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endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

nfe wrote:
BBC reporting a study showing that black and south Asian men have 40-50% higher mortality rates than the reat of the populace (with black women seeing similar rates but not south Asian women) even when adjusted for economic and demographic variables. A worry.

Sorry, no link - I've just heard it as a breaking story on BBC news and I don't see anything on the website yet.

Why the Asian Women not ?
That is ,kinda wierd?

Well, it's kind of weird that it seems to be more deadly for certain BAME groups. Maybe whatever is the reason it is more deadly to those 3x profiles happens to not be apparent in south asian women. I think we won't know the answer to this though for a very long time, it could be something as simple as hormone response to inflammation (it probably isn't that simple to be honest though).

Well it would be a point against socioeconomic issues beeing a Main factor...(kinda?)
Wasn't there something about genetics and resistance torwards inflammations by certain groups ?


Fun fact: switzerland doesn't count seperately.

Genes do/can influence inflammation response, but then it not being as deadly for south asian women would potentially occlude that theory as why would they have the gene(s) but the men did not?

Sorry, what do you mean switzerland don't count separately? As in they are not reporting deaths by race or other demographics?

Don't forget lower Vitamin d levels and higher rates of both types of obesity.

The hypothesis in regards to southern asian men is the high levels of diabetes in the asian male population in the country. Makes absolute sense really, as diabetes damages internal organs and makes you more susceptible to infection.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Genes do/can influence inflammation response, but then it not being as deadly for south asian women would potentially occlude that theory as why would they have the gene(s) but the men did not?

Sorry, what do you mean switzerland don't count separately? As in they are not reporting deaths by race or other demographics?

Race, we ignore that , multiple reasons for that but no we don't differenciate seemingly .
Tbf most foreigners are europeans, most of those are our "relatives" alot of the others are people from yugoslavia,before it broke up ,(one of the more silent groups tbh, contrary to those that came in during the breakup for obvious reasons.)

Not Online!!! wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Genes do/can influence inflammation response, but then it not being as deadly for south asian women would potentially occlude that theory as why would they have the gene(s) but the men did not?

Sorry, what do you mean switzerland don't count separately? As in they are not reporting deaths by race or other demographics?

Race, we ignore that , multiple reasons for that but no we don't differenciate seemingly .
Tbf most foreigners are europeans, most of those are our "relatives" alot of the others are people from yugoslavia,before it broke up ,(one of the more silent groups tbh, contrary to those that came in during the breakup for obvious reasons.)

Interesting. I suppose the numbers don't need to be circulated publicly as long as they are recorded, and the data is accessible to medical professionals and scientists for the purposes of the above.

On a tangent, is that a fairly uniformed approach to reporting on domestic matters in Switzerland (race isn't made a factor). Do you think it perpetuates institutional racism or is progressive? What is the current situation on the ground in Switzerland in regards to the BLM movement?

Answer via DM if you prefer so as not to take the thread off topic. I'm fairly in deep with the BAME community in the UK, and I would like to learn as much as possible in regards to others perspectives about how it is been handled differently in other countries, and what nuances those countries have?

I was going to start a thread on this topic separately but well, it may have got far too politically ingrained a discussion for dakka.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The hypothesis in regards to southern asian men is the high levels of diabetes in the asian male population in the country. Makes absolute sense really, as diabetes damages internal organs and makes you more susceptible to infection.

there were also people over here suggesting that bloodtype could have an impact, with B beeing better off if infected then A.
which would however be a bit of an issue considering how hard it hit russia which has one of the highest B blood type rates in europe.

Not Online!!! wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The hypothesis in regards to southern asian men is the high levels of diabetes in the asian male population in the country. Makes absolute sense really, as diabetes damages internal organs and makes you more susceptible to infection.

there were also people over here suggesting that bloodtype could have an impact, with B beeing better off if infected then A.
which would however be a bit of an issue considering how hard it hit russia which has one of the highest B blood type rates in europe.

Whilst I'm aware of the base functions of blood types from my (very minimal) background in physiology from my sport science background, I have absolutely zero understanding of how that would actually influence infection resistance...

Something new to go and learn about today.

With large analysis of data sets such as what is actually happening though, I'm fairly skeptical of claims like that. How much is the data filtered at the moment, and/or how many variables are they taking into account that could filter the data and adjust it.

It could just so happen to be that certain ethnicities tend to have a certain blood type over other ethnicities, now if that ethnicity happened to also have high rates of diabetes... Different rates of blood types based on ethnicity is something I have read about before, donkeys years ago so it would need to be something I would have to go back and look into again, but you get my point.

Again, this is something that will become far more clear in the years that follow.

