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Okay let me start off by saying I don't want a debate as to whether or not 6th edition killed close combat etc etc. There is already several threads about that.

What I'm interested in is peoples thoughts on the quickest way into close combat. I want to run a Black Templars army and wouldn't mind trying to make it as close combat oriented as possible. I have two theories as to how you could work this.

1. Use a Land Raider. The Land Raider is durable at 14 all around armor and 4 HP's plus with the current meta I think a lot of things will have trouble dealing with Land Raiders since everything is specced out to take on flyers, Tau, and Eldar who's armor maxes out at AV 12 with the exception of Tau but no one uses Hammerheads anyway and Skyrays are rare. My argument for Land Raiders is simply that the last two Tau players I went up against used mostly High Yield Missile Pods and with those it is impossible to even scratch armor 14.

2. Use a Stormraven. The Stormraven is fast, so I figure turn two I fly on 36 and try and jink most of the shots and then turn three I drop into hover mode and let loose the cargo. More than likely the cargo would be TT/SS Terminators since they stand the best chance of surviving the occasional getting shot down. On top of that I would escort the Stormraven with the Stormtalon and between the two of them I could get some anti-air into the deal. I would obviously probably ally in Tigurius just to have the rerolls to reserves.

So what do you guys think? Do you have any further suggestions as to fast and survivable ways to make it into close combat?

Fastest way bar none is to drop zaggstruck and assault out of reserve

You've got the basic idea though. You may wanna look at the land raider spartan if you like crusader squads; allowing that your group is okay with forge-world of course. It carries 25 dudes

Of the two, I think the LR (Crusader) is a better option, as you deploy 12", move 12" and flat-out 6" first turn, move 6", disembark 6" and charge 2d6 on turn 2. Assuming an average charge range of 7", the rear board ende is in charge range T2, and the LRC is nice for close-range fire support as well with the AC and Hurricane bolters, giving almost the fire of a Tac squad. They are even better if you add an MM, as then you can use that (and the AC) to pop a transport, and then POTMS Hurricane bolter the disembarked occupants, or if the MM is likely to kill the trasnport alone, then POTMS that and use the AC/hurris to damage the occupants. Also, remember that you can charge one target with the crusaders/termies (I'd personally take the former) and shoot another if you think the target you are charging will die anyway.

The SR is less useful as you're getting a T3 charge at earliest, and losing a turn of shooting, and it is far more vulnerable in the turn you charge.

Other options include things like mass combat DS (as in, 2-3 ASM squads with JP, crusaders in pods, termies, Ironclads in pods) so that the enemy can't kill them all before you charge. The great thing is that, even damages, ASM and the like can still make a mess of most non-dedicated CC units. With, say, 3 crusader squads in pods (all initiates with BP/CCW, hidden PF and LC on the sword brother) and an Ironclad in a pod as the first wave, and 3 ASM squads in pods and some TH/SS termies as the second wave, you can get 60+ marines in the enemy backfield by turn 2 if you're lucky with reserves. This is kind of an all-or-nothing approach, unless you take some long-range support from LC devs you're relying on meltas to pop vehicles on the drop, but would be fun to say the least.

Just a note that you cant use PotMS to mow down the infantry in a transport after you pop it with the MM. All guns must fire at the same time. You can pop the transport then mow he guys down with a different unit though.

Landraider and storm raven are good options. TH/SS in raven preferred in case you boom.

Also large crusader squads tend to make it across the field. As does hiding jump troops behind land raiders. Also use the terrain to help with making it across!

As already pointed out, the LR seems to be the better option since its rather resilient can implement a T2 charge.
A Stormraven is rather vulnerable if it goes into hoover mode. The only unit worth transporting (and able to survive when the flyer crashes) are TH/SS Termies.

LR is always the best assault transport. It's a shame that the CSM only holds 10 marines or 5 termis.

If you want to get into combat without buying 200+pt transports then White Scars bikes with Kor'sarrow Khan are tough and can be in combat by turn two. For Black Templers however a large drop pod assault could work, its cheap enough to concentrate on more infantry and you will be in assault turn two with half of them. The guys you lose from close range fire may have been swapped for a land raider anyway. Also after they are locked in combat with your remaining guys you can bring down your more valuable combat elites who will have to deal with much less firepower and can finish them off in combat turn three.

Another viable options seems to be RG Assault Marines with jump packs. These guys are ridiculously fast.

Storm ravens are also vulnerable to interceptor fire the turn they arrive.

Thanks guys these are all some great tips!

juraigamer said: Also large crusader squads tend to make it across the field. As does hiding jump troops behind land raiders. Also use the terrain to help with making it across!

I've considered this but I'm not sure how survivable the Crusader squads would be especially with the Neophytes only having 4+ armor. I might try it out in a game just to get an idea but the transports also provide some much needed firepower that I don't think I want to give up.

Agamenmon said: If you want to get into combat without buying 200+pt transports then White Scars bikes with Kor'sarrow Khan are tough and can be in combat by turn two. For Black Templers however a large drop pod assault could work, its cheap enough to concentrate on more infantry and you will be in assault turn two with half of them. The guys you lose from close range fire may have been swapped for a land raider anyway. Also after they are locked in combat with your remaining guys you can bring down your more valuable combat elites who will have to deal with much less firepower and can finish them off in combat turn three.

I'm trying to avoid the White Scars because I know everybody will be playing it and I've never liked bikes, I don't know why I just don't like the idea of bikes in the 41st millennium.

