Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

'lo to all
I was just wondering about alpharius and whatizface, and y'know, how they turned to chaos basically 'cause the cabal told him to and whatnot, if he had of stayed loyal would the imperium have not suffered as much and maybe the emperor would have lived?

'Cause it would be 10 on 8 then and maybe (just MAYBE) the emperor could have tried to reel in some other legions that didn't carry such vendetta (I don't think that all the traitor primarchs were in it because they wanted mankind to be totally destroyed, were they? (mortarion?)) to at least be neutral.

Anyways, I haven't read more than two HH books properly, skimming through some others and was just wondering whether the cabal royally fuckedd the imperium or they were fuckedd no matter what.

Well the wolves and the alphas may well have been at the siege for one thing, seeing as it was the alpha legion that delayed them with a space battle. This would have brought the loyalist legions up to 5 at the siege, not sure if this would have made too much difference in the long run as wolves and alphas are not among the largest of legions.

Also it was the imminent arrival of the wolves and the dark angels that is believed to have forced Horus into lowering his shields in challenge to the emperor.

So does that mean that the emperor would still be alive? because not only would there be much needed reinforcements at the siege but they wouldn't have had to battle horus head on. In fact, sanguinius and a few others would still be alive, because horus wouldn't have killed sanguinius and the casualties at the drop sire massacre wouldn't have been as horrendous. Sure, they still would have been pretty crippling but that's one less legion they have to deal with and maybe it would have meant that they would have one more on the loyalist side. However, this would mean that Alpharius' legion would be pretty decimated as well, so swings and roundabouts

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
So does that mean that the emperor would still be alive? because not only would there be much needed reinforcements at the siege but they wouldn't have had to battle horus head on. In fact, sanguinius and a few others would still be alive, because horus wouldn't have killed sanguinius and the casualties at the drop sire massacre wouldn't have been as horrendous. Sure, they still would have been pretty crippling but that's one less legion they have to deal with and maybe it would have meant that they would have one more on the loyalist side. However, this would mean that Alpharius' legion would be pretty decimated as well, so swings and roundabouts

Probably not, because they didn't need to face Horus head on either way. Horus knew the oncoming Imperial reinforcements would overwhelm him so he lured the Emperor in, adding more Imperial reinforcements would not have changed that situation. The Emperor took the bait because he saw it as his chance to finish it and not let Horus escape.

If the Alpha's stayed loyal Isstvan V would not of happened. That's a big win.

Who's to say Alpha Legion did not stay loyal? Not to the Emperor of course, but definitely towards mankind.

There is not much known about Alpha Legion, but Alpharius was the only Primarch who knew that in order for Chaos to lose, the Horus had to win.

Killing mankind so that chaos might die isn't really loyal to mankind either, IMHO. Anyone truly loyal to mankind would try to figure out a way for Mankind to like, win. Not suffer what could at best be seen as a pyrhic victory or a tie, and at worse basically be a game-over with only one enemy out of many dying.

 Happyjew wrote:
Who's to say Alpha Legion did not stay loyal? Not to the Emperor of course, but definitely towards mankind.

There is not much known about Alpha Legion, but Alpharius was the only Primarch who knew that in order for Chaos to lose, the Horus had to win.

Whatever their original intentions may have been, they have since fallen to chaos. Every 40k depiction of the Alpha Legion that I have seen shows possessed marines and daemons among their ranks.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Who's to say Alpha Legion did not stay loyal? Not to the Emperor of course, but definitely towards mankind.

There is not much known about Alpha Legion, but Alpharius was the only Primarch who knew that in order for Chaos to lose, the Horus had to win.

Whatever their original intentions may have been, they have since fallen to chaos. Every 40k depiction of the Alpha Legion that I have seen shows possessed marines and daemons among their ranks.

No, you see, they want you to think that. it's all mind games, man.

Had the Alpha Legion gotten word out to the loyalists of what was about to happen, Istvaan V probably never happens and Horus never makes it to Terra. The Emperor and Sanguinius are both alive and this is a very different 40K universe.

 Traejun wrote:
Had the Alpha Legion gotten word out to the loyalists of what was about to happen, Istvaan V probably never happens and Horus never makes it to Terra. The Emperor and Sanguinius are both alive and this is a very different 40K universe.

While I think it wouldn't be quite this clear cut I do agree that the 40k universe would be a very different place. It would be very difficult for alpharius, the newest and least known primarch, to sway and warn some of his brothers. He could however have started warning certain individuals and making preparations to limit the damage of Istvaan V or Calth. As an infiltration and insurgency specialist he could have worked on a covert network in place ready to react instantly to the start of the Heresy.

Let's say the Heresy ended at Istvaan V, Horus, Angron, Morty and Fulgrim plus legions were captured/destroyed...

