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Hi guys ! I'm writting the fluff for my campaign and I was thinking : If Imperial Governor would find out they had a problem of zombies what would they do? Would they think It's Nurgle ? Do they even know what/who Nurgle is ? Thinks It's xenos ? What do you think?

Knowledge of the Ruinous Powers is generally kept pretty hush hush from normal folk.

They would probably think of it as a disease (a la t virus) or that the end of the world had come/emperors judgement...

It so depends on the Govenor - some will have been involved in the whole thing, others will just flee to their bunker (or better their orbtial platfrom) and scream for help. Some will assume the PDF / Arbites can handle it, still others lead them into battle.

Also alot depends on other forces are on planet - any Astartes/Sisters etc who can more easily deal with the problem - partially due to their seale Power Armour. Any Inqusitorial Presence, Impeial Guard veterans/colonists

Where the world is located - quiet back water or war zone

The nature of the Govenor and how he.she got the positon - a Retired Guards Colonel may be very different to a jaded nobles son (or not).

Knowing about the details of the Chaos Powers is dangerous but a Govenor could certainly be informed of potential dangers or call upon thse who are better informed than him.

I always imagined that knowledge about chaos are widespread in the Imperium. Not in a way we understand knowledge, but more of indirectly educating people of its dangers and going full-propoganda mode on it, revealing only enough to cause fanatical hate with no fear of it.


For example phrases as this: ''Suspicious mind is a healthy mind.'' is a form of education which helps Imperium to reveal chaos on the planet.

The last time there was a zombie plague, the entire world was cordoned off 23 billion people to stop it from spreading (CSM codex,pg.24). No doubt one person on the world would know of chaos, be he the Imperial Governor or the friendly local Inquisitor.

They would panic as much as our world would if the dead walked because they'd know as much about the situation as we would.

In reality, Zombies as described, would be curbstomped by any competent military force. Because strangely, slow, shambling, unarmed combatants with no capacity for thought make for terrible soldiers.

I'd honestly be much more worried about the Daemons, Soldiers, and Chaos Space Marines of Nurgle that would follow the Zombies.

With the Imperium's no-nonsense "crush the mutants" stance, as a general rule zombies would be kept supressed, and any outbreak met with total force.

"IRL" zombocalypse scenarios depend on 2 things usually - unrestricted travel, and people in denial.

In the Imperium, I'd imagine travel is more tightly regulated than IRL, and people there would be more likely to accept that the dead can get up walk around. After all, they worship a corpse on a shiny chair

IIRC, Necromunda had a zombie plague, but it was squashed and now only a few scattered zombie bands roam the deepest parts of the underhive.
Plague zombies are like vermin in 40k, until Typhus gets involved - then things get out of control.

Indeed, Imprium is far to competent for mere zombie apocalypse to be of any concern. It's more used as distraction and ''collateral" damage. On the other hand, planets who are ruled poorly might be susceptible to our imaginings of ridicolious no-hope, end of civilization scenarios.

Paradoxically, many of the hive worlds are particularly immune to that kind of disease, simply because lower end of population are no easy prey as we like to portray in our movies. In fact, harsh and unforgiving environment meant that they are already tough as nails and are armed to the teeth, so few zombies would be nothing compared to that they have to deal in every day of their life.

Ernestas wrote:Paradoxically, many of the hive worlds are particularly immune to that kind of disease, simply because lower end of population are no easy prey as we like to portray in our movies. In fact, harsh and unforgiving environment meant that they are already tough as nails and are armed to the teeth, so few zombies would be nothing compared to that they have to deal in every day of their life.

Paranoia and fear are dangerous weapons in their own right, and closed/cramped areas seem like a good way to spread sickness, though.

"In the closing months of the 41st Millennium, matters came to a head. Abaddon the Despoiler, the Arch Heretic united the servants of Chaos and unleashed his Thirteenth Black Crusade. The Hordes of Chaos erupted from the Eye of Terror, smashing into the defences of the Cadian Gate. Upon a hundred worlds, the unseen agents of the Ruinous Powers revealed themselves, sowing discord and confusion amongst the beleaguered defenders at a time when only total unity would see Mankind prevail. The first sign of the invasion came when a plague, the likes of which had never been seen before, swept the sectors surrounding the Gate. The over-populated hives of Subiaco Diablo were soon reduced to charnel houses of disease and corruption, doomsday cults roaming the streets proclaiming the end times for those who did not put their faith wholly in the blessed God-Emperor of Mankind. The cults preached that only those pure in every respect could hope to resist the Plague of Unbelief, as it became known, and set about the purging by flame and bullet of any they believed impure.

