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Been checking out the new SM codex info and it seems a bad case of "Everything you can do we can do better" compared to DA.

Also my personal pet hate is the flyers which are just a slap in the face to DA :(

a) Don't use flyers until the rules get better (hopefully 7th Edition) and refuse to play against people that bring flyer
b) Codex creep was always there, welcome to 40k

The problem isn't the rules for flyers, it's that the DA flyers, much like the Tau ones, have gakky weapon load outs that do not suit their roles at all. The Crimson Hunter and Heldrake are just fine.

It's kind of like how the Dark Eldar flyers are backwards. The fighter is good for killing light infantry and the bomber is good at killing other flyers. Using the Razorwing to hunt flyers is doomed to failure since you lack the strength to penetrate their armor, and the Voidraven lacks the volume of fire to effectively engage infantry.

Meh the problem with DA flyer is that they are both overpriced by about 60 points.

I agree that greenwing are rather lack luster they have no benefit over the other chapters marines no special rules to differentiate them at all. space wolves have completely different options. Bloods angels have the red thirst (they need a bit more as well) We could have had some plasma special rules or the option to have two plasma guns in a ten man squad (like space wolves of all chapters!)

I think the da book generally is a flop yes there is good few lists but they are very limited and the only reason I still play them is I normally make up for their short comings with good tactics and skill

(Sorry for grammar and spelling posted from my phone)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although greenwing mech is ok such as cheap preds and whirlwinds but everyone else has that next month

 Mythantor wrote:
Been checking out the new SM codex info and it seems a bad case of "Everything you can do we can do better" compared to DA.
Also my personal pet hate is the flyers which are just a slap in the face to DA :(

Banners and Relics will be unique
special characters will be unique
the option to take better bikes, elite bikes, better terminators, elite terminator, unique flyers and unique land speeders

but yes, if you want pure Green Marines, DA might not be the best option.

95 pts for 5 guys and a lascannon to sit in cover and score a home objective is a pretty good bargain, I think, even in a predominantly Deathwing or Ravenwing list.

Alternatively, 140 points for 10 guys and 40 bolter shots a turn is an even better bargain, if you can keep them in range of the dakka banner.

DA are just like C:SM, with most of the special tricks concentrated into their bikes/terminators. If greenwing armies could do everything a codex army could, PLUS all the death/raven wing options, codex players would be whining.

I don't see anything in the new rumors that makes your army invalid. You are just missing some of the new toys. And to be honest, most of the new stuff is looking kinda "meh" to me, so no big loss.

Sorry about your flyers though. They were bad when released.

It has always been a bad idea to play generic DAs. The codex was written to say "hey, unless you are playing Deathwing or Ravenwing its not an optimal use of the book" Of course the exception is bolter spam banner of win.

If you want to run Tacticals and such, you will be better off using the vanilla dex when it comes out.

I'm not a DA player, so take this with a grain of salt....but I'm starting to put a lot of thought into Greenwing. I think it's actually super viable, just no one is abusing the tricks because they're so focused on Deathwing (garbage) and Ravenwing (finesse and too many hard counters).

This is an Infantry focused edition, and anti Infantry shooting is king. Look at the pulse bomb lists, 200+ pulse shots at 15 inches; taking names and winning tournaments.

The thing is, DA can actually top that. Surround a Land Raider (with banner inside) with Green Wing squads, you can potentially put out 240 shots at 24 inches. That's insane. Who cares if they are easy to kill, they're only 14 points a Marine or whatever. It's stupid good, and I think there's a ton of potential there. 60 Marines is durable scoring, period. Plus, you have all the anti infantry fire you could ever need. Use the rest of the list to cover your weaknesses (or just ignore them, you have so many damn bodies)

Ive been doing pretty good with my Ravenwing, It is not an army some one can just pick up and beat face. I was going to build a GreenWing this tax return . I keep coming accross stuff like this that tends to pull me away from doing so. I only build a army once every other year. And this year is the year i build. I really wanted to go GreenWing.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It has always been a bad idea to play generic DAs. The codex was written to say "hey, unless you are playing Deathwing or Ravenwing its not an optimal use of the book" Of course the exception is bolter spam banner of win.

