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As I always love using marines allied with my IG I figured I would start a thread up for this as anyone else that loves having marines back up their IG would love to try some tactics out.

I do not have the marine codex as with all stuff gw related I prefer to try and figure lists out before wasting the money to try new stuff and realize It doesnt work (bad BA experience).

So Ive been reading through the forums and they are swamped with marine tacticas and lists.

Some thoughts on different allies:

Salamanders can have twinlinked flamers with their tactics and if vulkan is taken twinlinked meltas. Expensive but how about vulkan in a pod of 5 sternguard kitted out how you want and then 2 pods kitted out to benefit the twinlinked flamers and meltas. 2 pods on turn 1 and 3rd comes in hopefully second turn. This would give a good alpha strike while being backed up by IG shooting.

IH have a nice chapter master on a bike with the relic shield, TH, and the armor that gives 2+. Throw him in a bike squad and you have a mini deathstar that you could use to harass a flank of your opponents. Foot guard/gunline is usually spread out a great distance in their deployment so if your opponent is smart he can focus on 1 side and just go down the line killing everything. This unit would be used to push your opponent to one side and help choke them with IG fire and a powerful asault unit possibly in the rear.

Im not all to familiar with the rest of the armies at the time but any suggestion are welcome and probably helpful to other players, Thanks!

I was going to go for some Iron Hands allies because I thought "oh man wouldn't it be great if I could grab a MotF and repair my leman russes on the battlefield and have some tough scoring units, maybe even make some cool fluff about the blah blah blah" but this thread here->
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551386.page

Took a huge dump all over my plans. Wouldn't be any point in taking IH with IG anymore aside from the deathstar unit your talking about.

I'll probably end up going with templars now.

That would have been awesome to repair leman russes, but it seems the superior technology is to superior to repair the simple design of the ig russes lol.

Theres also the idea of instead of being on a bike use the beat stick ih chapter master in a pod then with some marines and then use some iron clads. Maybe swap it around and have ig as an ally and use them as a platoon to sit back and use supporting fire and hold home objectives while the dreads harass the enemy.

I originally wanted to try ih's with ig as they are a different chapter that i rarely see or have heard of but with most marines allying with guard the ig is usually blobed up in the back and the marines dont give much bonus other than the librarian in a gunline list.

For marine allies with guard, what you need to do is either A) bring them to counter a specific weakness in your lists or B) use them to bring more of what you already have. Option A is probably the best, as it adds versatility to the list, but B has its merits, and can use some good combos like a DP assault backed up by stormtroopers for even more backfield killy goodness, or a mech list with a couple of rhinos and a pred or vindi chucked in to add to armour saturation.

On the whole, though, you should be looking at countering the 3 main weaknesses of the IG codex on its own: Lack or durability, lack of mobility, and lack of CC prowess.

Lack of Durability: it is an unfortunate reality that guardsmen, particularly on foot, have massive problems with staying alive in the later parts of the game, and this is where the SM codex can help out. Taking 20-30 marines, some/most of which are scoring can boost the survivability of the army as a whole, and also because the enemy will have to divert considerably more firepower to remove them than some IS, even in cover. This gives you better objective-holding ability, and also helps in missions where kill points are in play. A good allied contingent here would be:

Iron Hands
Librarian, TDA, SS
2x 10 man tac squads (add weapons as appropriate)
TH/SS termies.

Gives you a good core of reliable troops, a pretty tough if expensive CC unit, and has great staying power.

Lack of mobility: Drop pods seem like the obvious answer here, but consider for a moment the humble Rhino. A DP gets you to the enemy and then does nothing, a Rhino can keep you moving (and therefore reacting and capturing) until the end of the game if you are careful with it. Combine this with the Raven Guard CT, and you can have the enemy board edge in rapid-fire range by turn one, or outlfank your allies for a nasty side attack. Sample list:
Raven Guard
Captain, JP, weapon of choice
2x 10-man tac squads, rhinos
ASM or Vanguard vets for some mobile CC if you want. If not, swap the captain for a libby and shove him in a platoon.

