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2019/12/05 18:22:11
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: Well, as I mentioned above, it's optimal to either bring mostly infantry or mostly mechanized. If you're bringing Nobz and Buggies, you've just given your opponent optimal targets for all of their guns. So, I'm assuming that if you want to field Grots and Nobz, you're running a primarily infantry list, in which case you'll probably want Boyz AND Grotz. And in comparison to either of those units, Nobz just don't measure up well. Damage 2
with AP is incredibly prevalent, so they die just as quickly as Boyz, but at twice the cost. And in damage output, they don't measure up either (unless you charge them into some light vehicles and give them Big Choppas). They really needed like a 2-3 pt drop to be worth fielding over Boyz.
If my troops slots are filled, then the point difference is now 70 per unit. That's massive if the normal recommended # of boys is 90 (210 points saved).
Offensively, Nobs are fine, because it's a lot easier to get all of them into combat on the charge. 5 str 5 attacks per model, that doesn't degrade if I lose part of the unit (-1 attacks under 20 boys). If you can literally get every boy you buy into combat, they are better, but this isn't likely to happen off of Da Jump. I think you're lucky to get 15 boys in on the charge (45 or 60 attacks w/ 1 less strength vs 50 w/ +1 strength).
I just scratch my head paying 630 (or 645 w/ Big Choppa) for boys.
2019/12/05 18:30:35
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Going double-Choppa Nobz means you aren't taking any ranged weapons. While this is a fine option, that DOES mean that if you fail your charge, your Nobz did nothing except to die.
10 Nobz with DC are 50 attacks. Alternatively, if I get 1 Boss Nob and 15 Boyz into CC, they also get 50 attacks. Those 10 Nobz will cost ya 140 pts, while 20 Boyz will also cost ya 140 pts. And they'll still have Sluggas, so atleast SOME ranged ability.
Nobz certainly have a place in your army, but it isn't as a Boyz replacement.
2019/12/05 18:30:40
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
On Boyz vs Grots it really depends on which list archetype you want to go for. Before the Marine meta there were 2 primary list archetypes - Shooty Orks and Board Controlly Orks.
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
2019/12/05 18:36:33
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Nobz? Ranged capability? You mean flash gitz right?
All regular nobz have access to are kombi shootas. Wtf would you want to double the price of the nob for 2 S4 shots and a skorcha or rokkit shot for?
Nobz are dedicated melee. They are hot garbage if you dare give them any gun options. Not a single bit of their wargear caters to shooting in a meaningful way because kombi weapons are overpriced gak and they cant take dual-kustomshootas unless you play Legacy. All of the perks they are given are melee focused. 5 S5 attacks for 13pts on a T4, 2W, 4+ save is pretty dang good. There is 0 reason to ever give them a gun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/05 18:38:46
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/12/05 18:39:59
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Well, Sluggas are still free, if you're willing to give up 1 attack per Nob for some shooting. I generally do, because I'd rather not fail the (admittedly reliable) charge roll and have my Nobz gunned down without having so much as scratched the enemy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/05 18:40:14
2019/12/05 18:40:25
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
An Actual Englishman wrote: On Boyz vs Grots it really depends on which list archetype you want to go for. Before the Marine meta there were 2 primary list archetypes - Shooty Orks and Board Controlly Orks.
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
So for my Mad Max/Mechanized list I am hearing... take Grots not boyz? I am currently taking a 2-3 shoota boy squads in a truck and it's been a mixed bag. They pump a lot of shots out but I don't think it's worth the points, particularly with the trukk adding so much for little value. The buggies on the otherhand have performed well, despite being overcosted. CA 2019 will just make that better I suppose.
My new concept (as well as being fluffy imo) and no boyz, just grots. 3-4 Smasha gunz with a SAG or SSAG from a mek or two for a barebones batallion for some CP. I might even do two.
The rest will be an outrider detachement of buggies, tankbustas in a Wagon or Trukk if I take a Bonebreakah. No bikes, and a Wazbom Blastajet. Any infantry units will get rocked by the buggies so my main concern is having anti-tank, hence the tankbustas + smasha guns and wazbom.
On the fluffy side, I view it as the Meks and Grots tooling up all the vehicles in the deployment zone before everyone is off to the races, but they're stinky little grots so they don't get to ride along so they get left behind with the Meks to arm the cannons.
2019/12/05 18:47:59
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: Going double-Choppa Nobz means you aren't taking any ranged weapons. While this is a fine option, that DOES mean that if you fail your charge, your Nobz did nothing except to die.
10 Nobz with DC are 50 attacks. Alternatively, if I get 1 Boss Nob and 15 Boyz into CC, they also get 50 attacks. Those 10 Nobz will cost ya 140 pts, while 20 Boyz will also cost ya 140 pts. And they'll still have Sluggas, so atleast SOME ranged ability.
