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So, I picked up a GK codex today and saw the author was Mr Ward. Knowing his reputation I was wortied but none the less I read on.
I got to the end of the Coteaz section and stopped.
Coteaz wants to live forever, but as this can only be obtained by a demonic deal, Coteaz cannot have it. But as Mr Ward puts it: "Part if him longs to embrace this small evil, that it may firm up the foundations of his righteous work. It is a temptation that grows stronger with every passing day, but one that Coteaz has resisted, at least so far".
Did I read that right?!?! Is one of the incorruptable turning evil? Did Ward forget the backstory HE wrote earlier in the codex? They are INCORRUPTABLE! It doesnt make sense! Can someone explain how this works please?
"Gaze into the face of Fear!"
"Gaze into the fist of Dredd!"
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
Main article: Puritan
Main article: Radical
The Inquisition can be broadly divided into two differing schools of thought: Puritanism and Radicalism.
To the conservative Puritans, it is of the utmost importance that Inquisition doctrine be upheld, and they are often found persecuting those Inquisitors who are deemed heretical.[Needs Citation]
The more pragmatic Radical Inquisitors follow the Imperial doctrines in spirit, believing that the ends justify the means, and find little value in adhering to convention too closely. They often try to fight fire with fire, using Chaos or Xenos weaponry, employing Daemonhosts, or committing other acts that would be deemed heretical by their more conservative brethren.[Needs Citation]
Inquisitors of both sides are found in great number, and while often at odds with each other, are equally interested in the survival of mankind and the defeat of its enemies. Puritans and Radicals are further divided into individual philosophies, leading to further friction.[Needs Citation]
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/20 17:56:38
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
Codex also says: "Coteaz always refused to contemplate harnessing the power of the warp for his own ends, and aggressively prosecuted those who lack his purity." Pretty sure that means hes a puritan...
"Gaze into the face of Fear!"
"Gaze into the fist of Dredd!"
DRC wrote: Codex also says: "Coteaz always refused to contemplate harnessing the power of the warp for his own ends, and aggressively prosecuted those who lack his purity." Pretty sure that means hes a puritan...
But, not that he is a Grey Knight, so I don't see the problem.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
DRC wrote: Codex also says: "Coteaz always refused to contemplate harnessing the power of the warp for his own ends, and aggressively prosecuted those who lack his purity." Pretty sure that means hes a puritan...
Past tense on all those verbs. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. All it takes is one small step and you can become an radical. Ask Eisenhorn.
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DRC wrote: He executed his mentor for dabbling in forbidden arts! Seems pretty purist
And yet only Grey Kinght were every said to be incorruptable. Still not see the problem.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
The actual quote = Part if him longs to embrace this small evil, that it may firm up the foundations of his righteous work. It is a temptation that grows stronger with every passing day, but one that Coteaz has resisted, at least so far
DRC wrote: He executed his mentor for dabbling in forbidden arts! Seems pretty purist
And yet only Grey Kinght were every said to be incorruptable. Still not see the problem.
The inquisition is based upon purity...
Wow. I seem so picky and rude... Sorry if I am
No, the Inquisition is not based on Purity. THey're based on saving the Imperium by burning heretics and all.
This ^^, I belive you need to reread info on the Inquisition, as you seem to be look with rose colored glasses. There a pretty vile group.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
And it isn't exactly farfetched to think he considers himself puritan when he's already a radical himself. Denial is a powerful thing
Besides, Radicals are the ones who get all the fun. Slaanesh Deamonette test-subject, anyone?
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
Puritan and Radical are often based largely on perspective. Since the beginning of time, humans have judged themselves by different standards than they judge others.
Noir wrote:And yet only Grey Kinght were ever said to be incorruptable.
And the Sisters.
But even then I wouldn't take that as a guarantee. The way I see it, there are no absolutes like that in this setting - and as the new GK Codex shows, even the GK may only be incorruptible because they "know certain ways".
Ever watch The trials of draigo? Coteaz is a huge dick! Would it really surprise you if he would go so far to justify the means to an end by living forever?
