warlord traits, which allows reroll of saves of 1.
My enemy was guard and used fire on my target.

Now what happens:
According to the old ruling (i could not find this ruling in any FAQ or BRB anymore), forcing a reroll and granting a reroll negate. However, i have two instances of allowing me to reroll, one from a mantle and one from the warlord. So would one negate with the FOMT and i still reroll, or would both be negated?

You can only ever re-roll a dice once. When rules conflict, it gets muddy.

As it stands, if you fail your save, you can re-roll it, and if you get FOMT -ed then you re-roll saves that worked the first time.

Indeed, you have a rule stating you can only reroll once, but you now have 3 things saying reroll. What takes preference is the question. 5th BRB FAQ had a ruling that said that forcing a reroll and granting a reroll on the same dice canceled, but i cant find that ruling anywhere anymore.

You have 2 choices.

You can either
a) Roll all your saves, ignore all the numbers, pick them up and re-roll them all
or
b) Roll once and re-roll nothing.

No matter how many sources of re-rolling you have this is what it boils down to. I've found most players choose b.

rigeld2 wrote:
You have 2 choices.

You can either
a) Roll all your saves, ignore all the numbers, pick them up and re-roll them all
or
b) Roll once and re-roll nothing.

No matter how many sources of re-rolling you have this is what it boils down to. I've found most players choose b.

But in the case above he can reroll 1's specifically, so actually he could just pick up and re-roll any 1's, leaving the rest as they are.

You only ever get to re-roll once basically, so just be clear during the game as to which you are using when you choose to re-roll any dice during a phase. For example, if you've got a reroll on all all armour saves of 1, but also another piece of equipment/special rule that allows you another form of armour save re-roll, just state to your opponent which you will be using.

In the interests of fair play I think it's best to do this before any dice have been rolled during a phase?

 Tehjonny wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have 2 choices.

You can either
a) Roll all your saves, ignore all the numbers, pick them up and re-roll them all
or
b) Roll once and re-roll nothing.

No matter how many sources of re-rolling you have this is what it boils down to. I've found most players choose b.

But in the case above he can reroll 1's specifically, so actually he could just pick up and re-roll any 1's, leaving the rest as they are.

In which scenario - A or B?
In A - sure, which means other failures stay.
In B - No, he can't because what you're doing is skipping the useless first step of rolling dice and then picking them up. It's not that anything cancels out, it's that you're not doing a step that is literally a waste of time.

In the case i am rolling on his cover save (2+) the reroll 1s trait is the same thing as rerolling failed cover saves.

I guess it does simply come down to the negation of the first roll. Without the old rule that explicitly says they negate, the rolls will effectively negate without it due to the first roll being ignored. The fact that i have 2 or more instances telling me that i get positive rerolls is irrelevant since you cant reroll after that.

You're also misrepresenting the "old rule". It was an FAQ that said essentially exactly what I have - technically you are supposed to go through the motions and roll once, scoop, roll again but that's silly so just consider them negated.

"Re-rolling 1's" is different than "re-rolling failed/successful saves."
"Re-roll successes" and "re-roll failures" cancel out in effect.
But if the unit must re-roll failures of 1, and also re-roll all successes, then it does depend on what the save is in the first place.

For example, a 5++ save that re-rolls 1's (Daemons of Tzeentch) who are Misfortuned (re-roll successful saves) would not re-roll any results of 2-4. They would re-roll successful 5-6, and failed 1, but it wouldn't work to either
1) roll dice, ignore results, roll dice again
or
2) roll dice once and stick with results.

That's a fair statement, but not what was implied above (or I missed it if it was).

I don't find in the new FAQs where it says 'Rerolling successful saves and rerolling failed saves cancels each other out', but if there is a rule in the BRB or FAQ that states as such, then it cancels.

But they are certainly not necessarily equal all the time, so barring a rule that says they cancel, if (for example) the old Fateweaver was in the Null Zone, all his saves would end up being re-rolled, which may not have the same overall outcome as just saying they cancel each other.

If Fire on My Target makes you reroll successful saves, and the Eldar have a rule that says they can reroll saves of 1 (like Tzeentch Daemons), 1 is not a successful save, and thus the 1s are rerolled, whilst all the successful (2+ cover was it?, nice) saves get rerolled too.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I don't find in the new FAQs where it says 'Rerolling successful saves and rerolling failed saves cancels each other out', but if there is a rule in the BRB or FAQ that states as such, then it cancels.

No one is saying they cancel out.