Out of the remaining loyal legions, who do you think would have fell between 30k & 40k? One surely would have had a tint of chaos and enjoyed it between those times, or so I would have thought, maybe not even in the name of chaos but rebelled against the Emp...

 Happyjew wrote:


No, you see, they want you to think that. it's all mind games, man.

You gullible fool, them wanting you to think they are actually undercover loyalists is what they really want you to think!

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Let's say the Heresy ended at Istvaan V, Horus, Angron, Morty and Fulgrim plus legions were captured/destroyed...

Out of the remaining loyal legions, who do you think would have fell between 30k & 40k? One surely would have had a tint of chaos and enjoyed it between those times, or so I would have thought, maybe not even in the name of chaos but rebelled against the Emp...

It's entirely possible that surviving traitor primarchs not captured on Istvaan V end up killing a loyalist or two. Maybe Ferrus Mannus dies anyway.

I didn't see this point brought up: If the Alphas stayed loyal, they wouldn't have sabotaged Corax's efforts to speed up the marine maturation process.

Corax was able to refine the marine geneseed/maturation process so that it could be done in a few months with a very high success rate.

By staying loyal, the Alphas would put at least 1 legion back in the game (Raven Guard) on top of their own legion.

I'm not sure if there are any other examples of a potential swing that large.

This process could have also sped up the reinforcements for other loyalist chapters too. I don't think it would have ended the heresy at Istvaan V, It depends on whether or not the Alphas were able to ascertain the loyalties of the other traitor legions. It all depends on the steps Alpharius decides to take with the knowledge of the heresy.

Who said we didnt stay loyal to the Emperor and arent trying to bring him back? Out of all the Legions the Alpha Legion has the fewest number of mutations and I cant find anything on whether Alpharius's twin brother Alpharius is a Daemon prince or not. I think rather than concentrate on the short game and the Heresy, we should ponder more the long game and what might happen according to the Cabal's vision.
Note I dont think every Alpha Legion cell has remained loyalist, there are undoubtedly some who have turned to chaos which are the ones we hear about in the fluff. Bad news is what makes the news after all.

If the Alpha Legion stays loyal, the Emperor's chances of survival go up. Now, he still may have the cataclysmic battle with Horus and wind up in the Golden Throne, but there's less chance of it. So let's say the Emperor lives without a scratch and Horus dies miserably. He now has to start removing the other remaining primarchs who don't live up to his standard. If Sanguinus lives, there may be no Black Rage among the Blood Angels, but the Red Thirst may give Empy pause to remove that Legion. The Dark Angels will also come under scrutiny as Lion El'Johnson deals with Luther's treachery. The Emperor may wind up eliminating the Dark Angels because if half the legion can go bad, maybe the rest will go bad as well. So we're already down two Loyalist legions. One is gone because of a defect in the gene-seed, the other because half the Legion turned traitor. The Space Wolves may also get eliminated because of their gene-seed muckery using the Canis gene (or whatever it's called).

So the Emperor will gain one loyal legion but three loyal legions may end up reduced or destroyed. After all, the Emperor doesn't like people messing with his overarching Plan to Save Humanity.

People seem to forget that the white scars were also on terra at the time though. Although they may not have been in the spotlight they definitely but some more oomph into the defence of the palace

 PaperworkNinja wrote:
If the Alpha Legion stays loyal, the Emperor's chances of survival go up. Now, he still may have the cataclysmic battle with Horus and wind up in the Golden Throne, but there's less chance of it. So let's say the Emperor lives without a scratch and Horus dies miserably. He now has to start removing the other remaining primarchs who don't live up to his standard. If Sanguinus lives, there may be no Black Rage among the Blood Angels, but the Red Thirst may give Empy pause to remove that Legion. The Dark Angels will also come under scrutiny as Lion El'Johnson deals with Luther's treachery. The Emperor may wind up eliminating the Dark Angels because if half the legion can go bad, maybe the rest will go bad as well. So we're already down two Loyalist legions. One is gone because of a defect in the gene-seed, the other because half the Legion turned traitor. The Space Wolves may also get eliminated because of their gene-seed muckery using the Canis gene (or whatever it's called).

So the Emperor will gain one loyal legion but three loyal legions may end up reduced or destroyed. After all, the Emperor doesn't like people messing with his overarching Plan to Save Humanity.

With the Emperor up and about, the number of legions becomes less important. He could simply erase questionable legion (i.e. Dark Angels, though the Blood Angels is less likely as Sanguinius is among his favorites), and it would have little effect. He just increases the recruiting/expands the size of unquestioned legions like the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and White Scars to make up the difference.

Let those Legion hunt down their remaining, traitor brethren while the Emperor restarts the webway program and pushes onward under the Imperial Truth.

Parts of the Alpha Legion are loyal, some have broken off but Alpahrius stays loyal to mankind.