Blood Angels 2135
Death Korps of Krieg 1700
Necrons 2405
Tau 1500
Half the BL novels, computer games and any other fluff that GW writes have Inqusitors being corrupted by trying to fight fire with fire - its a major theme.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The ultimate goal, I believe that's hinted in the novels about Inquisitors, is to ultimately just hold back the tide of heretics. That's why it was founded. Men and women and Astartes of inquisitive nature who would seek out the mutant, xenos, and heretic and put them to the torch. How they go about that is entirely up to them.
DRC wrote: So, I picked up a GK codex today and saw the author was Mr Ward. Knowing his reputation I was wortied but none the less I read on.
I got to the end of the Coteaz section and stopped.
Coteaz wants to live forever, but as this can only be obtained by a demonic deal, Coteaz cannot have it. But as Mr Ward puts it: "Part if him longs to embrace this small evil, that it may firm up the foundations of his righteous work. It is a temptation that grows stronger with every passing day, but one that Coteaz has resisted, at least so far".
Did I read that right?!?! Is one of the incorruptable turning evil? Did Ward forget the backstory HE wrote earlier in the codex? They are INCORRUPTABLE! It doesnt make sense! Can someone explain how this works please?
First of all, he is not a Grey Knight, he is a human.
Second, the Inquisitors spend their lives staring into the abyss, and inevitably along the length of their lives, necessity forces them to make more and more seemingly unimportant compromises, and until eventually everyone turns radical before they realize it. This idea is explored quite a bit in Abnett's inquisition novels.
DRC wrote: He executed his mentor for dabbling in forbidden arts! Seems pretty purist
That's kind of the point. He is this hard-core balls to the wall puritan, but now that he is faced with his own mortality and the idea of his work being undone in his absence, he is feeling the temptations of the warp. Maybe his mentor was also a staunch puritan of great renown, who finally succumbed to the temptation now facing Coteaz? Except, Coteaz doesn't have a bright, young aspirant to stop him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/21 02:07:12
Coteaz is not a Grey Knight, he does not benefit from the arduous training, indoctrination, and modifications that make them incorruptible. It is possible for him to be corrupted.
... It's weird, that you managed to read all the way to Coteaz's entry, and that, of all things, is what made you stop reading and freak out, lol.
For the sisters, their falls seem to branch into two categories: willingly turn to Chaos or forcibly turned.
The willingly-turned sister would be Miriael Sabathiel. There have been a number that were turned due to forces such as possession, etc. but yeah, I would agree with Void_Dragon on this.
In regards to the Grey Knights, the story "The Bloodtide returns" in the codex makes me question their incorruptibility. They arrive on a planet where a sort of blood plague turns people into frothing lunatics, and the only people who are able to remain pure are some of the surviving Sisters of Battle. So, in order to make the incorruptible Grey Knights even less...er...incorruptible, they brutally kill the only pure forces left, the Sisters, and then pour their blood all over their own armor, because incorruptible armor + blood of incorruptible innocence = SUPER INCORRUPTIBILITY.
After reading that story I've only come to two conclusions: it's just a poorly thought-out story by someone who couldn't think of a more subtle way of saying "40k is grimdark!" or this serves as a hint that Grey Knights are not entirely incorruptible.
I feel like the second conclusion has to be true, as space marines have clearly fallen to Chaos in large numbers, and Grey Knights, as possibly having come from the Emperor's geneseed, would just be a level of degree harder to corrupt, plus there is only about a thousand of them fighting in select battlefields across the galaxy while the Sister of Battle exist in much more massive numbers.
But going back to "Bloodtide," I couldn't get away from the feeling that Khorne was whispering to the Grey Knights the whole time, saying "use the blood! It is the only way to defeat the Blood God! With more blood!"
And actually, if you look at the 40k Daemons codex, there is a rather long story where the Changeling makes a Grey Knight momentarily doubt and falter while they fire on civilian transports full of refugees. It says nothing about him corrupting, but it does mention that seeds have been sown.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Sisters have had a member fall to Chaos.
