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As a Ravenwing player I am very interested in the comparison between the current Ravenwing options available in Codex: DA, and the bike options in the soon to be released 6th edition codex space marines.

With the codex not currently released there can only be a speculation at this point, but once it is released in a few days I hope this thread can be used to discuss the pros and cons.

I think our pro will be plasma talons and the banner and the pros of white scars are the +1 to jink on all the bikes and being able to unlock bikes as troops without having to take a special character

Don't forget the PFG. When getting helldraked the +1 to jink does nothing.

I am mainly interested in what options are available for the basic SM player who has 20 unbuilt bikes.. lol

Do I need to source plasma and meltas etc for my future squads?

-P

 porkuslime wrote:
I am mainly interested in what options are available for the basic SM player who has 20 unbuilt bikes.. lol

Do I need to source plasma and meltas etc for my future squads?

-P

Plasma, meltas, and grav guns.

From what rumours I have seen (range 18 salvo 3/2) would greatly benefit from the relentless given by the bikes. Whether they can be taken by bikes is another matter though. The debate between plasma and grav will rage on for a while imo.

kelewan wrote:
being able to unlock bikes as troops without having to take a special character

This isn't exactly much of an advantage considering that a) you will still have to take *A* specific character (Captain or Chapter Master) and b) Sammael is just *so damned good*.

A couple of other things that haven't been picked up on. Space Marines won't be getting the Darkshroud, nor (I believe) will their bikes get Hit and Run.

 Super Ready wrote:

kelewan wrote:
being able to unlock bikes as troops without having to take a special character

This isn't exactly much of an advantage considering that a) you will still have to take *A* specific character (Captain or Chapter Master) and b) Sammael is just *so damned good*.

A couple of other things that haven't been picked up on. Space Marines won't be getting the Darkshroud, nor (I believe) will their bikes get Hit and Run.

Sammael is nothing special (model aside), lets be honest. 200 points for 3+/4++ and no options for customization to better fit your army. The speeder is an interesting option but still expensive.
Personally I would love to see the option in codex DA to take a bike captain to unlock bikes (like the old RW days), it just allows you to personalize your army a little more.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Sammael is nothing special (model aside), lets be honest. 200 points for 3+/4++ and no options for customization to better fit your army. The speeder is an interesting option but still expensive.

...you're kidding, right? You've missed out the most important points. That 3+/4++ comes with T5, Eternal Warrior and 4W, making him very survivable, and he's an IC so you can hide him in a unit as well.
Then there's his AP2 sword that strikes at Initiative (aside from Rending, the only one in the Codex). Add to that the fact that he has a plasma cannon at BS5, so minimal scatter on that, and he's a heavy infantry hunter of such quality that at lower points value games you don't need Black Knights or a Command Squad at all.

If anything I'd say the Land Speeder is the dud option, it's way too expensive considering you lose his close combat potential and it can still be taken out easily from the rear (not too difficult with Deep Strikers). A Land Raider is not much more expensive, isn't quite as fast but typically has similar firepower, is tougher *and* can transport a unit.

I think you are over estimating some things here:
1) 3+/4++ and only 3 wounds makes him only as durable vs small arms fire as a 3 man bike squad.

2) 1 BS5 plasma cannon shot for 200 points, is still just 1 plasma cannon shot. It will still fail 1/6th of the time, and will still scatter.

3) 4 str 4 attacks is pretty mediocre in the world of 40k, even if it is ap2 at initiative. There are so many things he will fall flat on his face against.

4) Eternal warrior is a little bit wasted on him don't you think? At T5 he shrugs off most attacks anyway. Only hammerheads and MC smash among a few other things could cause Insta-death.
It is of course still a positive of sammael, but EW on a bike IC is not the highest priority.


Ok, lets compare this to the option of a SM bike captain with artificier armour, SS and Thunder hammer. Which one is more effective? Who costs more and who is more difficult to remove from play?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
4) Eternal warrior is a little bit wasted on him don't you think? At T5 he shrugs off most attacks anyway. Only hammerheads and MC smash among a few other things could cause Insta-death.

