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Hey

Basically a question that has been on my mind ever since I was tabled in an Apocalypse game by Space Wolves using my Crons. One of my friends had 25 rune priests with that psychic power that removes squads on a failed initiative test. [ Jaws of the World Wolf or something like that]. We started arguing but I stopped it using the time old "1-3 its my choice, 4-6 its your choice on the roll of a D6".

I have checked the Necron FAQ [from April 2013] and I saw nothing in the FAQ that had anything about my problem.

The BRB FAQ has something saying "removed from play"= removed as casualty, meaning you could ,as a necron , have your RC rolls. However the D-strength weapons explicitly disallow them.
Did you really remove a whole squad for JoTWW ? It removes models, so unless placement got you you shouldn't

Aside from wiping the unit nothing (non-apoc wise anyway) disallows reanimation. Though theres a couple things that really should specifically state no, JoTWW and SAG Boxcars to name a couple since the model wasnt destroyed it DISAPPEARED lol

From my understanding, necrons can only take their RC rolls if they suffer a wound. As JotWW simply removes a character from play, there is no wound caused. This works the same for IWND, FNP and EW. Non of these rules work on a model taken out by the power. It's one of the things that truly sets it apart from most other things in the game. (The fact it ignores most of the games own rules).
This is of course unless B0B MaRlEy is right, and there is indeed an FAQ I haven't seen which clarifies the whole 'removed from table but isn't wounded' problem in 40k.

Page 4 of the FAQ does state that any model removed from play via a special rule is treated as if it was removed as a casualty. They even use Jaws of the World Wolf as an example of such an ability, making it an FAQ directly related to the question on hand. This would allow any for any special rules or abilities, that can be evoked whenever a model is removed as a casualty, to take affect whenever a model is removed from the table via any method, including simply 'disappearing.' I would need to review the Necron book again but if the counter is placed simply because a model is removed as a casualty, which I feel is the terminology used within the reanimation protocol rule, then Jaws of the World Wolf is not enough to prevent the reanimation test.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
From my understanding, necrons can only take their RC rolls if they suffer a wound. As JotWW simply removes a character from play, there is no wound caused. This works the same for IWND, FNP and EW. Non of these rules work on a model taken out by the power. It's one of the things that truly sets it apart from most other things in the game. (The fact it ignores most of the games own rules).
This is of course unless B0B MaRlEy is right, and there is indeed an FAQ I haven't seen which clarifies the whole 'removed from table but isn't wounded' problem in 40k.

1) RP is triggered by being removed as a casualty, not from suffering a wound.

2)BRB FAQ pg4:

"Q: If a model is ‘removed from play’ due to such effects as failing
their Initiative test against ‘Jaws of the World Wolf’, does this count
as being removed as a casualty? (p15)
A: Yes."

BOB MARIEy- Yes I was basically taking whole squads off the table, being only Initiative 2. At best It was leaving 3 warriors. Then those warriors either failed morale or were wiped out by a few bolters.

Thanks for the clarification. I already knew that Necrons didnt get reanimation against Strength D weapons.

I can see your logic there Big Blind Bill. Ill remember that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now I swear revenge against all players who use JoTWW...

Thank you Maelstrom808.

Funny Thing in the Spacewolve FAQ it is writen down if Crons get a RP for such an effect, but not under JoTWW.

Its Lukas Ability "Last Laugh" where its clarified and since this ability works like JoTWW it counts for both.

Doesn't the D Strength Weapon entry in the Apoc book specifically say that Necrons don't get reanimation protocols against it?

Yes, it does. As several posters have already pointed out.

Fandarel wrote:
Funny Thing in the Spacewolve FAQ it is writen down if Crons get a RP for such an effect, but not under JoTWW.

Its Lukas Ability "Last Laugh" where its clarified and since this ability works like JoTWW it counts for both.

No, all it does is clarify the effects of one unit's ability. You do not automatically apply that to another unit's ability because it has similar wording. In some cases where it's not clear, you can house rule it that way as it makes the most sense, but that's not how it's handled via RAW. If Lukas's FAQ had contradicted the BRB FAQ on RFP effects, you'd still have to use the BRB FAQ for JotWW. Thankfully, everything is nice and consistent in this case (for a change).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dark_penguin1 wrote:
BOB MARIEy- Yes I was basically taking whole squads off the table, being only Initiative 2. At best It was leaving 3 warriors. Then those warriors either failed morale or were wiped out by a few bolters.

Thanks for the clarification. I already knew that Necrons didnt get reanimation against Strength D weapons.

I can see your logic there Big Blind Bill. Ill remember that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now I swear revenge against all players who use JoTWW...

Thank you Maelstrom808.

No probs

Keep in mind, it's still nasty as all get out because you still lose the same number initially, still leaving them low on numbers and vulnerable to being wiped out by some random bolter fire...and the remaining members still have a chance to fail their leadership before you get to roll for RP (although at LD10, that should be rare).

Is a RP a save? I don't think it is. So you could take it against things that dont allow a save. But JoTWW removes models. I would guess you can't take RP against it. I don't have the rulebook in front of me though.

 spacewolved wrote:
Is a RP a save? I don't think it is. So you could take it against things that dont allow a save. But JoTWW removes models. I would guess you can't take RP against it. I don't have the rulebook in front of me though.

As already posted above, RP is taken after you remove a model as a causality, the BRB FAQ also stated above shows that things that are remove from play are removed as a causality, this is the heart of the debate.

I've not seen the Necron Codex so i don't know the RAW, but I'd argue a re-animation protocol is taken when a model is reduced to 0 wounds. (i doubt something still alive will need to reanimate?)