Soon a fate far worse than death at the hands of the plague visited itself upon the unfortunates of Subiaco Diablo. Those who had succumbed to the contagion rose once again, in the form of hideously decayed zombies, their recently dead flesh sloughing from their shuffling forms as they fell upon the survivors. [...]"
- http://web.archive.org/web/20071218114030/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/repentia.html

It depends on hive world. Some produce hardcore fighters who are equal to soldiers who comes from death worlds. They live in a state of constant warfare from lowliest to highest ranking citizens. Gangs are fighting for limited resources while rulers, noble houses are constantly competing among themselves in every way possible. Such worlds are no easy prey to such weak and pathetic beings as zombies.

On the other hand, worlds with...more normal culture are more likely to respond in more human-like fashion. Indeed, zombies do not cause downfall of society, it's people who do.
(Personally, I find it difficult to imagine of how zombie virus is dangerous in itself. Even if you are infected, killed and turned into a zombie you should kill at least one or more of them and thus, containing a plague.)


As for your quote, you indirectly supported my argument. Zombie virus in w40k is never sufficient to destroy a world. It needs huge support from chaos followers to prepare a soil for it. This infection thrives in anarchy and chaos, but in well-run and protected world such as Cadia, this infection would have no effect whatsoever.

Ernestas wrote:Indeed, zombies do not cause downfall of society, it's people who do.

That's the point I was trying to make.
And I think violent societies (such as, say, armed gangs in the underhive) are even more at risk of allowing the situation to escalate than more civilised ones. Yes, you have weapons for everyone, but in the end that may only serve to undermine order further than it would be possible in a more civilised and less upgunned society, specifically because people will think in factions and gangs rather than cooperating. Those doomsday cults from Hive Siana were obviously armed, according to the quote.

So a zombie infection wouldn't be a big threat to a ``stable`` planet but if the planet is already under attack or ``unstable`` It can be dangerous ?

 Ilove40k wrote:
So a zombie infection wouldn't be a big threat to a ``stable`` planet but if the planet is already under attack or ``unstable`` It can be dangerous ?

I wouldn't give your standard Zombie apocalypse much of a shot against Somalia.

In any case, the Zombies will largely be a distraction and cheap cannon fodder for the true followers of Nurgle.

 Kain wrote:
In reality, Zombies as described, would be curbstomped by any competent military force. Because strangely, slow, shambling, unarmed combatants with no capacity for thought make for terrible soldiers.

Go read World War Z. The book, not the film. Excellent depiction of a zombie plague in terms of epidemiology and human political/military response to random weirdness.

We're also equating some table-top crunch with a fictional scenario. Sure, you've got a lot of gangers with laspistols and slug-throwing guns... but what does shooting a corpse get you?

Nothing. Corpses don't care about bullets and they don't feel pain. Things don't have a "Wounds" stat in these scenarios. You're going to run out of ammo before you run out of zombies.

Ilove40k wrote:So a zombie infection wouldn't be a big threat to a ``stable`` planet but if the planet is already under attack or ``unstable`` It can be dangerous ?

Hmmh. I'd say it is always a threat, not just because Imperial worlds tend to be heavily segregated between the well-protected elite and the poor rabble, but also because the resulting fear would, if not cause mass chaos between armed militias, at least severely impact morale and give rise to doubt, and doubt is fertile ground for Chaos cults.

Much would hinge on how exactly local authorities react to the threat. Some may attempt to stamp out an infection as quickly and efficiently as possible, but in most cases I would foresee quarantine zones, trapping countless survivors with the contagion and swelling the ranks of plague zombies, until they are too many for security forces and PDF to contain. Planetary nobility in 40k tends to give a frag about what happens in the underhives as long as it stays there, and this dismissive, arrogant, yet oh-so-typically Imperial mindset is precisely what may well lead to a planet's doom.

But, as the previousy linked short story about Hive Siana suggested, I would regard plague zombies as merely the most obvious facet of a larger plan at work.

 Flinty wrote:

 Kain wrote:
In reality, Zombies as described, would be curbstomped by any competent military force. Because strangely, slow, shambling, unarmed combatants with no capacity for thought make for terrible soldiers.

Go read World War Z. The book, not the film. Excellent depiction of a zombie plague in terms of epidemiology and human political/military response to random weirdness.