Also DA counters CSM pretty well with so much PE CSM going around.

Obviously greenwing has problems with Baledrakes just like every meq army has problems with baledrakes

Hordes of C:SM will attract hell turkeys. DA are still in good shape to take on CSM, except for the hell turkeys. Once the Nid, ork, and IG codex are released expect even more horde armies. With stronger ack ack in those books and lots of cheap gribbles hell turkey lists may struggle. I expect 2014 to be the rise of the horde armies in 40k. What do horde armies have a hard time dealing with? Salvo banners.

anonymou5 wrote:
I'm not a DA player, so take this with a grain of salt....but I'm starting to put a lot of thought into Greenwing. I think it's actually super viable, just no one is abusing the tricks because they're so focused on Deathwing (garbage) and Ravenwing (finesse and too many hard counters).

This is an Infantry focused edition, and anti Infantry shooting is king. Look at the pulse bomb lists, 200+ pulse shots at 15 inches; taking names and winning tournaments.

The thing is, DA can actually top that. Surround a Land Raider (with banner inside) with Green Wing squads, you can potentially put out 240 shots at 24 inches. That's insane. Who cares if they are easy to kill, they're only 14 points a Marine or whatever. It's stupid good, and I think there's a ton of potential there. 60 Marines is durable scoring, period. Plus, you have all the anti infantry fire you could ever need. Use the rest of the list to cover your weaknesses (or just ignore them, you have so many damn bodies)

Problem with this is templates are not your friend the banner is easy to kill even if it is a raider, you have no manouvrebility you have to sit there which is pretty crap if your enemy has anything over 24 inches of range and the other problem is simply dont go near them

This has so many hard counters trust me I've tried it and yes the marines are cheap but their not when you have 60 of them and you loose your banner

DA still have a few tricks that are worthwhile
* Bolter banners
* Ravenwing bikes as troops
* Power field
* Rad Grenades
* Terminators as troops (albeit overpriced)
To get the most out of them, you will need to ally in something to give you anti-air firepower to prevent a helldrake from stomping your army.

In regards to greenwing? Just use the C:SM book for your rules. The book you use does not dictate what your fluff is -- its just the dictates the way they play on the tabletop. If you want to play dark angles, by all means play them! Just use the C:SM book and use the rules for an offshoot chapter.

kelewan wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:
I'm not a DA player, so take this with a grain of salt....but I'm starting to put a lot of thought into Greenwing. I think it's actually super viable, just no one is abusing the tricks because they're so focused on Deathwing (garbage) and Ravenwing (finesse and too many hard counters).

This is an Infantry focused edition, and anti Infantry shooting is king. Look at the pulse bomb lists, 200+ pulse shots at 15 inches; taking names and winning tournaments.

The thing is, DA can actually top that. Surround a Land Raider (with banner inside) with Green Wing squads, you can potentially put out 240 shots at 24 inches. That's insane. Who cares if they are easy to kill, they're only 14 points a Marine or whatever. It's stupid good, and I think there's a ton of potential there. 60 Marines is durable scoring, period. Plus, you have all the anti infantry fire you could ever need. Use the rest of the list to cover your weaknesses (or just ignore them, you have so many damn bodies)

Problem with this is templates are not your friend the banner is easy to kill even if it is a raider, you have no manouvrebility you have to sit there which is pretty crap if your enemy has anything over 24 inches of range and the other problem is simply dont go near them

This has so many hard counters trust me I've tried it and yes the marines are cheap but their not when you have 60 of them and you loose your banner

Templates aren't a big deal if you're playing Marines like a horde Army. Space out and make sure your formation has a lot of hard angles in it.

