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Questions one is a basic question in that If a model firers through a third unit at a target does it receive a cover save?
On page 18 the intervening models rule says that if a unit fires through a unit at all a cover save is given however
My friend interperated this as under the section for cover saves so he also said that a model Has to be alteast 25% obscurred to recieve any type of cover save even if firing through a third unit.


2nd Question and i know this topic has been discussed many a time but
If can wounds be allocated to a unit by the DOOM OF MALANTAI when he does not have LOS to the unit? Or i guess more importantly wounds can be caused yes but can they be resolved?

I understand that because the unit is within 6 inches they do indeed roll a leadership test and then take the wounds however the only way to allocate wounds is either shooting or close combat and Even though SPIRIT LEECH is an ability and not a shooting attack there are no other rules to allocate wounds.

So the unit would take the wounds but when resolving the wound pool the wounds would go away as there is no LOS.

I find this myself to be completly against all other logic as the HIVE guard have a rule saying they dont need LOS and yet applying this same logic to the DOOMS ABILITY because it is not a shotting attack, im a bit caught off guard.

And i was hoping anyone who would answer could site me a source, or maybe a ruling from a tourney? This way i have proper counter arguments for anyone eventually.

Question number 1: Not sure the exact wording or page, but if you shoot through a unit, then they get a cover save as if they were obscured or in area terrain (something like that). So if you shoot between two models, the target unit gets a cover save.

2. Technically speaking there is no way to allocate wounds from Spirit Leech. Most people are fine playing that it uses the shooting rules and thus are allocated to the closest models in LOS. The Impaler Cannon does not require LOS to shoot but until they release an FAQ/Errata saying otherwise you still need LOS to allocate the wounds.

1. Some people play it that any unit between the firing model and its target, some play it that you draw a line from the eyes/gun of the firer to the centre of the target and if the line passes through an intervening unit they get cover. some people tree the intervening unit as obscuring terrain, but include the spaces between the models when determining whether or not it covers 25% of the model. I cannot say for certain which way is the correct way to play it as the rules are frustratingly vague.

2. Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack, like Vector Strikes, it does not have the same line of sight requirements when it comes to allocating wounds. Wound allocation rules tell you that in situations where you cannot determine which model is closest to the firing model (which you obviously can't, as there is no firing model) you use random allocation, therefore you use random allocation for wounds caused by Spirit Leech, again just like Vector Strikes.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
2. Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack, like Vector Strikes, it does not have the same line of sight requirements when it comes to allocating wounds. Wound allocation rules tell you that in situations where you cannot determine which model is closest to the firing model (which you obviously can't, as there is no firing model) you use random allocation, therefore you use random allocation for wounds caused by Spirit Leech, again just like Vector Strikes.

Random allocation does not remove the requirement for a model to be in LOS in order to have a wound allocated to it. It just gives you a way to choose who gets the wound when two models are equidistant.

 insaniak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
2. Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack, like Vector Strikes, it does not have the same line of sight requirements when it comes to allocating wounds. Wound allocation rules tell you that in situations where you cannot determine which model is closest to the firing model (which you obviously can't, as there is no firing model) you use random allocation, therefore you use random allocation for wounds caused by Spirit Leech, again just like Vector Strikes.

Random allocation does not remove the requirement for a model to be in LOS in order to have a wound allocated to it. It just gives you a way to choose who gets the wound when two models are equidistant.

I think you're confusing my two points. Point 1: Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack or psychic power, it does not require line of sight. Point 2: Spirit Leech is an exceptional circumstance in which the rules say to use random allocation.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
2. Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack, like Vector Strikes, it does not have the same line of sight requirements when it comes to allocating wounds. Wound allocation rules tell you that in situations where you cannot determine which model is closest to the firing model (which you obviously can't, as there is no firing model) you use random allocation, therefore you use random allocation for wounds caused by Spirit Leech, again just like Vector Strikes.