You've got me on 3 Wounds, I made a mistake there. But being able to put Eternal Warrior on an IC into any squad is a big deal as it allows you to protect other models - look at how many people take Lysander or Draigo for the same reason. Admittedly, he's not as rock-nails-hard as those two but the capability is there, and arguably more important in a full Ravenwing army where every model counts.

Sadly, doing this does limit either his or the unit's damage potential whilst they have to target the same thing.

Ok, lets compare this to the option of a SM bike captain with artificier armour, SS and Thunder hammer. Which one is more effective? Who costs more and who is more difficult to remove from play?

That Captain will currently set you back... oh, look! Over 200 points. Not sure on the cost in the new book but I don't exactly see it being under 150 any time soon. The Captain has a slight edge for survivability, and a bigger advantage against small arms fire (2+/3++ versus 3+/4++ and EW), but Sammael is definitely more effective. The reason for this is that you don't usually want your bike units stuck in close combat. The character is an exception because they're so killy, but not so for the unit they're with, and Ravenwing Hit and Run allows Sammael to leg it and have another potshot before charging again anyway. I'll take this over better odds on an MC any day, since there are other tools in the army for taking those on.

 Super Ready wrote:

kelewan wrote:
being able to unlock bikes as troops without having to take a special character

This isn't exactly much of an advantage considering that a) you will still have to take *A* specific character (Captain or Chapter Master) and b) Sammael is just *so damned good*.

A couple of other things that haven't been picked up on. Space Marines won't be getting the Darkshroud, nor (I believe) will their bikes get Hit and Run.

WS bikes will have H&R.

look at how many people take Lysander or Draigo for the same reason.

But both of these are T4, so gain much more from the rule. Draigo especially, as he can protect those W2 paladins from lascannons and other nasty str8+ ap 2 fire. EW is good, but I would have much rather had it on Belial or Azrael where it would have had greater use, and seen a price drop on Sammael. T5 already protects him from most stuff with regards to instant death.

For me, one of the biggest downsides of Ravenwing over SM bikes is being forced to take sammael. Not because he is terrible, but rather because you are forced into taking him, and not allowed any options. For me this takes character away from my army, and makes it just another ravenwing list. I would have much preferred having sammael as a special character, and then an option for a captain (special bike captain of some description perhaps?) to make bikes a troop choice, giving players both options. Its hard to believe that each successor chapter of the dark angels also has a guy named Sammael who has the last flying bike in the Imperium.

I also find him rather average for his points, certainly not a selling point of the army. YMMV, but I don't see him as a power house character, or much of a force multiplier. (That is, him using his jet bike, I've yet to use my new speeder model of him. However at the moment the poll I created is 4:1 in favour of using the bike. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/543741.page)

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
For me, one of the biggest downsides of Ravenwing over SM bikes is being forced to take sammael. Not because he is terrible, but rather because you are forced into taking him, and not allowed any options. For me this takes character away from my army, and makes it just another ravenwing list. I would have much preferred having sammael as a special character, and then an option for a captain (special bike captain of some description perhaps?) to make bikes a troop choice, giving players both options. Its hard to believe that each successor chapter of the dark angels also has a guy named Sammael who has the last flying bike in the Imperium.

Ah, that's fair enough then, and I can completely understand. I misread the intent of your posts before, in which case. I'd still much rather take him than a bog-standard bike Captain, though, even at his points cost.

The biggest advantage of white scars will be significant cost reduction plus a better supporting book. Both have great rules however there will be enough savings to influence a vindicator or las pred.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or for that matter the completely in every way better stormtalon.

 lazarian wrote:

Or for that matter the completely in every way better stormtalon.

QFT. Certainly agree with you here. I may buy some nephilims and use them as stormtalons if I run my RW list as whitescars in the future. (This said I'm still not sold on the idea of flyers in a bike list.)

Well, we don't have the new C:SM book yet, so its hard to guess.

If I were to make a guess. Ravenwing will have more Dakka Per Point (DPP) and C:SM will have more Resilience Per Point (RPP)

What do I mean?
www.simhammer.com

Ok so the rumours I have heard on the new bikes so far:

(With white scar tactics)
21 points
hit and run
skilled rider
+1 str HoW hits

Khan - gives all bikes scout.