Nobz certainly have a place in your army, but it isn't as a Boyz replacement.
Charging is pretty consistent with Evil Suns -- honestly, a few slugga shots isn't going to make the unit worth it if they fail the charge no matter what (20 shots, around 7 hits...)
I think you can expose a 30 man squad more because 2D weapons are the same to them -- but I think you could work around some of the issues you've brought up with Nobs. Maybe not 3 squads of Nobs, but 1-2 might work okay.
I could see a strategy, even with a more mechanized list, where you hide / hold back your nobs in Tellyporta or on your backline, then use the Weirdboy to throw them into an appropriate area. As long as you can hide them from shooting until then, they might be a cheaper solution to the same problem.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
On Boyz vs Grots it really depends on which list archetype you want to go for. Before the Marine meta there were 2 primary list archetypes - Shooty Orks and Board Controlly Orks.
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
That Aussie dude I think in one of his more recent tournaments took a 360+ model list. I believe it was 360 grots plus his other stuff. I think he did really well in that local tournament. Don't have the list exactly, just heard him mention it somewhere.
I think I lean more on the shooty / elite side of the ork archetypes. Primaris sucks for the boys. I think they are fine in most other matchups, though.
2019/12/05 19:01:59
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
its a slugga, if anything its going to make that charge harder.
10 slugga shots is what ~4 hits? S4, so not wounding reliably, no AP so full save allowed (and probably cover) so if it even does kill a model theyre going to remove it from the front and make that charge slightly harder.
Sluggas are terrible, i usually opt to not even shoot them unless i wasnt intending to charge anyway or i am RIGHT in their face in the first place.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/12/05 19:17:31
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Vineheart01 wrote: its a slugga, if anything its going to make that charge harder.
10 slugga shots is what ~4 hits? S4, so not wounding reliably, no AP so full save allowed (and probably cover) so if it even does kill a model theyre going to remove it from the front and make that charge slightly harder.
Sluggas are terrible, i usually opt to not even shoot them unless i wasnt intending to charge anyway or i am RIGHT in their face in the first place.
Honestly, wouldn’t shoota boys be better as a backup plan if we’re really worried? 2-3 attacks each on the charge is still fine and now you can pour like 58 shots into second unit as you charge.
2019/12/05 19:19:57
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
They are. And, as a bonus, you can target a unit that you're not charging, because the range isn't awful.
I'll admit that Sluggas aren't ideal, but I'd still rather have them than not. Not like Nobz are really gonna have any issues with the number of attacks they have anyway.
2019/12/05 19:34:13
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
With the release of Legends and Chapter Approved 2019, is the index officially dead?
Legends specifically gives the Big Bomm a price of 6 points, which would be fine but this is only enumerated in legends
Does Legends supercede the Index flowchart GW put out on FB?
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2019/12/05 19:39:28
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Btw, I think going choppa nobz is useless, we have enough army for dealing with hordes and map control.
What's really being asked isn't whether Nobs are useful for hordes above and beyond taking Slugga / Shoota boys.
The question is: Can you take 10 Nobs instead of 30 boys, and save 40 or 70 points. Gaining 120-210 points in a 2000 point list would *massive* if they can fulfill the same role.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: They are. And, as a bonus, you can target a unit that you're not charging, because the range isn't awful.
I'll admit that Sluggas aren't ideal, but I'd still rather have them than not. Not like Nobz are really gonna have any issues with the number of attacks they have anyway.
I'm more bullish on Shoota boys to be honest, but I like being able to both shoot and charge.
But you typically see almost 100% slugga boys.
The typical style tournament list I am betting is going to need to change. If you look at the 40k stats, Orks are not doing as well since marines came out...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/05 19:44:19
2019/12/05 20:05:05
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So for my Mad Max/Mechanized list I am hearing... take Grots not boyz? I am currently taking a 2-3 shoota boy squads in a truck and it's been a mixed bag. They pump a lot of shots out but I don't think it's worth the points, particularly with the trukk adding so much for little value. The buggies on the otherhand have performed well, despite being overcosted. CA 2019 will just make that better I suppose.
My new concept (as well as being fluffy imo) and no boyz, just grots. 3-4 Smasha gunz with a SAG or SSAG from a mek or two for a barebones batallion for some CP. I might even do two.
The rest will be an outrider detachement of buggies, tankbustas in a Wagon or Trukk if I take a Bonebreakah. No bikes, and a Wazbom Blastajet. Any infantry units will get rocked by the buggies so my main concern is having anti-tank, hence the tankbustas + smasha guns and wazbom.
On the fluffy side, I view it as the Meks and Grots tooling up all the vehicles in the deployment zone before everyone is off to the races, but they're stinky little grots so they don't get to ride along so they get left behind with the Meks to arm the cannons.