Lack of CC: This is something that is less essential, and probably better covered by the SW or DA codex (or chaos if you're willing to go non-imperium), but C:SM can still hold its own. in this case you want to keep troops to a minimum, maybe even just a scout squad, and then put all the points you want in Elites and Fast Attack, getting ASM and Vanguard/Termies (if the latter, get a LR DT) and maybe even a CC-tooled Command Squad, on bikes to keep up with the mounted and JP elements. Good list:
Captain, bike
Command, bikes, CC kit
TH/SS termies, LR
scouts
ASM, full squad, JP

Very interesting concepts, I never really thought about using termies.

In the first list is it possible to switch the librarian with that beefed up IH company master? That would be expensive but I would just drop the number of tacs.

The idea of the rhinos being able to transport marines around is pretty interesting.

You think the new grav weapons are worth a try or stick with meltas or plasma and a missile launcher, Ive never tried or played the new marines so im not sure how they are run or played.

Lack of Durability: Blob
Lack of CC: Who cares?
Lack of mobility: Don't we play with the one of the best AV12 Transport Flyer of the game?

6th is not about Flyers, it's about Monstrous Creatures (and I'm glad C:SM did not get one).

And MCs are the major IG problem.
In order to kill a riptide in one turn, you will need at least 2 units of Plasma-Mech-Vets and to come in the riptide 12".
So, 340 Pts to kill a Riptide.

Then come the mighty Bikes with Grav-gun, for 105pts, you have 1 Riptide dead.

Now, our new Best Buddies are easy to find: White scares the Monsters.

@HarryMason: I see your points but the truth is, with the current meta consisting almost entirely of armies with metric tons of AP5 small arms fire, blobs are all to easy to kill, especially with model-by-model cover, and changes to character killing CC blobs less useful. 30-man squad going up against anything that can bring a AP5 weapons en mass (tactical marines, necron warriors, fire warriors) will be lucky to survive past T4, and that's not factoring in things like heldrakes, flamer drop pods, cheaper whirlwinds ect. Lack of CC will become an issue when orks and nids get updated, you can bet they are going to get compensated for the changes to assault in 6th with more CC prowess. Vendettas are mobile, but can only really assist from T3 onwards, whereas if you have 3 pods, you can get up to 20 marines hitting valuable targets or sweeping objectives from T1.

Your idea for the WS grav-bikes is sound, and a great counter to Riptides, Wraithknights and big nids, but probably far too situational for a TAC list, as many armies will just lauggh in the face of Grav, like guard, orks, horde nids and demons, and even necrons to a certain extent.

@tankboy145: The IH captain.CM can fit in most lists if you have the points, as he is tough enough to survive without an escort, I just threw the libby in for cheap ASTKNF on a blob and to satisfy the FOC.

Rhinos are great if you bring a few, even better when combined with IG mech.

I'm sceptical at best about Grav, as most targets apart from the big beasties you'll be wounding on 2s with plasma anyway, but potentially at longer range, and on the whole, where guard need to specialise, SM need the opposite, to focus on every squad being able to handle as many target profiles a possible. This is even more important as allies with the limited FOC. Plasma beats grav for rhinos and footsloggers, melta beats grav for DP troops. ML are good for a general purpose weapon, but on the whole, LC, PC or MM are better choices, just make sure it synergises with the special weapon.

I can see some potential with using BT 5 man spec/heavy squads with IG. You could also take an Emperors Champion with a Crusader squad, or maybe Helbrect.

Ideas for BT/IG?

Not much has changed in the land of Marine/Guard armies. Libby Blobs and Vendettas are still where it's at.

Since the standard Libby can't take prescience, what do you use it for on your Blobs? Maybe a Chaplain or Chapter Master would be a better choice.

The libby is mostly there for ASTKNF (great on blobs, means you don't need to worry about Commissars executing characters as you auto-rally next turn and can't be SA) and possibly something from Biomancy or Telepathy. Also, you need a HQ, and chaplains don't work well with IG and Chapter Masters are too expensive to really bring as allies, as you are probably going to have to give them some kind of expensive bodyguard, as IG do not share the same role.

Now one thought I Have is what about 2 tac squads in a pod and a sternguard squad in another pod. I mention this as turn 1 2 pods can come in rather than just 1. Im not sure if there would be any other better options for a pod list, maybe if cheaper throw an Iron clad dread in the list?

