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First off I'm going to say that I know Ogryns are useless...

BUT
I'm looking for your ideas of ways to make them ok (points no object, but less points is better).

Here's mine:
Allied DA
Azrael + 10 Ogryns + priest + primaris psyker
= lots of 4++ T5 wounds, possibly with FNP, which pack a punch in CC.

Ideas anyone else?

when the rule change for furious charge happened in 6th, it hurt alot. being able to swing at I4 with S6 was great. Yarrick is the best answer to run with in the IG codex. Now, initiative 3 just makes them huge meat shields.

Pack them in a chimera,

Use an allied librarian to make them invisible

assault something you can win against. (necrons maybe?)

Ogryn, in my opinion and experience, are not entirely useless, and can actually be a very useful addition to a guard army. For one thing, they provide an effective distraction for enemy anti-infantry firepower, something tanks cannot do, and concentrate the resilliance and damage output of roughly equal points of guardsmen in a lot smaller area, allowing them to apply pressure to the enemy more effectively and reduce the need for horde-guard to cluster up. I also listed some more specific points on how ogryn can be effective in this thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/545044.page

The idea you suggest certainly looks workable (although I beleive the preist's ability to re-roll does not affect ogryn), and the Primaris rolling on biomancy can help their survivability with Endurance, their damage output with Enfeeble, or add more high-strength attacks with a force staff and Iron Arm, and with 2 rolls you have a good chance to get something useful. I would also find Azreal more useful for shielding an Infantry blob, but he could work to add some punch to the unit as well.

The key with ogryn is to pick targets carefully. Pick on the things they can easily kill, like PIS, Fire Warriors, guardians and such, and try to avoid dedicated CC units. They can also work as a tarpit, counter-charge unit, spearhead or fire magnet, making them incredibly versatile. They may not be the best the guard cna bring, but they are certainly workable and useful.

Using full 2" coherency, I've seen them used effectively as a line barrier to stop Guardsmen being charged. Granted it will only work for a turn against dedicated assault units, but an extra turn of 50 lasguns makes a hell of a lot of difference.
For the most part, the cover save their targets get from firing through the Ogryns really doesn't make a difference anyway, since lasguns are AP-...!

Unfortunately, Priests cannot grant the re-roll of attacks to Ogryns.

 Super Ready wrote:
Using full 2" coherency, I've seen them used effectively as a line barrier to stop Guardsmen being charged. Granted it will only work for a turn against dedicated assault units, but an extra turn of 50 lasguns makes a hell of a lot of difference.
For the most part, the cover save their targets get from firing through the Ogryns really doesn't make a difference anyway, since lasguns are AP-...!

What is stopping you from using an infantry squad to do the same thing?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Using full 2" coherency, I've seen them used effectively as a line barrier to stop Guardsmen being charged. Granted it will only work for a turn against dedicated assault units, but an extra turn of 50 lasguns makes a hell of a lot of difference.
For the most part, the cover save their targets get from firing through the Ogryns really doesn't make a difference anyway, since lasguns are AP-...!

What is stopping you from using an infantry squad to do the same thing?

Infantry dies more easily.

And yeah I forgot that the priest's thingy doesn't work.

DA chaplain?

Librarian for prescience?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Using full 2" coherency, I've seen them used effectively as a line barrier to stop Guardsmen being charged. Granted it will only work for a turn against dedicated assault units, but an extra turn of 50 lasguns makes a hell of a lot of difference.
For the most part, the cover save their targets get from firing through the Ogryns really doesn't make a difference anyway, since lasguns are AP-...!

What is stopping you from using an infantry squad to do the same thing?

Infantry dies more easily.

And yeah I forgot that the priest's thingy doesn't work.

DA chaplain?

Librarian for prescience?

A DA prescience libby will work, but not the chaplain.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
What is stopping you from using an infantry squad to do the same thing?