I tended to fill my battalions with 70 Boyz in one (30+30+10) and the rest were Grots (10+10+10 x 2). I Jumped 40 Boyz turn 1 and sometimes held the second squad of Boyz in reserve, sometimes Jumped them depending on how I felt with my opponent. I used to run 10 Bikes only, and for every Bike I removed the list improved in efficiency. The Boyz and Bikes were the anti chaff/horde. My anti-vehicle were SSAG, Shockjump Dragster, Scrapjet, Wazzbom and a Bikerboss with Killa Klaw.
It wasn't a good list, but I much preferred it to running hordes and I can't stand the idea of Orks using artillery.
E - Guys, on Mech Orks I can tell you that Nobz in Trukks are not the answer. We have tried them before and neither improved with CA. They are too easy to kill and their damage output is too low, even with BC.
Trukks are to be filled with Tankbustas.
Battlewagons are useful.
Flash Gits improved.
Meganobz might be worth considering now.
Dreads need testing but are potentially a decent alpha/beta strike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/05 20:08:52
2019/12/05 20:08:47
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Nobz definitely arent technically a good choice theyre more "i want to use them" sort of thing, since they still work they just work in ways orks dont really need help in.
Orks have a lot of that right now.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/12/05 20:33:11
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
It wasn't a good list, but I much preferred it to running hordes and I can't stand the idea of Orks using artillery.
E - Guys, on Mech Orks I can tell you that Nobz in Trukks are not the answer. We have tried them before and neither improved with CA. They are too easy to kill and their damage output is too low, even with BC.
Trukks are to be filled with Tankbustas.
Battlewagons are useful.
Flash Gits improved.
Meganobz might be worth considering now.
Dreads need testing but are potentially a decent alpha/beta strike.
Battlewagons and MANz got zero improvements in CA, why would you say they are useful now when they got basically 0 play before? ( I love MANz, but I wish they had dropped a bit via PK reductions...)
2019/12/05 20:35:18
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
MANz are 3W models. 3W models are a completely different mindset.
The main weapon that threatens 2W troopers only do 2 damage, its not very common for flat3 damage that isnt trying to take out a tank instead of manz.
Thats why Intercessors going to 3W for some fething reason was such a big deal.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/12/05 21:00:27
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
It's also important to note that MANz have a 2+ to Marine 3+. Might seem like a small difference, but against -1 AP, that's a 1/3 chance to take damage versus a 50% chance. Or, in essence, if it would take 2 shots to take out a 2W Marine, it would take 6 of the same attacks to do the same to a MAN.
2019/12/05 21:05:12
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
And on top of that, in general, MANz will be in cover so they STILL have a 2+
This is why they are objective campers. It takes some serious firepower to get them off something that has cover.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/12/05 21:28:50
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
tulun wrote: Battlewagons and MANz got zero improvements in CA, why would you say they are useful now when they got basically 0 play before? ( I love MANz, but I wish they had dropped a bit via PK reductions...)
Good question. MANZ did see play, but it was rare for sure.
The reason I think they might have play now is because of the new meta. I think they'll prove more troublesome to Marines both in terms of their damage output and their durability. I agree they could've done with a PK drop but they're an interesting unit right now, I think. Low AP attacks, even in high volume, just won't cut it I think.
E - as Vineheart and Flanderz said above, they're 3W which is a big deal in the current meta.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/05 21:30:35
2019/12/05 21:51:37
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Vineheart01 wrote: MANz are 3W models. 3W models are a completely different mindset.
The main weapon that threatens 2W troopers only do 2 damage, its not very common for flat3 damage that isnt trying to take out a tank instead of manz.
Thats why Intercessors going to 3W for some fething reason was such a big deal.
tulun wrote: Battlewagons and MANz got zero improvements in CA, why would you say they are useful now when they got basically 0 play before? ( I love MANz, but I wish they had dropped a bit via PK reductions...)
Good question. MANZ did see play, but it was rare for sure.
The reason I think they might have play now is because of the new meta. I think they'll prove more troublesome to Marines both in terms of their damage output and their durability. I agree they could've done with a PK drop but they're an interesting unit right now, I think. Low AP attacks, even in high volume, just won't cut it I think.
E - as Vineheart and Flanderz said above, they're 3W which is a big deal in the current meta.
I like em. I think they can do work. Especially if we start fielding walls of vehicles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/05 21:56:56
2019/12/05 22:13:40
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Dc nobz 140 points
Vs guardsmen 11 DM (dead models) ROI (return of investment) 35%
Vs Marines 5 DM ROI 54%
Vs Primaris 2 DM ROI 31%
BC Nobz 190 points
Vs guardsmen 15 DM ROI 31%
Vs Marines DM 7 ROI 55%
Vs Primaris DM 6 ROI 69%
So the winner vs Primaris is clearly BC Nobz, problem is that when you add the trukk the same unit ROI drops to 51%, so you need to fight twice at least to get you points back. At the same time you get flexibility and the possibility to go 3+ for 1 CP with loot it.