Random allocation does not remove the requirement for a model to be in LOS in order to have a wound allocated to it. It just gives you a way to choose who gets the wound when two models are equidistant.

I think you're confusing my two points. Point 1: Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack or psychic power, it does not require line of sight. Point 2: Spirit Leech is an exceptional circumstance in which the rules say to use random allocation.

Which still does not over-ride the requirement for a model to be in LOS in order to have a wound allocated to it.

Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

Bloodynecronight wrote:
Questions one is a basic question in that If a model firers through a third unit at a target does it receive a cover save?
On page 18 the intervening models rule says that if a unit fires through a unit at all a cover save is given however
My friend interperated this as under the section for cover saves so he also said that a model Has to be alteast 25% obscurred to recieve any type of cover save even if firing through a third unit.

This has also been discussed quite a lot.
Models get a cover save if you have to shoot through another unit.
A gap doesn't cover anything at all, but still gives a cover save.

Some people (I'm one of them) argue that you need to treat the gap 'as if it was closed and then apply the 25%-rule' to prevent 12" models from gaining a cover save when you see them through 2 Ork Boyz.
I am not really interested in having the entire RAW-discussion again, so you should try to find that thread if you can.
Then you can discuss how you play it with your friends.

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

Does it? How does terrain allocate wounds? Can special terrain and DT tests not cause casualties?

Dangerous Terrain gets around the problem because it doesn't rely on wound allocation. Dangerous Terrain tests are taken by individual models and the wound applied to that model. So you never have to allocate the wound.

Does casualty removal on a unit-basis require LOS, or does casualty removal FROM SHOOTING ATTACKS require LOS?

Anything that requires you to allocate wounds technically requires LOS (unless, of course, a special rule specifically says otherwise, as in the case of Barrage weapons) because it uses the wound allocation process from the shooting section, which requires LOS.

The whole 'requiring line of sight to resolve wounds' is a rule that causes numerous problems within game from the rules as written viewpoint. Only a handful of rules which inflict wounds, without requiring line of sight when targeting to begin with obviously, address how we go about resolving the wounds created. Many more are simply blank when it comes to this matter, Tau SMS systems I am looking at you, which creates a situation where you can target an enemy but are left without permission to allocate and resolve the wounds the attacks actually create. In such situations you are going to simply go by rules as intended, talking to the organizer or your opponent in order to ensure they allow you to ignore all line of sight requirements when using a weapon/ability that ignores line of sight when it comes to targeting.

Old thread on the matter:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/464782.page

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

I think he was referring to this one:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends." (16)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

I think he was referring to this one:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends." (16)

But Spirit Leech isn't a shooting attack, so this doesn't apply... Spirit Leech is a specific special rule and as such would follow random allocation, and doesn't need LoS to cause wounds.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

I think he was referring to this one:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends." (16)

and that obviously applies to shooting attacks... which it is not.

Also of note, When preforming a Flier/FMS zooms/swoops off the table it's allowed a VS but can draw no LOS when the wounds are being allocated. It's, roughly the same scenario. Are you saying wounds cannot be allocated there either?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

I think he was referring to this one:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends." (16)

But Spirit Leech isn't a shooting attack, so this doesn't apply... Spirit Leech is a specific special rule and as such would follow random allocation, and doesn't need LoS to cause wounds.

While I agree, it's not really stated in RAW either way. Seems the obvious RAI and HYWPI though.

So without using the shooting rules how do you allocate wounds form spirit leech?

If you are using the shooting rules, why are you cherrypicking which ones to apply?

Either:

1) You apply the shooting rules and you get to allocate wounds and remove casualties, but if the unit is out of line of sight then the wound pool empties.

Or

2) you do not use the shooting rules and have no way to allocate wounds in the first place.

 jifel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

I think he was referring to this one:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends." (16)

But Spirit Leech isn't a shooting attack, so this doesn't apply... Spirit Leech is a specific special rule and as such would follow random allocation, and doesn't need LoS to cause wounds.

