Quick question about rhinos and denying objectives

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Largeblastmarker**

Can rhinos deny objectives?

**DeathReaper**

What does the BRB say? (This has a clear cut answer and is not at all ambiguous).

Check the Index for scoring units it has your answer.

**Chumbalaya**

No, Rhinos cannot deny objectives. No vehicles can, actually.

Page 123

**Largeblastmarker**

ok thanks. I saw a batrep where it was done. strange. thought it might have been in an errata that some dedicated transports can deny.

**rigeld2**

It may have been Bug Guns or The Scouring - vehicles can score and deny in those. Just not generally.

**PrinceRaven**

rigeld2 wrote:
It may have been Bug Guns or The Scouring - vehicles can score and deny in those. Just not generally.

Heavy Support vehicles can score Big Guns Never Tire, Fast Attack vehicles can score in The Scouring, Rhinos cannot score in either of those and vehicles never deny regardless of mission type.

**Ghaz**

PrinceRaven wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
It may have been Bug Guns or The Scouring - vehicles can score and deny in those. Just not generally.

Heavy Support vehicles can score Big Guns Never Tire, Fast Attack vehicles can score in The Scouring, Rhinos cannot score in either of those and vehicles never deny regardless of mission type.

Not true. A Rhino purchased as a transport for a Devastator Squad will score in Big Guns Never Tire.

DW

Ghaz wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
It may have been Bug Guns or The Scouring - vehicles can score and deny in those. Just not generally.

Heavy Support vehicles can score Big Guns Never Tire, Fast Attack vehicles can score in The Scouring, Rhinos cannot score in either of those and vehicles never deny regardless of mission type.

Not true. A Rhino purchased as a transport for a Devastator Squad will score in Big Guns Never Tire.

Actually if said Rhino is purchased as a Dedicated Transport for a Devastator Squad, or Assault Squad (w/o JP), it WOULD count as scoring/denial for Big Guns and The Scouring.

**Largeblastmarker**

The rhino was for tac squad who are troops so......i'm not sure

**chelsea_hollywood**

Dedicated transports count as the FOC slot they were purchased in, so wouldn't a rhino bought by a Dev squad count as a scoring unit (in Big Guns Never Tire)? and a vanilla assault squad's rhino in the Scouring?

**PrinceRaven**

Ok, yes, if it were purchased for Devastators or an Assault squad it would score in each of those missions respectively, it still couldn't deny though.

DW

PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, yes, if it were purchased for Devastators or an Assault squad it would score in each of those missions respectively, it still couldn't deny though.

Is that so? I'm at work and don't have my rulebook on hand. I'll have to look into that myself. I always thought they were denial as well as scoring?

**PrinceRaven**

Big Guns Never Tire (p. 128): "Heavy Metal: ...In fact, in Big Guns Never Tire, even your vehicles are scoring units, providing that they are also heavy support units and they are not immobilised"

The Scouring (p. 129): "Fast Recon: ...In fact, in The Scouring, even your vehicles are scoring units, if they are also fast attack units and are not immobilised"

**CrownAxe**

DW wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, yes, if it were purchased for Devastators or an Assault squad it would score in each of those missions respectively, it still couldn't deny though.

Is that so? I'm at work and don't have my rulebook on hand. I'll have to look into that myself. I always thought they were denial as well as scoring?

The mission gives those vehicles just scouring unit status, not denial unit status

DW

An important distinction I believed I've overlooked then for certain. Though does the rulebook say you may take an objective as long as none of the opponents' scoring or denial units are within 3"?

**PrinceRaven**

Controlling Objectives (p. 123): "You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."

It seems the authors really wanted to enforce the idea that scoring and denial units were separate things.

**Jimsolo**

Vehicles could deny objectives in 5th, though. (Couldn't they? Or was I cheating the whole time I was dropping my pods directly on the objectives?) Is the batrep possibly old, or using 5th ed rules?

**barnowl**

You can prevent a unit from claiming an objective by careful parking of an active rhino over said objective.

**PrinceRaven**

Jimsolo wrote:
Vehicles could deny objectives in 5th, though. (Couldn't they? Or was I cheating the whole time I was dropping my pods directly on the objectives?) Is the batrep possibly old, or using 5th ed rules?

Yes, you could even score with vehicles if they had a scoring unit embarked on them.