1 > 0
Depending on what sources you're going by, it was way more than one. Hundreds, possibly thousands at least. The Daemonifuge graphic novel, the Dark Millennium TCG, the Cain novels ...
Of course, that doesn't change that GW's own fluff has described them as, and I quote from WD #211, "impossible to bribe and utterly incorruptible". And as much as Lexicanum liked to pretend otherwise for quite a long while (even with a falsified citation), Miriael was never mentioned in Codex fluff.
Accolade wrote:For the sisters, their falls seem to branch into two categories: willingly turn to Chaos or forcibly turned.
Even if you're counting Miriael - a character from a collectible card game produced by Sabretooth Games - she was tortured by the Emperor's Children, which does not really sound like a voluntary fall to me. More like a forcibly broken mind.
That being said, it may well be that there is no solid difference between a willing or a forced fall to Chaos, as both require the soul to "surrender" to daemonic manipulation, which in turn requires a seed of doubt to be planted in the mind of the victim. How exactly this seed is planted - several weeks of torture in a CSM cruiser, or many months of subtle whispers from a daemon far away - does not matter. The only thing that matters that a person that lacks the willpower to withstand these influences will give in and be turned. Possession, too, is merely an after-effect of a weak mind, for a stronger one would have resisted.
At least that's how it reads to me.
Accolade wrote:In regards to the Grey Knights, the story "The Bloodtide returns" in the codex makes me question their incorruptibility. They arrive on a planet where a sort of blood plague turns people into frothing lunatics, and the only people who are able to remain pure are some of the surviving Sisters of Battle. So, in order to make the incorruptible Grey Knights even less...er...incorruptible, they brutally kill the only pure forces left, the Sisters, and then pour their blood all over their own armor, because incorruptible armor + blood of incorruptible innocence = SUPER INCORRUPTIBILITY.
Pretty much this. My own conclusion of that incident is that, yes, the Grey Knights are indeed incorruptible - but only because they have ways to artificially steel themselves against the daemonic. This isn't a contradiction to earlier fluff that just mentioned them to be incorruptible, but merely an explanation to how exactly they achieve this condition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/21 18:57:23
Lynata wrote: Depending on what sources you're going by, it was way more than one. Hundreds, possibly thousands at least. The Daemonifuge graphic novel, the Dark Millennium TCG, the Cain novels ...
Of course, that doesn't change that GW's own fluff has described them as, and I quote from WD #211, "impossible to bribe and utterly incorruptible". And as much as Lexicanum liked to pretend otherwise for quite a long while (even with a falsified citation), Miriael was never mentioned in Codex fluff.
That being said, it may well be that there is no solid difference between a willing or a forced fall to Chaos, as both require the soul to "surrender" to daemonic manipulation, which in turn requires a seed of doubt to be planted in the mind of the victim. How exactly this seed is planted - several weeks of torture in a CSM cruiser, or many months of subtle whispers from a daemon far away - does not matter. The only thing that matters that a person that lacks the willpower to withstand these influences will give in and be turned. Possession, too, is merely an after-effect of a weak mind, for a stronger one would have resisted. At least that's how it reads to me.
I was not aware of the circumstances under which Miriael came into lore, I've simply seen her referenced as this one special case of absolute choice in the decision. That being said, reading your description of her turn seems to put her firmly back in the original category of forcibly turned. I probably should refrain from taking everything from Warhammer40k wikia at face value...
The only distinction I can think of at this point would be a difference in slow corruption vs. demonic possession. The second instance I would imagine entails ejecting the soul from the person, so that there is no shred of a former self. Does the "Blood Tide" I mentioned previously simply kick your soul out of your body or are you very very quickly convinced Chaos is the way to go? Would all of those sisters who had been possessed previously been under situations where their psyche was unable to withstand demonic intrusion and thus removed or were they converted through suggestion?