As Tactical_Genius said, they're tougher to kill. Their increased size also means that one squad will take up more space than one squad of Guardsmen (although admittedly, for their cost you could just bring two or three squads...)

 Paradigm wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Using full 2" coherency, I've seen them used effectively as a line barrier to stop Guardsmen being charged. Granted it will only work for a turn against dedicated assault units, but an extra turn of 50 lasguns makes a hell of a lot of difference.
For the most part, the cover save their targets get from firing through the Ogryns really doesn't make a difference anyway, since lasguns are AP-...!

What is stopping you from using an infantry squad to do the same thing?

Infantry dies more easily.

And yeah I forgot that the priest's thingy doesn't work.

DA chaplain?

Librarian for prescience?

A DA prescience libby will work, but not the chaplain.

Why won't the chaplain work? I thought it just had zealot?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Using full 2" coherency, I've seen them used effectively as a line barrier to stop Guardsmen being charged. Granted it will only work for a turn against dedicated assault units, but an extra turn of 50 lasguns makes a hell of a lot of difference.
For the most part, the cover save their targets get from firing through the Ogryns really doesn't make a difference anyway, since lasguns are AP-...!

What is stopping you from using an infantry squad to do the same thing?

Infantry dies more easily.

And yeah I forgot that the priest's thingy doesn't work.

DA chaplain?

Librarian for prescience?

A DA prescience libby will work, but not the chaplain.

Why won't the chaplain work? I thought it just had zealot?

True, the DA one will, I was thinking of BA/SM chaplains. The prescience libby is cheaper, though, and will work for 2 rounds, rather than one.

Indeed it is, but the psychic tests are a risk, and zealot can't be stopped by things like shadow in the warp.
But yes I agree a Libby is better.
So can anyone top:
Azrael, 10 ogryns, primaris psyker, DA Libby ML2?

If you're going to throw in Azrael you may as well just use 10 deathwing terminators instead of trying to gimmick a pretty much pointless unit.

Loss of I4 + general assault nerfing = extremely poor choice. You can't give them a chimera because you can't assault, can't let creed make them outflank because you can't assault..

 Super Ready wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
What is stopping you from using an infantry squad to do the same thing?

As Tactical_Genius said, they're tougher to kill. Their increased size also means that one squad will take up more space than one squad of Guardsmen (although admittedly, for their cost you could just bring two or three squads...)

Well, after all, you can get 40 guardsmen for the price of 5 ogryns.

 Kirasu wrote:
If you're going to throw in Azrael you may as well just use 10 deathwing terminators instead of trying to gimmick a pretty much pointless unit.

Loss of I4 + general assault nerfing = extremely poor choice. You can't give them a chimera because you can't assault, can't let creed make them outflank because you can't assault..

Seeing as I'm taking part in a scenario where I have to take a ten man squad of ogryns, I was looking for ways to make them viable.

The other idea I had was Jacobus + Celestine tanking at the front.

If you have to use them as part of a scenario, do you know what you will be up against? How I use ogryn really depends on what I'm fighting.

As for Az, Libby, Primaris and ogryn, this will only work in games above 2k or with guard as the allied detachment, as DA need 2 HQ choices. Another idea might be to drop Azareal, as although he adds a lot to the unit, ATSKNF, stubborn and ld10 on the librarian reduces the need for fearless, and the 4++ alone is not really worth the points. I find one of the biggest advantages of ogryn is how easily they can be overlooked in favour of tanks and hordes of infantry, but sticking 300+ points of HQ in them is basically sticking a 'Shoot Me' sign on them, especially if one of the attached ICs is your warlord.

Jacobus and celestine in the unit would be fun. Makes them fearless, and can tank all types of wound on 2+ 4++ of celestine while having +1 attack, hatred and fnp from Jacobus. Its nice but it'll cost you T least 330 points to get that and you are lumbered with a basic sob squad. Although it does mean you could take some seraphim of retributors as well though.