Again, the mobility isn't that big a deal, because if the enemy doesn't come near you; you can control the board. Control the board and you win the game.

What's killing a Land Raider quick enough to make a big difference in a game?
1) Melta: You have more than enough bodies to bubble wrap out to 6 inches (9 for fusion)
2) Railguns: I've never seen a competitive Tau list with more than 1 (6 ed here). If it's Long Strike, 5/6 hit, 1/3 pen (rerolling), 1/2 gets through your Invuln. If it's not him, it's less likely
3) Mass STR8/STR9: Here's where you have an issue, something like Dark Reapers with a Tau Commander can do it. So, solution, run two Land Raiders and move the banner if needed
4) MC smash. They have to get close (and you have the bodies to bubble wrap), then you counter assault with the Deathwing Squad in one of the Raiders

MASS small arms fire is a viable strategy, Tau are winning tournaments with it. DA can do the exact same thing, with better range, a similar points/per dakka ratio. You just have to think of Greenwing as a board control Horde army, and not an elite Marine army.

 Mythantor wrote:
Been checking out the new SM codex info and it seems a bad case of "Everything you can do we can do better" compared to DA.

Also my personal pet hate is the flyers which are just a slap in the face to DA :(

The basic SM Codices have always been solidly better than the specialist chapters IMO. At least for general gaming purposes. The specific chapter books (Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc) are written to fill niche roles that are unique to the theme of the army they represent. Blood Angels are masters of Anti-Horde tactics, with over-the-top powerful HQs (Sanguinor - Mephiston). The Space Wolves are a highly specialized Anti-Psyker army with a bias in favor of melee engagements. Dark Angels are clearly set up for Anti-MEQ and Chaos-hunting. They do not have the numbers or the "big guns" required for dealing with horde armies.

I find it hard to believe that the new SM Codex will out perform the existing chapters in the table top roles. Time will tell though I suppose...

Greenwing work just fine as part of a balanced DA army, but are rarely effective enough by themselves. Azrael synergises very well with them (Fearless and 4++ really helps the survivability of a 10-man tac squad near the bolter banner, and the fact that you can leave them out in the open means you can hide other tac squads behind them, and jump Azzy back if the first one takes too many casualties; all the other tac squads benefit from his Ld 10 too), but it's a bit of a waste to bring him without adding at least a squad or two of Deathwing, Ravenwing, or both. Deathwing and Ravenwing synergise well with the relatively static bolter banner tac squads though -- use the tac squads to defend home or middle objectives, and the other elements to take distant ones.

anonymou5 wrote:

kelewan wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:
I'm not a DA player, so take this with a grain of salt....but I'm starting to put a lot of thought into Greenwing. I think it's actually super viable, just no one is abusing the tricks because they're so focused on Deathwing (garbage) and Ravenwing (finesse and too many hard counters).

This is an Infantry focused edition, and anti Infantry shooting is king. Look at the pulse bomb lists, 200+ pulse shots at 15 inches; taking names and winning tournaments.

The thing is, DA can actually top that. Surround a Land Raider (with banner inside) with Green Wing squads, you can potentially put out 240 shots at 24 inches. That's insane. Who cares if they are easy to kill, they're only 14 points a Marine or whatever. It's stupid good, and I think there's a ton of potential there. 60 Marines is durable scoring, period. Plus, you have all the anti infantry fire you could ever need. Use the rest of the list to cover your weaknesses (or just ignore them, you have so many damn bodies)

Problem with this is templates are not your friend the banner is easy to kill even if it is a raider, you have no manouvrebility you have to sit there which is pretty crap if your enemy has anything over 24 inches of range and the other problem is simply dont go near them

This has so many hard counters trust me I've tried it and yes the marines are cheap but their not when you have 60 of them and you loose your banner

Templates aren't a big deal if you're playing Marines like a horde Army. Space out and make sure your formation has a lot of hard angles in it.

Again, the mobility isn't that big a deal, because if the enemy doesn't come near you; you can control the board. Control the board and you win the game.