I feel that this distinction may be was GW writers are trying to get at when they say Sisters are "utterly incorruptible."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/21 19:29:51
The changeling story combined with the bloodtide one makes It rather clear that they're only incorruptible due to their good character/personality/willpower, as opposed to some supernatural incorruptibility like what the sisters apparently have (which... kind of makes sense, I guess. Of all the supernatural unexplained phenomena among the factions, the sisters' faith is supposed to be the most ambiguous of all). If the Grey Knights were incorruptible due to some sort of hocus pocus mumbo jumbo (like what they had to use against the Bloodtide), odds are pretty good the daemons of the warp would be aware of it. The fact that the Changeling, who is a top tier daemon, doesn't bring up anything supernatural about their incorruptibility implies that it's mainly just personality and will power.
TiamatRoar wrote: The changeling story combined with the bloodtide one makes It rather clear that they're only incorruptible due to their good character/personality/willpower, as opposed to some supernatural incorruptibility like what the sisters apparently have
I'd put it slightly differently. Both Sisters and Knights are extremely strong willed and can resist Chaos through this alone. However, the mistake you're making here is thinking that what the SoB do is supernatural. It isn't really since their codexes say their AoF are only "seemingly miraculous" (paraphrasing here), and GW's Inquisitor game explicitly says that AoF do not act as psychic powers. Now, with this in mind, it seems that the Sisters who resisted the Bloodtide did so through sheer willpower, whereas the Grey Knights could not resist through willpower alone, and needed to fall back on blood magic to gain immunity to it too. This nicely demonstrates how the Knights haven't fallen so far- since they're willing to resort to dubious means to shield themselves. But as we've seen, it isn't a perfect defense against corruption. There's the Changling incident, and what if there hadn't been any Sisters to slaughter at the Bloodtide incident?
So, in summary, GKs: Strong willpower combined with rituals protects them from Chaos. Sisters: seem to rely on willpower alone, but said willpower is greater than that of the GKs if the Bloodtide is anything to go by. Probably because they're strong believers in the Imperial Creed.
Accolade wrote: I probably should refrain from taking everything from Warhammer40k wikia at face value...
Indeed. While the wikis are helpful for getting an overview of the fluff, they are certainly not 100% accurate. If in doubt, ask around.
Lynata wrote: That being said, it may well be that there is no solid difference between a willing or a forced fall to Chaos, as both require the soul to "surrender" to daemonic manipulation, which in turn requires a seed of doubt to be planted in the mind of the victim. How exactly this seed is planted - several weeks of torture in a CSM cruiser, or many months of subtle whispers from a daemon far away - does not matter. The only thing that matters that a person that lacks the willpower to withstand these influences will give in and be turned. Possession, too, is merely an after-effect of a weak mind, for a stronger one would have resisted.
I dunno, I think it's a little more complex than that. Horus apparently regreted what he had become just before Big E killed him, suggesting that the "real" him was to some extent "buried" under the Chaotic influence. I'd say there's a distinction to be made between willingly embracing Chaos and having one's free will steadily subverted or even taken away completely.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
Accolade wrote:I was not aware of the circumstances under which Miriael came into lore, I've simply seen her referenced as this one special case of absolute choice in the decision. That being said, reading your description of her turn seems to put her firmly back in the original category of forcibly turned. I probably should refrain from taking everything from Warhammer40k wikia at face value...
For what it's worth, Miriael rocks. I have actually incorporated her existence into my own interpretation of the setting - I'm just pointing out that the GW studio so far has ignored her, which may insofar be important in that 40k doesn't have a consistent, uniform background when it comes to such details, and some people like me are less likely to include contradictory novel fluff into their perception.
Anyways, Dan Abnett wrote a short story about the character you can read here, and she and her army have a set of cool TCG cards hosted on the German Lexicanum here. As far as featured leaders of Chaos Warbands go, this is certainly a unique one.
Accolade wrote:Would all of those sisters who had been possessed previously been under situations where their psyche was unable to withstand demonic intrusion and thus removed or were they converted through suggestion?