The HQ would probably be someone to add to a blob I believe.

Tigurius is pretty brutal attached to a good ole blob. He can force pretty much any power you need for that particular game (Invisibility, 4+ invul, Perfect Timing, Overwatch at full BS).

Edit- or Gate of Infinity for some real kooky shenanigans!

I really like the look of grav, especially used with allied bikers for an IG force. Grav is something that IG doesn't have anything of, or really much of anything to properly fill that role outside of ABG Vanquishers. Grav weaponry does lose out in certain situations, but they're still effective against any vehicles, and your bikes have bolters for non-heavy infantry.

Grav weapon bikes seem to me like they fill all of what guard is lacking: fast (scoring) units, effective counterplay versus most monstrous creatures, and units that are themselves pretty good in melee.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551286.page Finally, this thread had good discussion on the usage of grav weaponry. Time will tell whether it stands the test, but I definitely think they're worth a shot trying out.

For the DP idea, that sounds good, as you combine the mobility of a good number of marines with the massive killyness of the sternguard. Load them up for maximum punch on the drop and you're good to go. As for HQ, consider a Master Of The Forge, as that can give you a conversion beamer (nice extra firepower for a non-moving blob), ASTKNF, and also allows you am Ironclad in Heavy support, so you can take one along with the sternguard.

Does the MotF give ATSKNF to a guardsman blob?

Also... I wonder if it would be worth taking grimaldus and his servitors for that invuln save on the blob... thoughts?

Idk about points but...
IF
Lib with Telepathy or Telekinesis, maybe Biomancy
Sternguard with combi-weapons based on opponents, possibly in DP
2 squads Tac Marines (1 either flank) maybe with Rhinos
Thunderfire Cannon

Lots of TL bolters to make use of CT. put the Libby in the SGs and if you get Gate then all the better, make sure he has a bolt weapon. TFC can hide away in the IG tanks and bomb out. The Tacs on the flanks will act as deterrents, the Rhinos would allow for obj grabbing in foot guard, especially if you aren't putting units in Vendettas

 ultimentra wrote:
Since the standard Libby can't take prescience, what do you use it for on your Blobs? Maybe a Chaplain or Chapter Master would be a better choice.

Why? Both choices are for assault squads, which Infantry Platoons are not. The Libby can give them boosts from Telepathy or Biomancy. The Libby is also the cheapest means of giving the squad ATSKNF.

 Paradigm wrote:
@HarryMason: I see your points but the truth is, with the current meta consisting almost entirely of armies with metric tons of AP5 small arms fire, blobs are all to easy to kill, especially with model-by-model cover, and changes to character killing CC blobs less useful. 30-man squad going up against anything that can bring a AP5 weapons en mass (tactical marines, necron warriors, fire warriors) will be lucky to survive past T4, and that's not factoring in things like heldrakes, flamer drop pods, cheaper whirlwinds ect. Lack of CC will become an issue when orks and nids get updated, you can bet they are going to get compensated for the changes to assault in 6th with more CC prowess. Vendettas are mobile, but can only really assist from T3 onwards, whereas if you have 3 pods, you can get up to 20 marines hitting valuable targets or sweeping objectives from T1.

Your idea for the WS grav-bikes is sound, and a great counter to Riptides, Wraithknights and big nids, but probably far too situational for a TAC list, as many armies will just lauggh in the face of Grav, like guard, orks, horde nids and demons, and even necrons to a certain extent.

If blob are that easy to kill, please explain me why most Top Tournament Necron players take an Helldrake and a full blob of cultists as allies?

At more than 12", even in open ground, 50W will need 23 marines during 5 turn to be killed. (322 points)
On the opposite side, a full blob will be able to fire 95 lasgun (FRFSRF) every turn, to kill 26 Marines. (280 pts, including the PCS)

On all the game, I bring a blob, I lost it only once. (Azrael died on Jaw, blob lost fearless and run away from the table...)

