Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Valkyrie**

So I've just bought a couple of replacement turrets for my Russes, as the Ryza ones look much better than the plastic version, and now I have a few spare turrets lying around I'm considering converting them and trying out the Russ weapons I've barely used before, are these actually any good though?

Exterminator sounds a bit mediocre but with Grinding Advance, 8 Autocannon shots sounds pretty good.

Eradicator looks crap, I can't see the appeal in it.

Punisher I've been told is only good if you use it on Pask, yet he's already using a Vanquisher, can the Punisher be any good on it's own?

Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?

**Not Online!!!**

Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.

I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?

**jaxor1983**

Valkyrie wrote:
Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?

The Stygies Vanquisher has a co-axial storm bolter, not heavy stubber. Unfortunately, the Mars Alpha Pattern is only for DKoK. I was really glad I had two of them already when the new Imperial Armour came out for this edition.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.

I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?

It's been a minute, but I'm pretty sure the math for all typical game situations favors the batlte cannon. So there's no reason to spend that extra 3 points.

**Ecdain**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.

I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?

Bring a conquerer instead, it's exactly a battle cannon but 48" range and has a coaxial storm boltor that let's you reroll all main turret hits at the same target you fire boltor at(doesn't have to hit just shoot). All for 3 pts more than a regular battle cannon. If I'm not bring tank commanders than that's the version I bring (as you can't give commanders the conquerer)

**Not Online!!!**

Ecdain wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Is the Leman russ Extermintor really worth it? I get for less pts (granted only some) a normal battlecannon that only has on average 1 shot less but a better profile for dealing with bigger stuff.

I guess you pay for the reliability but do people consider it decentish? Or is it more of a sidegrade for some matches or thematic armies?

Bring a conquerer instead, it's exactly a battle cannon but 48" range and has a coaxial storm boltor that let's you reroll all main turret hits at the same target you fire boltor at(doesn't have to hit just shoot). All for 3 pts more than a regular battle cannon. If I'm not bring tank commanders than that's the version I bring (as you can't give commanders the conquerer)

not sure if i can field one since i got the random constrictions since i am playing R&H.
If so that makes it fairly decent then.

**Weazel**

Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?

**Ravemastaj**

Valkyrie wrote:
So I've just bought a couple of replacement turrets for my Russes, as the Ryza ones look much better than the plastic version, and now I have a few spare turrets lying around I'm considering converting them and trying out the Russ weapons I've barely used before, are these actually any good though?

Exterminator sounds a bit mediocre but with Grinding Advance, 8 Autocannon shots sounds pretty good.

Eradicator looks crap, I can't see the appeal in it.

Punisher I've been told is only good if you use it on Pask, yet he's already using a Vanquisher, can the Punisher be any good on it's own?

Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?

A Punisher Russ with Heavy Flamers and Track protection makes for a great distraction tank. Go ahead, shoot it! It basically doesn't degrade! Just move it up max speed at the bottom of turn one or on turn two, Strike and Shroud for some extra protection, and burn that front line!.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

UMGuy wrote:
Wouldn't that be a taurox?

I've thought of using that. The new tank though gets 8 shots of Autocannon for like 106 points, with a bit better armour than a Taurox. The new tank seems like a fun choice for Lascannons too.

**Fisheyes**

Still like the hot-shot volley gun. The trick with scions is getting critical mass. If you dont overwhelm the enemy immediately, you get swarmed

**Apple Peel**

Weazel wrote:
Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?

I’m planning up a pure Scion army, so the playstyle will be a bit different. I’m planning 3 full plasma command squads to drop with a Tempestor Prime. Give him the Auto-reliquary

**Bobthehero**

Fisheyes wrote:
Still like the hot-shot volley gun. The trick with scions is getting critical mass. If you dont overwhelm the enemy immediately, you get swarmed

So do I, but if it was an assault weapon costing 2-3 more points, it would be able to compete with plasma guns, I think.

**MacPhail**

Weazel wrote:
Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?

For under 400 points I run 3 min-maxed plasma squads, a volley gun command, and 2 primes. One prime deep strikes with the plasma squads and the Laurels of Command with Inspired Tactics to order all three squads. I usually deploy the volley guns and the second prime with the Aquila to farm CPs from turn one, but I'll DS them against a static opponent. They're a glass cannon, but they usually cover their points and snag a few VPs.

**Weazel**

MacPhail wrote:
Weazel wrote:
Scion bomb. What's the most efficient loadout? Three squads of 5 guys, 2 plasma each? Any point in hotshot volley gun?

For under 400 points I run 3 min-maxed plasma squads, a volley gun command, and 2 primes. One prime deep strikes with the plasma squads and the Laurels of Command with Inspired Tactics to order all three squads. I usually deploy the volley guns and the second prime with the Aquila to farm CPs from turn one, but I'll DS them against a static opponent. They're a glass cannon, but they usually cover their points and snag a few VPs.