Does a drop pod assault work though? My biggest issue with the drop pod assault is that my army will come in piecemeal and I will have to get very close to the enemy in order to be able to assault them next turn. Not to mention I'm going to be a sitting duck for at least a turn and close enough to some of the deadlier Tau weaponry like Fusion Blasters and Plasma Rifles. Any ideas on what squads to take in a Drop Pod to make them more survivable? At least with the Land Raider it provides full coverage and I can be far enough away from the Fusion Blasters and Plasma Rifles until I'm ready to make my assault.

Trust me, if your enemy is going it ignore your armor saves, let them ignore 4+ saves before 3+ saves. Otherwise that 4+ will last long enough.

I tend to run 2-3 15 man Crusader Squads (10 Initiates 5 Neophytes) with a Chaplain in 1 squad, 2 power fists/pistols, Pistols and CCW on everyone else and just run up the board for my stabby troops. I also love putting TH/SS termies in a Storm Raven to help clean up in the mid game. LRCs would be the quickest way to put your dudes in combat, but they're very expensive and I'd rather take some AA or AT with those points.

I always equip my drop pod units to be shooty. Once they drop they do not charge allowing the other player to set up a counter to your charge, or charge you.

I use drop pods to bring in heavy weapons.

It takes major cojones to stick a valuable assault squad in a valuable and expensive gunship that is already a primary target. I would never use a Stormraven as anything other than an empty gunship or maybe with 5 scouts inside.

Land Raider IMO is the best if you have points for it and a lot of Tau/Eldar/Daemon lists only have a few outs to AV14. Scout, outflanking, infiltrate, and drop pods also work if you have enough terrain to hide behind.

From my similar experience with my Khorne Berserkers, you either want a Land Raider, or a large enough squad that can take some losses on the way to assault, but still be effective when they get there.

Option 1 but with a non-codex Land raider

Enter the Spartan assault tank. ~300 points of pure av 14 goodness, holding 25 infantry (loyalist version is immune to Melta) and some extra dakka. Drive this badboy up and dump your 20 man crusader squad right into combat.

I'm a Salamanders player, and a big proponent of the Land Raider Crusader. Harboring a vicious band of terminators, (and armed with extra armor) it's a great way to deliver units into melee. I've only had it destroyed twice this edition, both times to scarabs.

Just wanna point out land raider is a heavy vehicle, so I believe 6" is max in movement and no flat out allowed...

 wuestenfux wrote:
.A Stormraven is rather vulnerable if it goes into hoover mode.

I didn't know Stormravens could be vacuum-cleaners too!

PotionsN'Balms wrote:
Just wanna point out land raider is a heavy vehicle, so I believe 6" is max in movement and no flat out allowed...

Land Raiders don't have the Heavy rule.

How about scout squads with CC/BP in land speeder storms? They can even get a turn 1 charge if you go second. With helbrach DP assaulting in to the center of it they can do some decent damage. Just something I am toying with though.

What about a CSM Land Raider with Dirge Casters? You get the protection of the tank and no Overwatch to deal with.

If I were your would go with the land raider. You can take it as a dedicated transport for your crusaders

Unlike the storm chicken, your unit does not lose 5/6 of the models inside if the vehicle explodes

BIKES BIKES AND MORE BIKES!

24" move first turn,
assault turn 2
prOFIT!

barring that, I have tried the 3 x SR's... it dont work so hot, at BEST you get t3 assault,

LR's are far better for getting stuf finto assault

Raven Guard Tech Marine attached to an assault squad.
The tech marine gets stealthy and scout, both of which pass on to the squad.
This gives you the 6" pregame scout move, along with stealthy for turn 1.
First turn, detach the tech marine, leaving him behind, and move 12", then assault with re-rolling the charge distance. You should be able to hit an opponent turn 1 if you go 2nd, turn 2 if you go first.
Tech Marines also bolster the defenses of your shooty elements, and put a 2+ armor save on point if your opponent goes first.

raven guard scout bomber tecniques

get as many cc scouts as possible infiltrate them into/near cover and profit from stealth cover then attack.

alternative, land speeder stroms are open topped making them assault vehicles, plus its far faster than land raider going 30 inches flat out, if spammed it could tie up shooters/heavy weaps, while your real heavy work advances unimpeded, i use this trick to kill devastators

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Raven Guard Tech Marine attached to an assault squad.
The tech marine gets stealthy and scout, both of which pass on to the squad.
This gives you the 6" pregame scout move, along with stealthy for turn 1.
First turn, detach the tech marine, leaving him behind, and move 12", then assault with re-rolling the charge distance. You should be able to hit an opponent turn 1 if you go 2nd, turn 2 if you go first.
Tech Marines also bolster the defenses of your shooty elements, and put a 2+ armor save on point if your opponent goes first.

This doesn't work. The rule is very clear. I will post it in both threads you proposed this so people are not confused.

Note
that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky
special rules do not benefit from either rule.

While I neither agree nor disagree with that interpretation of the tactics (that even if they gain it from an outside source, their own inherent restriction negates it) I will point out that one could argue that Shrike would be unable to give Stealth to himself or his unit of jump packers by that logic, though maybe since it's Shrike's Stealth and not the Raven Guard chapter tactic's Stealth it works?

Seems very poorly written to me, much like FW's new Lucius pod.

your right as shrike has the stealth usr then he would give it to any attached squad. I think this is well written as they didn't want centurions and jump infantry getting scout. (unless your white scars then it's fine apparently for centurions in a land raider)