What's killing a Land Raider quick enough to make a big difference in a game?
1) Melta: You have more than enough bodies to bubble wrap out to 6 inches (9 for fusion)
2) Railguns: I've never seen a competitive Tau list with more than 1 (6 ed here). If it's Long Strike, 5/6 hit, 1/3 pen (rerolling), 1/2 gets through your Invuln. If it's not him, it's less likely
3) Mass STR8/STR9: Here's where you have an issue, something like Dark Reapers with a Tau Commander can do it. So, solution, run two Land Raiders and move the banner if needed
4) MC smash. They have to get close (and you have the bodies to bubble wrap), then you counter assault with the Deathwing Squad in one of the Raiders

MASS small arms fire is a viable strategy, Tau are winning tournaments with it. DA can do the exact same thing, with better range, a similar points/per dakka ratio. You just have to think of Greenwing as a board control Horde army, and not an elite Marine army.

Have you used this banner?

Remember you have to remain within 6 inches of it, whilst your spreading out to not get wiped out so that's 4 squads max, so your holding two objectives. If you move your twelve inch range or revert back to normal. So with this swarming round this small point or raider your not really controlling the board. So easy to counter for the enemy sit back fire templates don't go within 24.

I have had quite alot of success with a dakka foot build in casual games but I can't see it working in tourneys

Dakka banner works with bikes and land raiders because they're relentless.

Trying to use it on a foot horde won't succeed as now they're immobile. Once you move, salvo forces you to fire up to 12" only. For foot marines to fire salvos at 24" they have to remain stationary and hope the enemy chooses to walk into their kill zone.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Dakka banner works with bikes and land raiders because they're relentless.

Trying to use it on a foot horde won't succeed as now they're immobile. Once you move, salvo forces you to fire up to 12" only. For foot marines to fire salvos at 24" they have to remain stationary and hope the enemy chooses to walk into their kill zone.

Exactly the point I'm trying to make only an idiot would walk into the kill zone of the foot troop

To OP
I agree that the SM dex is looking like it will be a really good book. Your assertions are somewhat silly though as you are missing some key factors here.

The SM book will not be able to field DW or RW. These are most of the DA lore and attraction. The fact is that GW are and always were meant to be support personal for the real purpose of the DA, to capture the fallen. The fallen are hunted by the RW and DW. This tells you that the GW were never meant to be fielded as the entire army or even the focus of the dex.

Despite this the GW get some great benefits in the dex. They are cheap and get access to a number of advantages; A banner that can make them the king of shooting in the 24-15" region, PFG to give 3-4 models a 4++ inv save, and cheap effective HS and FA units to give a long range punch. If you can engage an opponent in the 24-15" region you will beat them silly. This can be done via drop pods and a DWA banner turn 2 or a castle mid board. Your Devs are pretty good but they need serious weapons like LC and PC not the jack of all traits ML or HB which are unnecessary with all the bolter fire you have. The land speeder squads in the DA dex are amazing values, if you haven't thought of taking them then you are missing out.

With PFG the vehicles in the DA dex are amazing in general as you can at will give them a 4++ inv save. Even AV11 vehicles become reasonably resilient when you talk about 4++ inv saves and AV13 vehicles become a real pain to dislodge.

You do need to think outside of the box and use the synergies in the DA dex if you want to get the most out of them.

 En Excelsis wrote:

The basic SM Codices have always been solidly better than the specialist chapters IMO. At least for general gaming purposes. The specific chapter books (Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc) are written to fill niche roles that are unique to the theme of the army they represent. Blood Angels are masters of Anti-Horde tactics, with over-the-top powerful HQs (Sanguinor - Mephiston). The Space Wolves are a highly specialized Anti-Psyker army with a bias in favor of melee engagements. Dark Angels are clearly set up for Anti-MEQ and Chaos-hunting. They do not have the numbers or the "big guns" required for dealing with horde armies.