But they are certainly not necessarily equal all the time, so barring a rule that says they cancel, if (for example) the old Fateweaver was in the Null Zone, all his saves would end up being re-rolled, which may not have the same overall outcome as just saying they cancel each other.

No, really - it's the same effect.

If Fire on My Target makes you reroll successful saves, and the Eldar have a rule that says they can reroll saves of 1 (like Tzeentch Daemons), 1 is not a successful save, and thus the 1s are rerolled, whilst all the successful (2+ cover was it?, nice) saves get rerolled too.

Which means you're re-rolling every die. Which is a waste of time. Which means don't do it - just take the results of the first roll because, statistically, it's exactly the same.

There was a 5th FAQ about Swarmlord and I think Eldrad fighting each other and how their reroll failed and successful saves interacted. The answer was stick with first roll. However that FAQ is now gone.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's a fair statement, but not what was implied above (or I missed it if it was).

The OP's question was about his Autarch who could re-roll saves of 1.
So while your observations were correct in a general sense, I thought a more specific assessment was needed.

Additionally, I wasn't responding particularly to your comment, Rigeld2; I didn't mean any offense. I was trying to address the concern of the OP, which I felt had not been adequately covered.

They technically don't cancel each other, you have to roll, ignore it and roll again.
But you will usually skip the first step to save time.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's a fair statement, but not what was implied above (or I missed it if it was).

The OP's question was about his Autarch who could re-roll saves of 1.
So while your observations were correct in a general sense, I thought a more specific assessment was needed.

Additionally, I wasn't responding particularly to your comment, Rigeld2; I didn't mean any offense. I was trying to address the concern of the OP, which I felt had not been adequately covered.

Eliric just saying there are different kind of re-roll. Since not all re-roll are equal, so do we re-roll the re-roll or we cancel re-roll even tho they are not equal? The new rules just create a gap in logic where someone forgot to fill in the gap.

Didn't a similar thread crop up recently regarding what happens if a unit has Fortune and Misfortune on it simultaneously? I believe mathhammer was done as well, to prove that if 'reroll successful' and 'reroll failed' amounted to rerolling everything then you may as well skip the reroll...

People have lost a particular point to his conundrum--though the result is the same. The Mantle of the Laughing God allows you to re-roll failed cover saves by itself. On top of that he had the "re-roll" 1's, which I'm assuming in this case we are talking about a 2+ cover save, so re-rolls of a 1 is effectively the same.

But those are moot points. rigeld2 nailed it. you can re-roll all the dice in this particular case or none of the dice. You and your opponent should be able to agree on the procedure.

Yes, in the cosmic sense, rolling all the dice and just picking them up and rolling again is not the same thing as just rolling them once, but considering you're still relying on the outcome of a single roll, they are functionally equal courses of action.

There is nowhere in the RAW that I am aware of that lets you stack up your positive and negative re-roll effects and start canceling them out.

tyllon wrote:
Eliric just saying there are different kind of re-roll. Since not all re-roll are equal, so do we re-roll the re-roll or we cancel re-roll even tho they are not equal?

You are never (unless explicitly stated otherwise) allowed to re-roll a die that has been re-rolled. So in the case of the OP you re-roll all dice with a 2+ because of FOMT and all dice with a 1 because of the Mantle. IOW, you roll the dice and then immediately re-roll all of them no matter what results you get, keeping whatever you get on the re-roll. Since this is exactly equivalent to just rolling the dice once you can simplify things and do that instead.

BunnyCommando wrote:
I believe mathhammer was done as well, to prove that if 'reroll successful' and 'reroll failed' amounted to rerolling everything then you may as well skip the reroll...

It's not even mathhammer, it's just basic probability. Assuming "fair" dice rolling a die once and rolling it then re-rolling it no matter what the outcome is are exactly the same. If someone insists otherwise they either don't understand math or (more likely) are cheating and insisting on doing the re-roll because the original outcome is worse than average for them and they're hoping the re-roll will be better.

Honestly, I thought it was really funny that somebody had to do a complete mathematical breakdown of "roll the dice, pick them ALL up, and roll them again". It should be patently obvious that if you're re-rolling every single die no matter what it originally rolled, then the original roll is irrelevant.

Pyrian wrote:
Honestly, I thought it was really funny that somebody had to do a complete mathematical breakdown of "roll the dice, pick them ALL up, and roll them again". It should be patently obvious that if you're re-rolling every single die no matter what it originally rolled, then the original roll is irrelevant.

It's not totally irrelevant. You can taunt you're opponent with results he's not going to get. Nothing changes in the odds... just the taunting.