I also actually think some of it could be certain individuals/organisations chasing some element of fame/pr at the moment... Blasphemy in regards to scientific/medical ethics I know, but its what it seems like with the amount of theories that are actually being published, how are the media latching onto so many of them, you need to consult with other researchers... Especially with the constant need to be REDUCING miss information in regards to the virus.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/


Somewhat concerned that if you look at the 7 day average on number of new cases we seem to be not reducing any more but levelling off at over 1K new cases a day.

Which kind of makes sense considering we are relaxing lockdown measures at this state. So whilst the rest of the world aims for 0 to low hundreds the UK is appearing to be aiming higher - which of course means any spike already starts off from a high position.

Which is worrying when you consider that our track and trace has apparently failed to work and the app that was going to be central to it falls apart. II'm still confused on why the government isn't trying to do more. Even at its most basic they could be getting retailers to take peoples telephone contact number at the till and logging the number and time of shopping. At least then if the retail outlet gets a case within its population they have contact details to be used to contact shoppers to self isolate.

Work places and schools already collect and have this basic information. If we extend it to retail and food outlets and the like its within practical means to allow a greater contact reach. Public transport would be ideal as well, though might not be as practical to enforce considering the pickup and drop off speeds - though heck a simple policy of "print and hand over your phone number on a card" could be performed and collected at your entry point onto the service (at the very least allowing a per-day logging of who got onto the service).



We don't need an app to do those things and they could be done with some basic organisation of the current structure of staff in the country.

I envy your faith in people being willing to give their phone number to some 17 year old kid working at a supermarket, or a random bus driver. I'll pass.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I envy your faith in people being willing to give their phone number to some 17 year old kid working at a supermarket, or a random bus driver. I'll pass.

Eh with loyalty cards the supermarkets already have most of your contact details - same for if you've ever bought travel card online or bought a season ticket. Heck if you've got an Oyster card they've got your bank details.

This isn't about providing more information than you otherwise would have, its about providing a means to communicate to people who have used a service/facility in public on a known date. Right now if someone enters a supermarket with Corona there's almost no way to track and trace all the other potential users of that supermarket except the staff. Customers might not learn of the infection unless it makes major news outlets; or if notice is placed in the window - at which point they might only learn about it the next time they go shopping (meaning they could be spreading for 7 days for a weekly shop or longer if they are not regular customers of the store). Which basically defeats the point of track and trace.


That's why the app (which collects far more data) was important.


Plus note I only said phone number; the don't need name and address at the point of contact - only a means to communicate. Track and Trace services can collect further information on an individual when contacting them directly. So the spotty teenager only has your phone number. If you're super security weary then a simple dirt cheap mobile phone can be used so long as you keep it charged and in reception range.

Fair enough, although I personally have none of those things. It also still requires people to essentially carry a stack of business cards with them and hand them out to people. And then do you have to prove you have some before you enter the supermarket or get on the bus?

Well entering public transport yes you'd have to carry a card - or a bit of paper etc... For supermarkets sure you could carry or they can write it down (the process is much slower and you're not rushed).

Just like how right now if you want to use public transport you have to wear a mask.

Don’t other countries already have a working track&trace app?

I have a ‘points’ card for my main grocery store, which has my personal details in the account. Each time I shop, I generate points for free groceries.
This is the means by which that same grocery store contacted me twice when staff were presumptive COVID cases.
While neither followed up with a confirmed case of the illness, it was very easy for them to send me an email stating when i shopped, there was a possible contact.

I don’t know what’s it’s like elsewhere but almost every major retailer has a points program which can easily be used for contact and tracing. All that’s required to log your shopping is indeed a card (I have about 6 of them for different stores) or you can use your email or phone number.

So I don’t how or why this would be such a big deal anywhere else, as stores have had these types of programs for marketing in NA for years. It’s makes contact tracing very easy, and it’s not like I have to give a stranger my information every time I shop. I scan a card, ring stuff through and get free stuff.
Now i can also be warned of exposure.

Why would something like this be so hard to implement when I’ve been doing so for almost a decade so far?

Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

 DalekCheese wrote:
Don’t other countries already have a working track&trace app?

Yes, exactly. There are countries successfully using the Apple and Google apps, and there are countries successfully using their national app.

Then there is the UK not succeeding with either method.

It reinforces the impression that we are gak, now.

To think that the UK invented computers, programming, the WWW and loads of the world's important chips and we can't even get a crappy little app to work.

How far have we fallen?