You are advocating to take Marines to sweep objectives from T1. Why do you need to take objective from T1, when you can kill opponent units and then take the objectives from T4?
Moreover, Meta is not full of AP5, it's full of AP3, how will you be able to keep an objective during 5 turn with 10 Marines?
To keep an objective, in the actual Meta, there is nothing better than a blob, especially with an ATSKNF leader.

And to take an objective at the end of the game, nothing better than some scoring bikes.

In CC, today, there are only Daemons, when Tyranid will arrive, I will think about it.
Now, Tyranid are just MCs with T6 & Svg3+, that you kill better with a salvo 3 gravgun at 18" than with a plasmagun at 12".

Gravgun is not situational, it's excellent at killing Wraithknight, Riptide, DreadKnight, in fact all MCs with svg3+ (it includes most Tyranids and Daemons)
Against AV13~14, you will be more than happy to have one instead of plasmagun.
And even against Marines, bellow 18", Grav-gun is better than plasma gun.

So maybe I would take a MoF to throw in a blob. A tac squad in a pod, a Iron Clad dread in a pod and a stern guard squad in a pod. With this I can kit some of the units out to have grav guns or combi grav weapons to target those big threats right off the bat.

The bikes do indeed seem like a good Idea.

While its dirty, if it works as I read it khan plus a bike techmarine give scout and hit and run and atsknf to 2 separate blobs, and a thunderfire tech marine plus bike tech marine can boost the save of terrain for the blobs. A lot of suggestions I've seen involve units of marines fighting alongside the guard, but with this set up the marines each are each actively buffing the guard units. Plus for troops you still get grav bikes that ignore dangerous terrain and can outflank, or you take 60 points of real cheap sniper scouts.

Scouting hit and run guard blobs are real, real good, and the marine on a bike base extends their charge by about 4 inches when needed.

I ran a 1500 point mech list today with a BT biker captain tooled for CC and a grav gun bike squad. It meshed with the mech elements perfectly, it could keep pace and if gave my IG and gave me one hell of a CC monster. Not to mention that captain took on a lord and a daemon prince by himself and walked away from both.

Can you post the details of your captain and bike squad? Like what upgrades you gave the captain? How did the BT CT work out for you in that game?

DevianID wrote:
While its dirty, if it works as I read it khan plus a bike techmarine give scout and hit and run and atsknf to 2 separate blobs, and a thunderfire tech marine plus bike tech marine can boost the save of terrain for the blobs. A lot of suggestions I've seen involve units of marines fighting alongside the guard, but with this set up the marines each are each actively buffing the guard units. Plus for troops you still get grav bikes that ignore dangerous terrain and can outflank, or you take 60 points of real cheap sniper scouts.

Scouting hit and run guard blobs are real, real good, and the marine on a bike base extends their charge by about 4 inches when needed.

The blobs themselves would get hit and run and scout? I didnt know they got it, I thought all the models in the unit had to have hit and run in order to perform it? I dont have my rule book on me.

The thunder fire does seem like it could give some good fire support.

Any suggestions on possibly using black templars as an ally? what chapter tactics do they use? I havent heard much from them.

HarryMason wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
@HarryMason: I see your points but the truth is, with the current meta consisting almost entirely of armies with metric tons of AP5 small arms fire, blobs are all to easy to kill, especially with model-by-model cover, and changes to character killing CC blobs less useful. 30-man squad going up against anything that can bring a AP5 weapons en mass (tactical marines, necron warriors, fire warriors) will be lucky to survive past T4, and that's not factoring in things like heldrakes, flamer drop pods, cheaper whirlwinds ect. Lack of CC will become an issue when orks and nids get updated, you can bet they are going to get compensated for the changes to assault in 6th with more CC prowess. Vendettas are mobile, but can only really assist from T3 onwards, whereas if you have 3 pods, you can get up to 20 marines hitting valuable targets or sweeping objectives from T1.

Your idea for the WS grav-bikes is sound, and a great counter to Riptides, Wraithknights and big nids, but probably far too situational for a TAC list, as many armies will just lauggh in the face of Grav, like guard, orks, horde nids and demons, and even necrons to a certain extent.

If blob are that easy to kill, please explain me why most Top Tournament Necron players take an Helldrake and a full blob of cultists as allies?