**Ghaz**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
Vehicles could deny objectives in 5th, though. (Couldn't they? Or was I cheating the whole time I was dropping my pods directly on the objectives?) Is the batrep possibly old, or using 5th ed rules?

Yes, you could even score with vehicles if they had a scoring unit embarked on them.

You might want to check the first bullet point under the heading 'Scoring Units' on page 123 of the BRB.

**PrinceRaven**

Ghaz wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
Vehicles could deny objectives in 5th, though. (Couldn't they? Or was I cheating the whole time I was dropping my pods directly on the objectives?) Is the batrep possibly old, or using 5th ed rules?

Yes, you could even score with vehicles if they had a scoring unit embarked on them.

You might want to check the first bullet point under the heading 'Scoring Units' on page 123 of the BRB.

I'm well aware you can't do it any more in 6th.

**Pyrian**

PrinceRaven wrote:
It seems the authors really wanted to enforce the idea that scoring and denial units were separate things.

Yes, but that distinction is normally that scoring units are a subset of denial units, rather than vice-versa. Meanwhile, Scouring and Big-Guns-Never-Tire are worded in such a way that only one player or the other can capture a given objective.

**Super Ready**

Pyrian wrote:
Meanwhile, Scouring and Big-Guns-Never-Tire are worded in such a way that only one player or the other can capture a given objective.

Are they? I was under the impression that, if you have vehicles of the relevant slot claiming the objective from both sides and nothing else, then BOTH sides get the points. Since the vehicles are both scoring, but neither are denying.

**Largeblastmarker**

Aren't all scoring units also denial?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
found the batrep http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/546094.page

**Happyjew**

Most people tend to play that if a vehicle somehow becomes scoring it also denies, however, this is a houserule.

**Lobokai**

Happyjew wrote:
Most people tend to play that if a vehicle somehow becomes scoring it also denies, however, this is a houserule.

I've never ran into this. I think the idea that a vehicle can claim an uncontested objective makes sense... and I also like the idea that a scoring infantry unit can come along and not only take the capture away, but also control it themselves.

**Pyrian**

Super Ready wrote:
Pyrian wrote:
Meanwhile, Scouring and Big-Guns-Never-Tire are worded in such a way that only one player or the other can capture a given objective.
Are they? I was under the impression that, if you have vehicles of the relevant slot claiming the objective from both sides and nothing else, then BOTH sides get the points. Since the vehicles are both scoring, but neither are denying.

One or the other is clearly an oversight. As-written, I do think that the "double-claim" argument is stronger, but the RaW is contradictory.

**Super Ready**

You're assuming that it's not working as intended. I believe the opposite, because of the importance of troops. The wording has also changed from previous editions, leading me to believe that it's working *exactly* as intended.

(edit) ok, I have my book now. It's pretty damn clear, if I'm honest, there's nothing confusing about the RAW of it at all.

Page 123 has separate entries for scoring units, and denial units.
Scoring unit rules forbid vehicles from being scoring units, regardless of whether they're Troops.
Denial unit rules forbid vehicles from being denial units, regardless of them being covered by the term "all units".
Big Guns Never Tire and The Scouring tell us that vehicles (in the correct slot) are now scoring units.

Nowhere does it say they are denial units as well - which again, as page 123 shows us, is a different thing.

**Pyrian**

Super Ready wrote:
You're assuming that it's not working as intended.

I'm not assuming that. The rule for objectives in the relevant missions state that it goes to the player, singular, that captured it. That's a contradiction to the rules for claiming objectives.

**Super Ready**

Ahhh, I see. That makes more sense. Personally, the very first line on page 123 overrides that for me anyway. I have noticed something odd, though.

Mission 1 - where you can't have a scoring unit that isn't a denial unit - gives the points to the player who "controls" it. Missions 3 and 4, where it is possible to have scoring units from both sides without denial, uses the word "captures" instead. This term isn't actually defined under objectives, so it could be argued that this was intentionally different... except for Mission 5, which also uses "captures".

Of course, it can also be argued that since "captures" isn't a way of controlling an objective as laid out on page 123, strict RAW dictates you can't score those points at all - which is just plain silly.

The way I'm going to call it, and I completely understand being disagreed with here, is that whoever was performing the wording on the missions was probably phoning it in and as well as using inconsistent wording, didn't consider the possibility of more than one player controlling an objective. So I'm in favour of ignoring that contradiction and sticking with page 123 anyway.