 Overread wrote:
Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

Except some people don't want to use store cards. Its already unethical that some places are making card/contactless mandatory for purchases

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

Except some people don't want to use store cards. Its already unethical that some places are making card/contactless mandatory for purchases

App, storecards, giving a contact number/email at point of transaction/use. If you want Track and Trace to work then tracking and tracing are integral parts of it, well, working. Whilst you might be able to opt out of some schemes, in the end if it is going to work then the majority have to use such methods at least in the short term.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

Except some people don't want to use store cards. Its already unethical that some places are making card/contactless mandatory for purchases

In addition to that, I am not being stopped from buying food by my refusal to write down and hand someone I do not know my phone number (it would have to be hand written due to the software on a till, it's not so easy to throw in a 'customer information' section on a lot of tills, you also usually need some sort of training to do so - your average till worker won't have this).

That's the first issue anyway, the second is GDPR...

The third is who on earth is going to input all of this hand written data? And to where? How is that data then going to be uploaded to a database? How will they know when the people were actually in the store? It basically defeats the object of a track and trace as it will be virtually impossible to narrow down the persons, before you know it you'll have thousands upon thousands (if not more) having to self isolate, totally unnecessarily.

Anyway...

What on earth is going on in Germany?

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

Except some people don't want to use store cards. Its already unethical that some places are making card/contactless mandatory for purchases

In addition to that, I am not being stopped from buying food by my refusal to write down and hand someone I do not know my phone number (it would have to be hand written due to the software on a till, it's not so easy to throw in a 'customer information' section on a lot of tills, you also usually need some sort of training to do so - your average till worker won't have this).

When I worked retail we had promotions and charity drives all the time where the system would pop up an additional screen asking the customer if they wanted to donate to whatever cause was going on. These changed often enough that there's obviously some way to update point of sale systems centrally. I doubt anyone is saying checkers should manually program the tracking system themselves.

I'm not familiar with the tills in the UK, but if they're anything like the US customers have to type in a PIN anyway for their debit transactions so it's not a weird out of this world experience for customers to be putting in information.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

Except some people don't want to use store cards. Its already unethical that some places are making card/contactless mandatory for purchases

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
This card is not a credit card, nor is it used to pay.
It is merely a customer points card, which rewards you points for buying certain items, which those points can then be used to pay for things.
It’s more like an Airmiles card for a specific store.
All of my information is entered online, and put in a central database for all of that company’s stores.
As long as I scan the card to collect points, the store knows where and when I shopped.
It’s completely voluntary and used to track shopping habits, with the caveat that if you volunteer, you are rewarded with free stuff.
Most stores in Canada at least, have this type of program. We operate our tills in every store on a computer with software, and a central database for each franchise/company.
This isn’t about a payment card at all, but a marketing tool being used for contact tracing through a centralized database.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

Except some people don't want to use store cards. Its already unethical that some places are making card/contactless mandatory for purchases

In addition to that, I am not being stopped from buying food by my refusal to write down and hand someone I do not know my phone number (it would have to be hand written due to the software on a till, it's not so easy to throw in a 'customer information' section on a lot of tills, you also usually need some sort of training to do so - your average till worker won't have this).

That's the first issue anyway, the second is GDPR...

The third is who on earth is going to input all of this hand written data? And to where? How is that data then going to be uploaded to a database? How will they know when the people were actually in the store? It basically defeats the object of a track and trace as it will be virtually impossible to narrow down the persons, before you know it you'll have thousands upon thousands (if not more) having to self isolate, totally unnecessarily.

Anyway...

What on earth is going on in Germany?

Issues with Hygiene in butcheries.
Hardly surprising compared to what we knew was happening in China and the US with the meat industry beeing hit Hard , it was kinda forseeable that it would eventually reach those locally.
I'd however thought that the Balkans or eastern Europe would be hit that Hard first that way however.
Excluding of course russia from which we know nothing reliable except medical Staff getting defenestrated.

At the same time we know that once Corona gets into a population it can spread very fast. Even in a meat processing plant with good hygiene protocols you only need one slip-up in the system. Most likely happening before and after work. Lobbies, carparks, transport, toilets, etc... (6K staff in a meat processing plan I wonder how many are bussed back and forth daily rather than taking their own cars). Infection might not have happened on the meat processing floor, but in all the areas that surround it where workers might encounter each other.

Simple fact is that people are not wearing hazmat suits as soon as they get out of their homes. Even simple things like proper glove and facemask wearing are not trained into people for safe dressing practice. Eg I'd wager a lot of people using hand gloves to avoid contamination don't take them off without touching the outer surface with their fingers. I've also yet to see any wash all their food before they place it into the car etc...

 ScarletRose wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Exactly, all you'd need is a blanket policy for people to use a store card or leave their details and you've got a basic track and trace that works through every store. There's more than enough time to pass on your details during the payment phase and then they've got date, time and location and a means to contact you.

Costs almost nothing to put into place; provides decent accuracy of data and can be used in contact track and trace. Sure a mobile phone app works faster, but if you've not got one that works at least such a system would work in the mean time.