In GW's material, daemonic possession and subsequent exorcism actually seems to confer a certain immunity - the background for the Exorcists Chapter mentions how the Ordo Malleus basically uses them to experiment with the creation of a Chapter of "Grey Knights lite".
I know the Bloodtide has been mentioned once before, but I can't recall the specifics of how it was described to function. Interestingly, the GK Codex implies that the Sisters who were afflicted by the Bloodtide (some of them are said to have succumbed) just dropped dead, but did not turn, so the Bloodtide seems to function more like a Warpspawned "epidemy" rather than a case of mass possession.
A similar incident could be observed with the zombie plague on Subiaco Diablo during the 13th Black Crusade. Here is the account of one Sister Anastasia, a character featured in GW's Inquisitor RPG, who was unable to withstand this unnatural sickness (although she later recovered of her own strength), in case you're interested.
Accolade wrote:I feel that this distinction may be was GW writers are trying to get at when they say Sisters are "utterly incorruptible."
I dunno. It is a possibility (one of several options, once we delve into potential meanings), it just seems like a very narrow application of the term...
I just think there are no absolutes like that, and for what it's worth, as far as I know this is the only instance they were said to be outright "incorruptible". Other pieces of GW fluff merely attribute them an increased resistance against corruption - which, in theory, could still make them incorruptible, but is much more vague and open to interpretation. I think I actually prefer this to a simple "on/off switch".
TiamatRoar wrote:Of all the supernatural unexplained phenomena among the factions, the sisters' faith is supposed to be the most ambiguous of all
That may generally be true, but it depends on where you're looking! The Codex mentioning the Acts of Faith to be merely "miraculous to the unschooled" suggests they would be non-miraculous to the ones who know better, which would make the effects of faith a matter of willpower, and the divinity attributed to them merely a matter of superstition. Every single one of the Acts of Faith could be interpreted as coincidence or a feat of will, if one were so inclined.
The one non-religious faction of the Imperial military - the Space Marines - still don't believe the Emperor is a god, and they had a lot of chances to see the Sisters performing their "miracles" up-close. Apparently it didn't convince them.
Troike wrote:it seems that the Sisters who resisted the Bloodtide did so through sheer willpower, whereas the Grey Knights could not resist through willpower alone, and needed to fall back on blood magic to gain immunity to it too
Yeah, although I would point out that it's still possible the GKs would not have fallen - they merely wanted an insurance, to make sure they wouldn't fall.
Troike wrote:Probably because they're strong believers in the Imperial Creed.
Sometimes, ignorance is indeed a blessing. This is a major theme in the franchise.
This reminds me of the Black Library story "Daemonblood" written by Ben Counter:
Spoiler:
"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names, too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."
Troike wrote:I dunno, I think it's a little more complex than that. Horus apparently regreted what he had become just before Big E killed him, suggesting that the "real" him was to some extent "buried" under the Chaotic influence. I'd say there's a distinction to be made between willingly embracing Chaos and having one's free will steadily subverted or even taken away completely.
I dunno... Maybe, but I could argue that a person always retains their own personality, regardless of whether you're embracing Chaos willingly or are forcibly subverted. Actually, that's what I've been saying above: You need to "open up" your soul and let Chaos in. It doesn't matter whether this happens voluntarily (slow corruption by promises, actively seeking out Chaos for personal power) or subconsciously (either by force or by seeding doubt in your mind). I think there is also a considerable overlap between these two approaches, for example I'm not entirely sure whether doubt would lead to voluntarily embracing Chaos or if it would classify as a subconscious decision since you're basically "tricked" into it. The only thing that protects you is the strength of your will resisting temptation as well as resisting physical and psychic harm.
A corruption of the soul is a corruption of the soul. That doesn't terminate the personality, and it even opens up the possibility for redemption, as rare as that may be. The corrupted Sergeant Castus in the abovementioned story, for example, also renounced his affiliation to Chaos just before he died.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/08/21 20:20:53
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Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.