Now 30 BM shoota boyz, 210 points
Vs guardsmen 12 DM 23% ROI
Vs Marines 4 DM 28% ROI
Vs Primaris 2 DM 22% ROI
BUT, if you make it into combat you gotta add
Vs guard 17 DM 32% ROI
Vs Marines 6DM 42% ROI
Vs Primaris 3 DM 31% ROI
What this tells us?
Well DC Nobz are shiet.
BC Nobz are best at killing primaris , are 32% more resilient to AP 0, 17% to AP 1 and worthless at AP2 D2. Also having them in a trukk is not bad at all.
Boyz will be boyz vs cheap chaff and OG Marines , but they can mob up, be 10 bodies more and green tide.
Now those are facts, make your pick
2019/12/05 23:13:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I add the math for 10 meganobz since it took me forever to write that post and now you dirty dogs are getting all slobby over MANZ
350 points, 30 W 2+ in CC unbuffed
Vs guards 12DM 13% ROI
Vs Marines 10DM 43% ROI
Vs primaris 10DM 63% ROI
Which steal the price vs Primaris by far, they have just as many body as the Nobz unit , same W are 30 boyz and can be buffed by a banner or warpath.
Shame I just bought 18 Nobz and 4MANZ for like 30€. Should had done the opposite...
Well since I can't get enough of those orks, I believe I Just got a new list
I feel like you won't get a lot of mileage out of the Freebooter Kultur in that list. If suggest swapping Badrukk with the BM SAG, and the Gitz with the Manz, and making a Deathskullz Battalion instead. That way you got Ob Sec on your SAG and MANz, an emergency 6++, and some rerolls to play with for them as well.
Unless you go full Freebooters, I feel like the already kinda mediocre Kultur falls flat. So putting the Gitz and Badrukk over there with the TBs is pretty much the same as putting them in their own Kultur.
2019/12/06 00:04:58
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Exactly the kind of list i've been brewing -- I'd have a couple suggestions for you.
1) Try to put your 3rd SAG into DS. It's *so* much better there. Re-roll damage is too clutch.
2) I'm not sure 30 grots is enough to keep your gits alive. It's definitely not worth going freebootas. Take a trukk instead, tellyport them into position, hide them and da Jump, or some combination of the above.
3) I don't think Bad Moons is the right kultur for MANz. Buffing their shooting is probably not really worth it. Evil Suns extends their threat range of their guns and assaults, or Deathskullz provides Obsec. Invul save probably won't do anything, there isn't much AP-5 in the game.
Is this with the Gitz discount? Or do you have another X number of points to squeeze?
Dc nobz 140 points
Vs guardsmen 11 DM (dead models) ROI (return of investment) 35%
Vs Marines 5 DM ROI 54%
Vs Primaris 2 DM ROI 31%
BC Nobz 190 points
Vs guardsmen 15 DM ROI 31%
Vs Marines DM 7 ROI 55%
Vs Primaris DM 6 ROI 69%
So the winner vs Primaris is clearly BC Nobz, problem is that when you add the trukk the same unit ROI drops to 51%, so you need to fight twice at least to get you points back. At the same time you get flexibility and the possibility to go 3+ for 1 CP with loot it.
Now 30 BM shoota boyz, 210 points
Vs guardsmen 12 DM 23% ROI
Vs Marines 4 DM 28% ROI
Vs Primaris 2 DM 22% ROI
BUT, if you make it into combat you gotta add
Vs guard 17 DM 32% ROI
Vs Marines 6DM 42% ROI
Vs Primaris 3 DM 31% ROI
What this tells us?
Well DC Nobz are shiet.
BC Nobz are best at killing primaris , are 32% more resilient to AP 0, 17% to AP 1 and worthless at AP2 D2. Also having them in a trukk is not bad at all.
Boyz will be boyz vs cheap chaff and OG Marines , but they can mob up, be 10 bodies more and green tide.
Now those are facts, make your pick
I'll take some DC Nobz and let you guys know how they do as a rep for 30 sluggas. I am still in the camp they are undervalued, especially with some planning and strategy. And I get to save 70 points... That's another buggy or 2 smasha guns, an SAG, a weirdboy, a painboy...
I'll still probably take a 30 man Shoota Boy squad if I want a core of Boys. Spending ~350 on boys/Nobs seems like an ok investment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/06 00:10:26
2019/12/06 01:34:12
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
My thought behind it is that you have already 3 other scary big unit to take care off and Gitz without badrukk and grot shield suffer a lot.
The extra 60 points is before ca drop, so it should be 2k on the nose.
At best you could switch badrukk for a warboss, go ES with the MANZ and the gitz, but you would leave them in the open with no real protection.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