I'm thinking g of running this in reverse with the ogryns as part of an allied force for my sob, mainly so I can use the ogryn models I've acquired over the years

If you want a tank for ovryns try Corbulo.

If you want a tank for ovryns try Corbulo.

Except he dies like a b**** to S8.

Jacobus and celestine in the unit would be fun. Makes them fearless, and can tank all types of wound on 2+ 4++ of celestine while having +1 attack, hatred and fnp from Jacobus. Its nice but it'll cost you T least 330 points to get that and you are lumbered with a basic sob squad. Although it does mean you could take some seraphim of retributors as well though.

The great thing is I love playing SoB, and Celestine is a great unit on her own, especially if I run SoB as my primary and have her as my warlord. I find BSS to be not too bad so I don't mind the tax either way.

If you have to use them as part of a scenario, do you know what you will be up against? How I use ogryn really depends on what I'm fighting.

As for Az, Libby, Primaris and ogryn, this will only work in games above 2k or with guard as the allied detachment, as DA need 2 HQ choices. Another idea might be to drop Azareal, as although he adds a lot to the unit, ATSKNF, stubborn and ld10 on the librarian reduces the need for fearless, and the 4++ alone is not really worth the points. I find one of the biggest advantages of ogryn is how easily they can be overlooked in favour of tanks and hordes of infantry, but sticking 300+ points of HQ in them is basically sticking a 'Shoot Me' sign on them, especially if one of the attached ICs is your warlord.

The scenario is basically a standard 2.5k game, except I've been given a handicap (410pts of ogryns), and I want them to actually do something so I haven't just got a boatload of uselessness. Plus it would be funny if my "handicap" actually worked.
I agree that perhaps Azrael isn't worth it, as the Libby already has fearless, and I can just give it a PFG to help with invuln's. That way I'll have 34 T5 4++ wounds, possibly with FnP and IWND, for only ~200pts more than I have to pay anyway...
Any other suggestions?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

If you have to use them as part of a scenario, do you know what you will be up against? How I use ogryn really depends on what I'm fighting.

As for Az, Libby, Primaris and ogryn, this will only work in games above 2k or with guard as the allied detachment, as DA need 2 HQ choices. Another idea might be to drop Azareal, as although he adds a lot to the unit, ATSKNF, stubborn and ld10 on the librarian reduces the need for fearless, and the 4++ alone is not really worth the points. I find one of the biggest advantages of ogryn is how easily they can be overlooked in favour of tanks and hordes of infantry, but sticking 300+ points of HQ in them is basically sticking a 'Shoot Me' sign on them, especially if one of the attached ICs is your warlord.

The scenario is basically a standard 2.5k game, except I've been given a handicap (410pts of ogryns), and I want them to actually do something so I haven't just got a boatload of uselessness. Plus it would be funny if my "handicap" actually worked.
I agree that perhaps Azrael isn't worth it, as the Libby already has fearless, and I can just give it a PFG to help with invuln's. That way I'll have 34 T5 4++ wounds, possibly with FnP and IWND, for only ~200pts more than I have to pay anyway...
Any other suggestions?

Aha, I see the problem. I would advise against the PFG, as I believe it it gives a 4++ to anyone within 6", friend or foe, and the last thing ogryn need is a boost to their enemy's survivability. Now I know the full situation, here are a few ideas:

1) Bubblewrap them with a couple of non-blobbed PIS, it's a relatively cheap investment that at best stops shooting completely and at worst give the ogryn back their armour in the form of a 5+ cover. With night fighting, this could be even better.

2) If you have access to C:SM, here's a novel one: attach allied Librarian with GOI (chosen from codex powers). Deploy on front edge of deployment zone. DS onto enemy front lines, survive on turn of shooting (which 10 orgyn should be able to do) then charge the nearest squishy unit and wreck face. The libby can even detach from the unit and hop back to help out something else, or use Force dome to get a 5++ for the ogryn. Most armies can't kill 10 ogryn in one turn, so you should manage to survive and do some damage, and either way, it will be one hell of a distraction.