Except some people don't want to use store cards. Its already unethical that some places are making card/contactless mandatory for purchases

In addition to that, I am not being stopped from buying food by my refusal to write down and hand someone I do not know my phone number (it would have to be hand written due to the software on a till, it's not so easy to throw in a 'customer information' section on a lot of tills, you also usually need some sort of training to do so - your average till worker won't have this).

When I worked retail we had promotions and charity drives all the time where the system would pop up an additional screen asking the customer if they wanted to donate to whatever cause was going on. These changed often enough that there's obviously some way to update point of sale systems centrally. I doubt anyone is saying checkers should manually program the tracking system themselves.

I'm not familiar with the tills in the UK, but if they're anything like the US customers have to type in a PIN anyway for their debit transactions so it's not a weird out of this world experience for customers to be putting in information.

Some of the tills in some super markets are absolutely ancient. I suppose promotions could flag but then you are working with multiple different till software suppliers, and working with them to collate the data that is inputted...

You may as well spend the time working on getting the app working and/or doing whatever the hell needs to be done to get the apple or google one off the ground and working.

 Ghool wrote:


I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
This card is not a credit card, nor is it used to pay.
It is merely a customer points card, which rewards you points for buying certain items, which those points can then be used to pay for things.
It’s more like an Airmiles card for a specific store.
All of my information is entered online, and put in a central database for all of that company’s stores.
As long as I scan the card to collect points, the store knows where and when I shopped.
It’s completely voluntary and used to track shopping habits, with the caveat that if you volunteer, you are rewarded with free stuff.
Most stores in Canada at least, have this type of program. We operate our tills in every store on a computer with software, and a central database for each franchise/company.
This isn’t about a payment card at all, but a marketing tool being used for contact tracing through a centralized database.

No I know that. I still don't want to be required to have one to shop though. If for no other reason than I don't want millions of cards in my wallet.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 DalekCheese wrote:
Don’t other countries already have a working track&trace app?

Yes, exactly. There are countries successfully using the Apple and Google apps, and there are countries successfully using their national app.

Then there is the UK not succeeding with either method.

It reinforces the impression that we are gak, now.

To think that the UK invented computers, programming, the WWW and loads of the world's important chips and we can't even get a crappy little app to work.

How far have we fallen?

Can't or won't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
At the same time we know that once Corona gets into a population it can spread very fast. Even in a meat processing plant with good hygiene protocols you only need one slip-up in the system. Most likely happening before and after work. Lobbies, carparks, transport, toilets, etc... (6K staff in a meat processing plan I wonder how many are bussed back and forth daily rather than taking their own cars). Infection might not have happened on the meat processing floor, but in all the areas that surround it where workers might encounter each other.

Simple fact is that people are not wearing hazmat suits as soon as they get out of their homes. Even simple things like proper glove and facemask wearing are not trained into people for safe dressing practice. Eg I'd wager a lot of people using hand gloves to avoid contamination don't take them off without touching the outer surface with their fingers. I've also yet to see any wash all their food before they place it into the car etc...

Yep. South Korea had restart due to one guy. All it takes is one person intermingling with enough people and it can be rocket launch of new cases.

The problem with the meat packing plants is partly just that they have to keep going or there will be food shortages. We aren't seeing outbreaks in car planst because most of them are shut down or part time working with lots of social distancing.

Meat cutting and packing is a labour intensive industry which can't really be automated the way canning tomatoes is.

There probably are issues around hygiene, PPE and so on too.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Ghool wrote:


I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
This card is not a credit card, nor is it used to pay.
It is merely a customer points card, which rewards you points for buying certain items, which those points can then be used to pay for things.
It’s more like an Airmiles card for a specific store.
All of my information is entered online, and put in a central database for all of that company’s stores.
As long as I scan the card to collect points, the store knows where and when I shopped.
It’s completely voluntary and used to track shopping habits, with the caveat that if you volunteer, you are rewarded with free stuff.
Most stores in Canada at least, have this type of program. We operate our tills in every store on a computer with software, and a central database for each franchise/company.
This isn’t about a payment card at all, but a marketing tool being used for contact tracing through a centralized database.

No I know that. I still don't want to be required to have one to shop though. If for no other reason than I don't want millions of cards in my wallet.

If you have an email and/or phone number on the account, no card is required.

There's an app that lets you combine a gazillion membership/club/points cards on your phone - I too hated carrying all those cards.
As for the butcheries, a similar thing happened/is happening in the Netherlands. I don't know that it's a hygiene thing, as I imagine most workers already wore substantial PPE what with all the blood and all.
I suspect those animal fluids are the problem; it's an established fact the virus can infect various animals