Long ago when Horus started his treachery Alpahrius and his twin visited a witch who looked into the future and told them that if the Emperor wins mankind will lose. This is why they supported Horus, because the witch said that if Horus succeed and defeated the Emperor then he would feel such shame and regret that he would smite the forces of chaos on his own. That is why the Alpha Legion supported Horus, they like the Iron Warriors and Night Lords are renegade but not chaos affiliated.

I would not really say that Alpha Legion is loyal to mankind, much less to the Imperium. I'd believe it's to a Greater Purpose they've been convinced to possibly follow.

 Happyjew wrote:
Who's to say Alpha Legion did not stay loyal? Not to the Emperor of course, but definitely towards mankind.

There is not much known about Alpha Legion, but Alpharius was the only Primarch who knew that in order for Chaos to lose, the Horus had to win.

Turning against the Emperor is turning against mankind.

The Cabal's prediction was that the Chaos gods feed off of Humanity, therefore humanity must be destroyed in order to destroy Chaos. So the plan was for Horus to win, and for humanity to die. By doing that, the Chaos gods would eventually be destroyed. The alternative was for the Emperor to win, and for humanity to suffer a slow death while Chaos kills the whole universe.

So basically the Alpha Legion's plan is to sacrifice humanity to kill Chaos.

Legion is a terrible book.

 Traejun wrote:
Had the Alpha Legion gotten word out to the loyalists of what was about to happen, Istvaan V probably never happens and Horus never makes it to Terra. The Emperor and Sanguinius are both alive and this is a very different 40K universe.

Istvaan V might have happened in a different way. Horus might have planned his trap in some other way and it might have gone better or worse.

The result would not be changed, as the Cabal foresaw only 2 outcomes, Horus winning or losing, the Emperor dead or 95% dead. Horus lost even with the Alpha Legion on his side, so I'd say that at the end Horus will still have lost, Empy would still be on his gold toilet, and they'd just have a bit less confusion throughout the galaxy as the Alpha Legion would have sent their operatives to sow unity rather than chaos.

I think another Legion would have fallen and while the heresy might have played out a bit different, but the result would have been the same.

All Primarch where at least slightly corrupted, all Legions where possible traitors. It's wh40k. You can't fight fate. You can't deny the Chaos gods their toys. No matter what you do, things get worse.

 Happyjew wrote:
Who's to say Alpha Legion did not stay loyal? Not to the Emperor of course, but definitely towards mankind.

There is not much known about Alpha Legion, but Alpharius was the only Primarch who knew that in order for Chaos to lose, the Horus had to win.

Haha. Which Black Library novel invented that ridiculous story?

I swear, the Alpha Legion went from being the coolest of the Traitor Legions in 2nd Edition to the one with the most ridiculously awful fluff in the current iteration of the game.

Dan Abnett's Legion

If Alpharius had stayed loyal but otherwise gone along with Horus then there would have been massive differeneces.
Istvaan V would go ahead as it did. The Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders arrive and engage the traitors. They push the traitors back as that is Horus' plan to stretch out the loyalist legions for the traitors coming in later to finish off.

But they know what is coming, they pull back to their landing sites after the traitors fall back instead of pursuing them and get back to their ships in orbit just in time for the four "reinforcement" legions to arrive. The first to appear are the Alpha Legion who have made sure to get ahead of the other three. The combined fleets of four legions then spring their trap on the traitor fleets in orbit severely mauling them.
With the traitor fleets in disarray the loyalists have a small window of opportunity to turn their big guns on the traitors on the surface, furthering bloodying them. They then leave before the remaining traitors show up.

It may be that Calth is still attacked, but if even one of the rescued legions was able to get there to help then it could save a sizeable part of the Ultramarines legion which would then have a flow on effect of preventing Ultramar from being cut off.

Meanwhile the remaining loyalist legions would be free to ensure that Imperial planets stayed loyal.

Horus would be forced to make for Terra much earlier than he wanted leaving a much stronger Imperium at his back as the traitors would not have destroyed so many of them.
This means that when Horus is defeated a much more intact Imperium could prevent the xenos invasions that happened at the end of the original heresy.

The result would not be changed, as the Cabal foresaw only 2 outcomes, Horus winning or losing, the Emperor dead or 95% dead. Horus lost even with the Alpha Legion on his side, so I'd say that at the end Horus will still have lost, Empy would still be on his gold toilet, and they'd just have a bit less confusion throughout the galaxy as the Alpha Legion would have sent their operatives to sow unity rather than chaos.

Yeah, but the cabal already were wrong. They claimed that if the alpha legion switched sides Horus would win. I think that helps validate my opinion that either they were talking out of their arses or they were actually chaos supporters. I don't think that they can really be relied upon as a trustworthy.