If its not a shooting attack, it can't use random allocation...

rigeld2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

I think he was referring to this one:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends." (16)

But Spirit Leech isn't a shooting attack, so this doesn't apply... Spirit Leech is a specific special rule and as such would follow random allocation, and doesn't need LoS to cause wounds.

If its not a shooting attack, it can't use random allocation...

Way to hit the nail on the head! ^^^That is the problem right there. I'll do some searching around but I really don't think it's covered anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well the first step was easier than I thought. It's random allocation... lol.

It's right in the random allocation section:
"can also occur if the position of the attacker is unclear, such as with the Tyranid Mawloc's Terror From the Deep special rule, a Callidus Assassin's Polyrnorphine special rule..."
Clearly this can be applied to non-shooting attacks... now, onto the LOS issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, that was easy to. Random allocation does not care about LOS.... thought this was gonna be hard :(

Except the position of the attacker is absolutely clear.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the position of the attacker is absolutely clear.

You're right. There is actually no reason, regular allocation can't be used.... where is my brain? That does not care about LOS either lol. Those restrictions are only for shooting attacks.

@OP: Use the normal wound allocation process!

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the position of the attacker is absolutely clear.

You're right. There is actually no reason, regular allocation can't be used.... where is my brain? That does not care about LOS either lol. Those restrictions are only for shooting attacks.

@OP: Use the normal wound allocation process!

Find permission to use shooting allocation for a non-shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, Spirit Leach doesn't require LOS. But in 6th edition, casualty removal does.

I believe you're referring to this: "if no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it"
If there is no firing unit, this rule cannot be applied.

I think he was referring to this one:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends." (16)

But Spirit Leech isn't a shooting attack, so this doesn't apply... Spirit Leech is a specific special rule and as such would follow random allocation, and doesn't need LoS to cause wounds.

If its not a shooting attack, it can't use random allocation...

Right, like how Vector Strikes can't... oh wait yes they can. Just because the wound allocation rules are in that section of the book doesn't mean they only apply to shooting attacks.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Just because the wound allocation rules are in that section of the book doesn't mean they only apply to shooting attacks.

The wound allocation rules are not just in the shooting section.

The shooting section contains rules for wound allocation. The close combat section also contains rules for wound allocation. For anything that isn't a shooting attack or a close combat attack, it's anybody's guess which wound allocation rules should be used.

However, if you are going to apply the shooting section rules to something other than shooting, you would need to apply them in their entirety... Thinking that you can just ignore anything that refers to the specific condition that is being replaced in order to use those rules is the sort of foggy argument that led to people believing that vehicles couldn't take Invulnerable saves last edition.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If its not a shooting attack, it can't use random allocation...

Right, like how Vector Strikes can't... oh wait yes they can.

Vector Strike can use Random Allocation only because the rules for Vector Strike specifically tell us to use Random Allocation.

Or we accept the fact that ANY attack/ability that does not require LOS has incomplete rules as the Wound Pool empties on Impaler Cannons, indirect barrage blasts...etc.

Impaler Cannons, Astral Aim, et al do not require LOS to shoot. I always clarify with my opponents how to allocate wounds in these situations. Everyone has said allocate as normal ignoring the out of sight clause (HWPI)

Strict RAW the only way to allocate wounds to models out of sight of the firing model is
a) the weapon tells you how to do it.
b) the model fired a blast weapon

Barrage uses a blast marker and as such has permission to allocate to models out of sight.

Fragile wrote:
Or we accept the fact that ANY attack/ability that does not require LOS has incomplete rules as the Wound Pool empties on Impaler Cannons, indirect barrage blasts...etc.

Correct. And?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Right, like how Vector Strikes can't... oh wait yes they can. Just because the wound allocation rules are in that section of the book doesn't mean they only apply to shooting attacks.

Do Vector Strikes have a rule telling you how to allocate? Spirit Leech does not.
Comparing the two isn't valid.

Meh, we're 2 months off a new codex, it'll be resolved then when they nerf the Doom into oblivion.