At more than 12", even in open ground, 50W will need 23 marines during 5 turn to be killed. (322 points)
On the opposite side, a full blob will be able to fire 95 lasgun (FRFSRF) every turn, to kill 26 Marines. (280 pts, including the PCS)

On all the game, I bring a blob, I lost it only once. (Azrael died on Jaw, blob lost fearless and run away from the table...)

You are advocating to take Marines to sweep objectives from T1. Why do you need to take objective from T1, when you can kill opponent units and then take the objectives from T4?
Moreover, Meta is not full of AP5, it's full of AP3, how will you be able to keep an objective during 5 turn with 10 Marines?
To keep an objective, in the actual Meta, there is nothing better than a blob, especially with an ATSKNF leader.

And to take an objective at the end of the game, nothing better than some scoring bikes.

In CC, today, there are only Daemons, when Tyranid will arrive, I will think about it.
Now, Tyranid are just MCs with T6 & Svg3+, that you kill better with a salvo 3 gravgun at 18" than with a plasmagun at 12".

Gravgun is not situational, it's excellent at killing Wraithknight, Riptide, DreadKnight, in fact all MCs with svg3+ (it includes most Tyranids and Daemons)
Against AV13~14, you will be more than happy to have one instead of plasmagun.
And even against Marines, bellow 18", Grav-gun is better than plasma gun.

Firstly, you've answered your own question: most necron armies take a full blob of cultists and a heldrake for the heldrake. The extra scoring troops are just gravy and to add some presence on the board T1 to prevent an auto-loss, and to maybe grab a single objective late-game while the enemy focuses on killing the more valuable targets.

50-man blobs may be durable, but they are just plain impractical. Your maths assumes everyone is alive and in range,no one has special or heavy weapons, they pass FRFSRF, and frankly, the chances of all of these things happening at once is minute. Also, you don't add in the cost of the required ASTKNF character, which is another 65 points minimum, or 200+ for the likes of Azreal.

I agree objectives are useless until turn 4, but what I am saying is that if the enemy is, for argument's sake, tau, and they have an objective in their backfield, then 20-30 marines fighting/holding it from T1 has a far greater chance of surviving than a platoon of guardsmen footslogging across the board, who will likely never even reach it without some expensive gimmick.

There is a lot of AP3 around, but it's all generally on specialist platforms. On the other hand, if you look at 4 of the most common troops in the meta: SM tac marines-AP5, Tau Fire Warriors- AP5, Necron Warriors- AP5, Eldar Guardians- AP5. Of those, only the eldar are as much of a threat to marines as guard.

Blobs are fine for keeping hold of an objective in the backfield, and I don't deny that, but when it comes to actually taking them, they are massively outclassed by marines, who beat them in terms of mobility, durability, force concentration and potentially firepower. Bikes or podding/rhino tacs, the point is they outclass guardsmen. Bikes also necessitate a biker captain, which runs twice the cost of a librarian, doesn't give you psychic defence/offence, and needs upgrades to be effective.

The thing is, the meta is not static, it is constantly changing. CC being weaker now is true, but when orks, nids, BA and DE (even possibly SW) get upgrades, I fully expect that to change. as there's no way those armies are going to be left without some kind of trick to make them better at reaching combat.

To be honest, I call killing MCs and having a tiny chance at immobilising a vehicle very situational, as there are a lot of armies where MCs are not present. Grav is better against marines if you stand still (or are relentless), but if you are moving (which marines should generally always be) then plasma is more effective. Grav has it's place (Bikes and centurions), but on the whole, plasma is better against a wide range of targets.

 ultimentra wrote:
Can you post the details of your captain and bike squad? Like what upgrades you gave the captain? How did the BT CT work out for you in that game?

I ran a captain with a thunder hammer, artificer armor, eternal shield and a thunder hammer. The bikes were 5 men with two grav guns and a veteran sergeant with a power sword and melta bombs. I was playing against CSM, so challenges were going to happen. The BT tactics gave me an edge because of the ability to reroll to hit with a thunder hamer.

On further reflection on the list, I had one too many veteran squads (was over by 95 point. How the hell do I miss that?) so I did not really "win", but the bikes did preform excellently in there intended roll: Being a spearhead for the rest of the force.