What's a min-maxed squad? 5 guys, 2 plasmaguns, plasma pistol? Or 10 guys, 4 plasmagun, plasma pistol?

Reason I'm asking is I've been using the Loyal 32, but if they nerf the CP battery I might as well run a (Scion) battalion instead that can do some damage. I've been mostly just sitting back with the guardsmen not even bothering with shooting so I'm not really a big fan of the Boring 32.

**MacPhail**

Spoiler:

Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.

**Ecdain**

Thoughts on straken? I hate spending so much on an HQ but with the rule of 3 I'm stretched for company commanders and he's interesting, S7 -1 2 dmg is not weak and adding more attacks to my catachan Frontline doesn't seem bad.

**Spiky Norman**

MacPhail wrote:
Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.

I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.

Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?

**Peregrine**

{whynotboth.gif}

Plasma goes on every model that can carry it.

**MacPhail**

Spiky Norman wrote:
MacPhail wrote:
Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.

I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.

Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?

You trade a smaller footprint for your meat shields. In my experience, dropping into cover and having some ablative wounds gets me a second round of plasma shooting about half the time. The 8 plasma stack fits in tight spots and hits hard, but every wound is an expensive special weapon. It may depend who you face, too... hordes screen their backfield differently than elite armies, people who know Scions don't leave HQs exposed, etc.

**RogueApiary**

Do you guys run into problems in ITC when including Scions in your lists? It feels like they give up way too many easy Primary points and make it a real struggle to earn the kill more primary since they're 3-5 units of 4-5 T3 models, not to mention giving up 1-2 'free' Headhunter points. I stopped taking them because while they were usually point efficient and killed a single big scary thing or even two, they just ended up giving my opponents too many VP over the course of a game. Playing mono Guard in ITC I find to be a struggle for that reason, but running Scions just seem to amplify it. So many easy kill points for the enemy...

**Alpharius Walks**

I ditched Scions pretty quickly in ITC even before the deep strike changes. They struggle even more since the spring FAQ. I would never say do not take them if you enjoy what they offer but from a competitive ITC standpoint I would avoid them.

**Ravemastaj**

Spiky Norman wrote:
MacPhail wrote:
Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.

I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.

Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?

I thought you needed 2 primes to run two command squads. I think one of the FAQ's or Chapter Approved stated you can only bring a command squad for every HQ option you bring, or something along those lines. It was meant to prevent command squad spam.

**Spiky Norman**

Ravemastaj wrote:
Spiky Norman wrote:
MacPhail wrote:
Minimum dudes, maximum plasma, so the small squad you describe. Anything bigger can be hard to squeeze into the drop zone. They don't have much staying power at that size, so a strong counterpunch on Turn 2 is most of what you hope for.

I was planning on building 3 bare-bones troops squads, but then doing 2 command squads of 4 plasma each for minimum footprint and maximum plasma output. That way a Prime and 8 plasmaguns could drop in one place and get Take Aim for all guns.

Is that worse than spreading the plasma out to the normal scion squads?

I thought you needed 2 primes to run two command squads. I think one of the FAQ's or Chapter Approved stated you can only bring a command squad for every HQ option you bring, or something along those lines. It was meant to prevent command squad spam.

You do need 2 primes to run 2 command squads.
I was simply thinking that one of the Primes (with the Warlord trait/relic) will deploy as normal, while the other will deep strike along with the two command squads to give both of them Take Aim orders.

**chrispy1991**

Valkyrie wrote:
So I've just bought a couple of replacement turrets for my Russes, as the Ryza ones look much better than the plastic version, and now I have a few spare turrets lying around I'm considering converting them and trying out the Russ weapons I've barely used before, are these actually any good though?

Exterminator sounds a bit mediocre but with Grinding Advance, 8 Autocannon shots sounds pretty good.

Eradicator looks crap, I can't see the appeal in it.

Punisher I've been told is only good if you use it on Pask, yet he's already using a Vanquisher, can the Punisher be any good on it's own?

Additionally, looking at the Stygies Vanquisher, for 18pts more than my standard Vanquisher loadout I get +1 to hit Vehicles with the main cannon, and can re-roll misses if the Heavy Stubber hits, worth it?

Punisher is actually one of the most powerful variants especially if you put it on a tank commander or Tallarn tank commander. Give it heavy bolter sponsons, hull heavy bolter, and a storm bolter for lulz. Watch the look on your opponent's face as you use the tallarn tank order to scoot your tank commander up the board 10.999 inches and dump 49 STR 5 shots into his front line at BS 3+. Or, if your already in range with the punisher, have that TC order himself to re-roll 1's.

