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so why can you not give tac squads close combat weapons like a combat blade or chainsword, but Chaos marines can get them and still cost less? I understand tacs get ATSKNF but you can make chaos marines fearless fairly cheap and give them even more goodies. is ATSKNF that good? I am fairly new to the game itself but after reading a lot of books I find it strange that tacs don't any CC weapons.

ATSKNF really is that good. Besides the great Codex Astartes tells all the loyalist marines not to carry ccw with their bolters. That is for the assault squads only.

raiden wrote:
so why can you not give tac squads close combat weapons like a combat blade or chainsword, but Chaos marines can get them and still cost less? I understand tacs get ATSKNF but you can make chaos marines fearless fairly cheap and give them even more goodies. is ATSKNF that good? I am fairly new to the game itself but after reading a lot of books I find it strange that tacs don't any CC weapons.

Cost less? They equal their cost with CCW/pistol, if they take bolters they'll be more expensive, the fearless can be sniped and it costs more for smaller squads.

Greedy loyalists! Chapter traits and ATSKNF isn't enough?

ATSKNF is one of the most ridiculous rules in the game. You get to completely ignore a load of USRs, and more. It is quite definitely worth the points under almost any circumstances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Greedy loyalists! Chapter traits and ATSKNF isn't enough?

QFT! Why you want more options on one of the most versatile armies in the game is beyond me...

As noted a Chaos Marine with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW is actually 1pt more than a Loyalist even before you deal with the forced Champion tax.

As for what the Tacticals gain over the CSM brother:
- ATSKNF, gaining immunity to any consequences of morale with none of the weaknesses inherent to Fearless.
- Combat Squads, giving you double the Scoring power and pseudo-Split Fire.
- Chapter Tactics which variously offer Bolter Drill, FNP (6+), Crusader, Tactical Doctrines etc.
- Ability to field a Heavy weapon at 5-man
- Deploy via Drop Pod
- Razorbacks for firepower saturation
- No longer include any mandatory taxes. A Chaos Marine unit is always forced to pay an additional 10pts for that Champion regardless of whether you want him or not. VotLW is a good deal but still not included in the base cost, Marks need paying for, Icons need paying for...

Tacticals have it pretty good by comparison.

There is a reason that CSM are often seen as one of the weaker units. Which is a shame because it has always been my dream to run 120 of them in a single game.

Mozzamanx wrote:
VotLW is not a good deal because it isn't included in the base cost, Marks need paying for, Icons need paying for...

Tacticals have it pretty good by comparison.

Slight edit for the truth of the matter. CSM are the only army in the game that have to PAY for their stupid "army wide" rule. It's overcosted in basically every iteration (ooooh we get Hatred versus marines, soooo useful ) and we have to take it if we want the same LD as Chaos Marines used to have.

The only reason why it costs so much is because from what I've read they tested it exclusively against the Dark Angels book. Hence why you have units paying upwards of 2 to 3 points for something that honestly should have been included in the base cost due to its relative uselessness.

Sorry, I see the cost now, but even so Tac squads are supposed to be the most versatile feels like CSM have a lot more options in that regard in the end. (excluding requiring 10 models per unit) of course this is a newbs observation and while I am no nooby to games of this "nature" ( I use that term rather loosely) I have very little experience playing and have only watched games mostly. read through a few codies and the main book. for 3 extra points per model they get bolters and +1 attack, (+3 on the charge). but eh. I guess I am greedy. mwhaha.

raiden wrote:
Sorry, I see the cost now, but even so Tac squads are supposed to be the most versatile feels like CSM have a lot more options in that regard in the end. (excluding requiring 10 models per unit) of course this is a newbs observation and while I am no nooby to games of this "nature" ( I use that term rather loosely) I have very little experience playing and have only watched games mostly. read through a few codies and the main book. for 3 extra points per model they get bolters and +1 attack, (+3 on the charge). but eh. I guess I am greedy. mwhaha.

Nah, you guys have more options than us too. We have 4 Marks (2 of which are crap but that's another story), you guys have 6 sets of chapter tactics. Also we aren't even cheaper than you if we take a 10 man squad. 140 pts for 10 renegade marines or 140 points for a 10 man tactical squad. I know which I'd take! (And I think I know which one you'd pick as well. )