I find it hard to believe that the new SM Codex will out perform the existing chapters in the table top roles. Time will tell though I suppose...

Your list of roles is pretty hilarious. BA are better anti-MEQ and vehicles than DA. DA are the best anti-horde in the game with the dakka banner and cheap whirlwinds, they are overall not better than any other MEQ army against MEQ. SW are the best SM psykers in the game and are actually better light vehicles than they are anti-psykers, actually from a fluff vs rules standpoint they are probably the worst army as they are all about long range missiles, plentiful psykers, and drop pod delivery...for an army that hates psykers, considers long range firefights cowardly, and hates to fly. The rules don't reflect what you are saying, and the GT winning lists do not reflect it either.

I actually miss the 3ed SM codex with mini dexs for the important chapters. Of course this is really where the saying of SM+ for BA, DA, etc. comes from. It appears the SM dex is somewhat moving back to this but with a replacement technique rather than straight addition of rules.

24" *all round* covers a big chunk of table. Bear in mind that only one member of your 10-man foot squad has to be within 6" of the dakka banner, too. It's perfectly viable to use it on foot, you just have to be careful with how you do so. You're probably not moving till you're satisfied that no more enemies are coming within range.

I'm a very optimistic DA player.
With how all the books have been, I believe the codex will age into 6th, despite its less than fantastic start.

At Adepticon, the guy I tied in my last game of Day 1, ran a DA list that was really quite good. If he had remembered to run a squad of tacticals on the last turn, it would have been him moving onto the finals instead of me. As it were, he was the first alternate for Day 2.

I'm not sure on the specifics, but he had a Librarian in a Command Squad wih Bolter Banner all in a bastion. From there, he had about 50 Tactical Marines on foot and 2 Devestator squads. That's about it. The amount of fire power he put out was literally insane. I'd prolly put the banner inside of a LR instead , but.. The idea is solid.. I'm sure of that.

So um ya space marines can't put out 160 bolter shots plus still have a support system for anti tank

Jpat1213 wrote:
So um ya space marines can't put out 160 bolter shots plus still have a support system for anti tank

Pretty much this.

With the new Ultramarine "Tactical" Doctine that allows the tactical marines to re-roll increasing tacticals' firepower by a decent amount, they still come up with a THIRD of the firepower that a green tactical boy does under the bolter banner....A THIRD. Sure, the bolter banner is the lych pin of the list and requries you to stack up...but seriously, 3 folder better.

That said, the strength of the DA codex is being able to run pretty much anything as scoring. The bolter banner makes the marginal firepower of tacticals and bikes into something crazy and means you can run solid anti-infantry on your troop choices.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
24" *all round* covers a big chunk of table. Bear in mind that only one member of your 10-man foot squad has to be within 6" of the dakka banner, too. It's perfectly viable to use it on foot, you just have to be careful with how you do so. You're probably not moving till you're satisfied that no more enemies are coming within range.

This. Thank you

If Tau can control the board with a 15 inch zone of death, DA can absolutely do it with 24 inches.

If the banner is in a Raider, it's not hard to keep one member of a squad within 6 inches. Just arrange like a starfish, with the Raider in the middle (or adjust as needed). While moving to midfield, button hook one guy away, so you're seven inches away and shooting under rapid fire rules, then set up your salvo castle where it threatens the important part of the board. You can control the table without moving, so long as you position correctly. Hell, I've controlled the table with stationary fleshhounds before, who don't even have guns.

 Mythantor wrote:
new SM codex info and it seems a bad case of "Everything you can do we can do better"

Space marines can have terminator troops!? And deathwing assault reserve shenanigans? And banner of devestation? And the invuln field?! Im somexcited for this codex now!!!!

The focus of my opening post was the tactical marines.

I understand that the focus of the DA book will always be Bikes and Terminators.

It would just be nice if we got acces to some of the fancy new toys. (AA tanks, grav weapons, Centurions, and competent flyers)