Don't like Tallarn's? Make it vostroyan for 30" punisher cannons instead, spend 1 CP for the vostroyan strat, move up 4.9999 inches, and have the TC order himself to reroll 1's. Now you have 40 Str 5 shots hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's, along with 3 heavy bolters and a storm bolter hitting on 3's rerolling 1's. This will mulch 21 ork boyz on average from the punisher cannon alone. See where I'm going with this?

Final price tag for one of these TC's kitted out in the examples is 213 points.

**Singleton Mosby**

Lothar wrote:
Singleton Mosby wrote:
This weekend I will play a game against an opponent who's taking a lot of Eldar shennanigans with him. Now I know nothing of all of this stuff or what makes his list work, so I can use some tips on how to deal with it. I guess his goal is to kill characters and infantry so I might be good there.

His list:
Farseers skyrunner x2
Warlock
3 x 10 rangers
Hemlock wraightfighter
--
Archon + Haemonculus + Succubus
3 x 5 Kabalite warriors
2x 10 and 6 Mandrakes
--
2 x Shadowseer
2 x Death Jester
Solitaire.

My list:
HQ: Straken + 2 company commanders
Troops: 5 catachan infantry units with flamer or plasma
1 unit of scions in chimera
Fast: 3 Artemia Hellhounds
Elite: Sgt Harker + priest + 2x platoon commander with fist
Heavy: 2x basilisk / 2x Conqueror Russ / Colussus bombard / Heavy weapon team
And a nice Lightning strike fighter with Hellfire rockets.

I guess I just blast the **** out of his various units from a distance while moving my infantry to the front and into combat as long as my characters last. The hellhounds drive into his units pell mell for some nice explosions when they blow up. My priority target will be the Hemlock fighter but I don't know what is scary next to that one. Which units to focus on and which units are capable of dealing a lot of damage on my tanks?

Well, i am afraid your characters will die turn one or two. With 30 rangers they dont really stand a chance. Your armored fist can help you hide them though...

He was a good oponent and indeed, my characters died in droves. His own numerous characters and small units where blown to pieces when I drove two Hellhounds into his lines and both of them exploded. The first exploding Hellhound caused some 20 mortal wounds in total when it went Boom!

The second game was against Harlequins again and I completely tore his army to pieces. The third game was against hordes and hordes of deamons (170 models) and extremely tiresome, which I lost. Overall it was a great tournament. I finished 13 out of 50 players and (2nd best on painting, yay!).

Best performing unit was the Artemia Hellhound, what a wonderefull little tank it is. The Catachan infantry did good as well. My basilisks with Harker and the Lightning fighter didn't perform well because of all the -1's for shooting my enemies were able to use.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ecdain wrote:
Thoughts on straken? I hate spending so much on an HQ but with the rule of 3 I'm stretched for company commanders and he's interesting, S7 -1 2 dmg is not weak and adding more attacks to my catachan Frontline doesn't seem bad.

For Catachan he is a must. A real combat monster (for IG standards) and he aids the squads around you immensly in combat. Not so sure if you don't play Catachan.

**Colonel Cross**

Well, I guess it's Laurel's of Command for me now since you can only regen 1 CP per turn.

**Gnollu**

Grand strategist can grand more than 1 CP in case pf more expensive stratagem? It is not named explicitly in FAQ :(

**Colonel Cross**

Bullgryn Slabshields don't improve invulns anymore. Damn.

**UMGuy**

Colonel Cross wrote:
Bullgryn Slabshields don't improve invulns anymore. Damn.

Honestly, that needed to change. And I'm glad it t did. You can still put out your T5, multi wound unit turn 1, use the new start for +1 cover and take cover for another +1. 0+ armour save

**Kcalehc**

UMGuy wrote:
Colonel Cross wrote:
Bullgryn Slabshields don't improve invulns anymore. Damn.

Honestly, that needed to change. And I'm glad it t did. You can still put out your T5, multi wound unit turn 1, use the new start for +1 cover and take cover for another +1. 0+ armour save

They probably should have just made invulnerable saves not be modifiable by anything as a blanket rule (except perhaps Stratagems and abilities that specifically name them).

**necrontyrOG**

Still no ruling on whether Commissars and the like interact with a pure Stormtrooper army. That's frustrating.

**Ecdain**

necrontyrOG wrote:
Still no ruling on whether Commissars and the like interact with a pure Stormtrooper army. That's frustrating.

What's your Q? I think it's pretty clear personally.

If you have a commissar(or similar units that are in the list of not messing with doctrines) in a full stormstrooper army than everything but commissar still gets extra shots on 6s(stormtrooper bonus) as it states he doesn't ever get the bonus himself but he does not stop the rest of the detachment from getting the bonus. However if we are talking about militarum tempestus than the whole detachment has to very specifically be from tempestus NOT stormtrooper(even though it's same.bonus they are technically their own army)