If these are true then they do seem to be a massive one up over the basic ravenwing bikes.

Yeah just got done reading the new codex, I'm ok without the skilled rider on all RW bikes but the 6 points difference come on!! Well here's to hoping they give us ravenwing a FAQ.

Very unlikely GW will do any such thing. Like a lot of us have been saying...Dark Angels should have come out after C:SM because of issues like these. I knew this was going to happen and the Black Knights can only give us so much pride!

There should certainly be an FAQ which adds grav weapons into the DA armoury. For one of the oldest chapters not to have any of these guns is a little bit off.
Also they seem perfect for bike squads.

Yep, and while I agree with you, I already had a thread on this very subject and people did nothing but bash my complaints. Lets face this issue together and wait 3-5 years until the next big DA let down!

So it seems now the saving graces of the ravenwing, over a whitescars list, are the bolter banner, black knights, darkshrouds and divination librarians.

Of these only the bolter banner cannot be used to full effect if DA were taken as allies by a whitescars force. (Though of course only 1 RCS and either one black knight or darkshroud could be taken).

The dakka banner does create a formidable alpha strike and unique play style over the new C:SM whitescars, so it is not a totally full gone conclusion to use the ravenwing as proxy whitescars.

However in almost all other aspects whitescars seem to have the advantage. Furthermore they could always ally in a DA libby on bike and get a Ravenwing command squad to use. Maybe this is the way we will see bike armies go in the future.

 Shadox wrote:
Don't forget the PFG. When getting helldraked the +1 to jink does nothing.

Don't forget SM's option for AA. We got somewhat decent anti-air, DA gets flack missile .____.

It truly does suck and to think our bikes worse in comparison and are more expensive to bring :(

The one downside SM bikes do have is that they do not come with 'Scout'
Of course this can be rectified by having khan as your warlord, but if you want it then it does of course tie up one of your HQ slots. (At least he is some 50 points cheaper than sammael)

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The one downside SM bikes do have is that they do not come with 'Scout'
Of course this can be rectified by having khan as your warlord, but if you want it then it does of course tie up one of your HQ slots. (At least he is some 50 points cheaper than sammael)

Bikes benefit from the ravenguard chapter tactics and gain scout without khan.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The one downside SM bikes do have is that they do not come with 'Scout'
Of course this can be rectified by having khan as your warlord, but if you want it then it does of course tie up one of your HQ slots. (At least he is some 50 points cheaper than sammael)

Bikes benefit from the ravenguard chapter tactics and gain scout without khan.

Unfortunatel Ravenguard don't get Scouts on bulky or very bulky models at all. It's a bit of a letdown really. Though for the life of me I can't figure why bikes don't have that rule being bigger than jump pack model.

Lets face it guys...
Ravenwing isn't completely out of the water yet but I truly am disappointed with GW and the supposed "love" for their precious Dark Angels! C:SM can do most of what the DA call trade secrets better except for a full on TDA Army (again, the truth be told isn't that great anyways)
The C:SM biker squad can have up to 9 strong while the DA's only get 7 (plus a LS), any Captain or Company Master can make them troops (deadly combos too), and to top it off.....they are what 6pts cheaper than RAS!!!! Here we are just talking about the Ravenwing....don't even get me started on the overall smashing of the DA Codex

andrewm9 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The one downside SM bikes do have is that they do not come with 'Scout'
Of course this can be rectified by having khan as your warlord, but if you want it then it does of course tie up one of your HQ slots. (At least he is some 50 points cheaper than sammael)

Bikes benefit from the ravenguard chapter tactics and gain scout without khan.

Unfortunatel Ravenguard don't get Scouts on bulky or very bulky models at all. It's a bit of a letdown really. Though for the life of me I can't figure why bikes don't have that rule being bigger than jump pack model.

Even if they could gain scout from this source, you would have to trade it for skilled rider, hit and run and +1 strength HoW. Which wouldn't be worth it in my opinion.

Bikes don't have the bulky rule.