Jaws of the World wolf doesn't take off wounds, its a straight up 'remove from play' - technically no wounds are lost -meaning technically the model being removed still has its full amount of wounds therefore would deny it being able to make a re-animation protocol. Its just removed from play.

Without havign the BRB or FAQ to hand i'd speculate that the FAQ clarifying that models 'Removed from play' count as 'Removed as a casualty' in this instance probably due to the wording of awarding kill points - I.e. if i wiped out a squad of necrons with JOTWW they're all 'removed from play' not 'removed as a causalty' therefore denying myself a kill point? - now with the FAQ because they are removed from play, it counts as being removed as a casualty therefore awarding me a kill point.

EDIT:

BRB Definition of a model being removed as a casualty is when a model is reduced to 0 wounds.

A model removed from play only Counts As being removed as a casualty. it isn't actually being removed as a casualty.

In a similar example - a model can 'count as' moving through difficult terrain without actually moving through difficult terrain.

... I like imagining the fluff behind it - Big hole opens up in the ground, bunch of necrons fall down - 'i know lets trigger our reanimation protocol' - 'big whoop we're still falling down a hole'

So what happens if taken down by Eldar distort weapons?

 Yetii wrote:
I've not seen the Necron Codex so i don't know the RAW

And this should have been the end of the thought process...

 Bhazakhain wrote:
So what happens if taken down by Eldar distort weapons?

Doesn't matter, to prevent a necron from getting back up (in normal games) you have to make his squad flee.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Yetii wrote:
I've not seen the Necron Codex so i don't know the RAW

And this should have been the end of the thought process...

Come on lets not get petty about this - don't post in a forum if you don't want peoples opinions!

 Yetii wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Yetii wrote:
I've not seen the Necron Codex so i don't know the RAW

And this should have been the end of the thought process...

Come on lets not get petty about this - don't post in a forum if you don't want peoples opinions!

Well the point being made is that someone is posting incorrectly about a rule where they admit they do not know RAW and are only speculating, despite several people in the post above pointing out the FAQ.

 Yetii wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Yetii wrote:
I've not seen the Necron Codex so i don't know the RAW

And this should have been the end of the thought process...

Come on lets not get petty about this - don't post in a forum if you don't want peoples opinions!

It's impossible to create an informed opinion when you don't know all the involved rules.

Hint: your post had no basis in the actual rules and your conclusion is incorrect. Necrons can stand back up after being Jaws'ed.

[u]

rigeld2 wrote:

It's impossible to create an informed opinion when you don't know all the involved rules.

Hint: your post had no basis in the actual rules and your conclusion is incorrect. Necrons can stand back up after being Jaws'ed.

I hold my hands up - my post was very speculative - i'll make note to avoid speculation and (Point/evidence/explain) clearer in future

I know the rules involved aside from the Necron one as Written - I based my ramblings on a fairly solid article i had read definitising the use of Jaws of the World wolf with some speculation on the 'Counts as removed as casualty' FAQ. It appears the article was written prior to that FAQ being added so had my wires crossed with misinformation!

The article references a casualty as 'If at any point a models strength, toughness or wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty' (WH40K, pg3.) which i was basing my point on.

Actually reading through the rules (and as much as it pains me to say it) - I actully agree with the necron players on this one!

 Yetii wrote:
Actually reading through the rules (and as much as it pains me to say it) - I actully agree with the necron players on this one!

Note that I'm not (and likely never will be) a necron player. Just pointing out that accurate, current information is important in forming an opinion.

The other point i was going to mention - Were all 25 Rune priests using JOTWW? As i'm pretty sure theres restrictions in the codex on having 2 Rune Priests with the same psycic power combo's meaning he could probably only have about 6/7.... might be worth a check unless Apocolypse changes that?

 Yetii wrote:
The other point i was going to mention - Were all 25 Rune priests using JOTWW? As i'm pretty sure theres restrictions in the codex on having 2 Rune Priests with the same psycic power combo's meaning he could probably only have about 6/7.... might be worth a check unless Apocolypse changes that?

Heh... and you're more concerned about the power combo than you re about them having 25 rune priests?

Does the space Wolf Chapter even have 25 rune priests?

Normal 40k force Org. chart at 2000points - A Space Wolf Army can take up to 8 Rune priests (Or any other HQ slot for that matter) provided they follow the limitations laid out by the codex. - Point being regardless of how many of them there are only 6/7 of them should be able to use Jaws.

It's simple, you take 6 RPs and Njal. Each RP has Jaws and one other psychic power, Njal knows all of them thus you re fulfilling the requirements set forth by the FAQ all 7 can use Jaws.

In Apocalypse the only rule on army lists is that units must be the correct size and there can only be a single instance of any Unique character (which means there can be only Njal in the entire game).

 Happyjew wrote:
It's simple, you take 6 RPs and Njal. Each RP has Jaws and one other psychic power, Njal knows all of them thus you re fulfilling the requirements set forth by the FAQ all 7 can use Jaws.

In Apocalypse the only rule on army lists is that units must be the correct size and there can only be a single instance of any Unique character (which means there can be only Njal in the entire game).

excatly the point i'm trying to make- and you can do the same wiht the other powers i.e. Living lightening + 1 other, Stormcaller + 1 other etc. i cba to do the math but that will probably be where your 25 rune priests comes from, however 7 max (including njal) should be using Jaws.

As I said, in Apocalypse numerous restrictions are thrown out. That means you could field 10,000 pts of Rune Priests all exactly the same.

In a normal game, it would be 7 max (including Njal).

Right - Sorry - i'm with you now!

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

 Bhazakhain wrote:
So what happens if taken down by Eldar distort weapons?

Doesn't matter, to prevent a necron from getting back up (in normal games) you have to make his squad flee.

or replace the model (with a daemon spawn or trazyn the infinite)