3) If all else fails, just charge headlong at something nasty. The opponent will have to deal with them, and it will take fire away from the rest of the army.

In summary, if you can boost their effeciency for less than around 150 points, then go for it. If not, resort to option 3, it's more effective than you think.

Didn't think of GOI good plan I'm expecting my opponent to be tau so night fighting and cover saves mean diddly squat
And the PFG is everything within 3" of the model, so not that worrying. But yes I see what you mean...
I think I'll try option 2, maybe through in the primaris if he gets FnP.

Anyone have any really wacky ideas?

The problem with Gate of Infinity is it's not likely to exist in a couple of weeks' time...

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Anyone have any really wacky ideas?

I've just now thought of a couple, both involving Allies.

One is to take Corbulo at the front for added survivability - he'll get his standard 3+ armour followed by 2+ FNP, but on the Ogryns' majority T5. As always he can LOS! anything S8 and over to prevent Instant Death, but the beauty of this is that it'll only take a single Wound off an Ogryn unless it's S10...

The other was to simply have them as a barrier for Tau. This does raise the issue of everything getting cover saves unless you have a convenient hill, and it's clumped together enough that it'll suffer from a good blasting/templating. But you can deploy in lines to make the most of Supporting Fire, like so:

T...T...T...T...T...T...T...T...T...T
T...T...T...T...T...T...T...T...T...T
--O-- --O-- --O-- --O-- --O--

(The --O-- represents the Ogryn's wider footprint.)

Even without counting anything at the sides, that's 40 pulse rifle shots at anything charging those Ogryns, or 20 even if there's the threat of a second charge. And of course being Tau, with a Commander with the right wargear attached you can bump that up to hit on a 5+. OH - and the Ogryns get to add their own Ripper guns too.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

If you want a tank for ovryns try Corbulo.

Except he dies like a b**** to S8.

2+ look out sir.

You could add the regular Sister's Ministorum Priest. I think he weighs in at around 100 points with Eviscerator. He gives the Ogryn crew a re-roll to hit and great leadership, along with throwing a bunch of S6 AP2 armor bane attacks. Not really any better than your other options, just sort of fun. You'd have to take a Sister's squad, but it's not the worst thing in the world.

Biophysical wrote:
You could add the regular Sister's Ministorum Priest. I think he weighs in at around 100 points with Eviscerator. He gives the Ogryn crew a re-roll to hit and great leadership, along with throwing a bunch of S6 AP2 armor bane attacks. Not really any better than your other options, just sort of fun. You'd have to take a Sister's squad, but it's not the worst thing in the world.

Probably just better off taking Celestine + Jacobus if I took sister allies. But it's a nice idea

Do they have to be 1 unit of 10? or can yo break them p into 2 units of 5? If you can break them up a mech rush with chimeras on tau lines could work

Has to be a unit of 10 unfortunately

Just realised that for the celestine + Jacobus thing to to work as allies you'd have to have two allied detachments, at 2500pts I'm presuming you're able to do this. This makes the whole cost thing a mega issue because you'd have to have 2 BSS squads now instead of 1. Only way I can think of doing it in one detachment is just having either celestine and a priest or Jacobus on his own. Either way isn't as good as I could be with 2 allied HQ slots, but 250pts of bog standard sisters isn't good especially when you could spend it on something more funky from the IG book

 scrunty wrote:
Just realised that for the celestine + Jacobus thing to to work as allies you'd have to have two allied detachments, at 2500pts I'm presuming you're able to do this. This makes the whole cost thing a mega issue because you'd have to have 2 BSS squads now instead of 1. Only way I can think of doing it in one detachment is just having either celestine and a priest or Jacobus on his own. Either way isn't as good as I could be with 2 allied HQ slots, but 250pts of bog standard sisters isn't good especially when you could spend it on something more funky from the IG book

BSS are cool though and it allows me to have two exorcists or retributor squads, which is no bad thing!