I have, and I saw it getting torn apart by actual military experts on Spacebattles.com. Where it was denounced as unrealistic, wanky towards outdated methods of warfare, forces the military to be braindead, it's fandom and author being incredibly smug about it being "realistic" when it's not, and shows that Max Brooks has a serious hate complex for modern warfare.

And the people on SB.com are very smart and know their way around militaries both real and fictional.

To get a zombie apocalypse to work you need like Chryssalids or the Flood.

Honestly, even Prototype gets it better where the military pretty much contains a superpowered virus with superpowered creations to New York City.

Kain wrote:And the people on SB.com are very smart and know their way around militaries both real and fictional.

I admit I do not know that forum too well, but I stumbled over a couple of their threads and I'm not sure I would agree. What I have seen just comes across as opinionated people argueing over fictional numbers as if there was a way to reliably compare them to real world physical equivalents. Some of their posters may be different, but there seems to be a culture of drowning one another out, resulting in the loudest faction "winning the argument"?

Admittedly, many threads in dakka's background section look similar (and I am certainly not innocent myself), but I don't see a reason to attribute more credibility to one random bunch of internet geeks over another. And even dakka generally isn't that obsessed with details (that frequently contradict).

 Lynata wrote:

Kain wrote:And the people on SB.com are very smart and know their way around militaries both real and fictional.

I admit I do not know that forum too well, but I stumbled over a couple of their threads and I'm not sure I would agree. What I have seen just comes across as opinionated people argueing over fictional numbers as if there was a way to reliably compare them to real world physical equivalents. Some of their posters may be different, but there seems to be a culture of drowning one another out, resulting in the loudest faction "winning the argument"?

Admittedly, many threads in dakka's background section look similar (and I am certainly not innocent myself), but I don't see a reason to attribute more credibility to one random bunch of internet geeks over another. And even dakka generally isn't that obsessed with details (that frequently contradict).

The spacebattles method of winning debates is heavily math reliant, putting feats into context and objectifying everything as much as possible.

So an example.

There's your example.
As for world war Z bashing

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/world-war-z-realistic-or-not.116645/

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/world-war-z-force-sub-avatarverse.271286/


Zombies are ineffective as a main weapon unless they're like the X-parasites, in which case they're less zombies and more space magic body modding, biomass slurping aliens.

It depends. Zombies need to get momentum rolling. Few of them could be dispatched by an armed kid in hive world, you need a mass of zombies in order to effectively infect more and thus, order must be thrown of balance by cults efforts. They will need to ''create'' enough zombies and to unleash them in right place and in the right time.
Gangs are also strong speed bump for zombie plague. Constant warfare have made them hardened veterans and all civilians are far harder to kill than our civilians that are portrayed in popular movies due theirs close and constant proximity to violence. Zombies will find harder time infecting population due to that and gangs will cause great casualties to them during any fight and so, zombies will find difficulty in spreading.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but I think that this plague needs support to become a threat. While nobles are very reluctant to acknowledge problems in lower levels of the spire, it would still require considerable efforts from the cults to prepare soil for it due to simple nature of hive world and relative massive amounts of small-arms weapons that exists in those levels and a hardened culture that exists there. Even if psychology would favors gangs, abundance of weaponary will make infection progress very inefficient.
Also, if hive world is ruled directly by the Imperium, then zombies would be laughable threat. Imperium stereotypically sends extreme responses to anything that are looking like chaos and those zombies would only betray cults presence. Even if zombies are controling hive city, Imperial guard outposts are unlikely to be overrun. Imperial guard typically are well-led (arrogant commanders grows from lack of decent foe) and they focuses on massed firepower instead of relying on precision based weapons as we do. I wouldn't be surprised if they would bring small artillery pieces, knowing that kind of foe they will be facing.


And in the quote, it's mentioned that cults have spread disease and panic among population and only later unleashed the virus then there was enough dead and population was already in panic.

... unless the Z-virus is airborne. Then you could have thirty-five million zombies in a matter of days.

Then there is a little point of having zombies in the first place. Initial waves would be just as deadly as rotting corpses and survivors would have air-filters to negate disease. Zombies would simply starve out due to their explosive growth and non-existent feed rates.

I was looking at Nurgle's gifts and it seems that in w40k universe, you cannot posses human (to make him zombie) without having to fight with his will first. Previous link of that quote contained sister of battle fighting off T-virus and other sisters being completely immune to it. Also, take a look to others jewels that Nurgle can gift to you:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Doubtworm#.Uk3goYanqYE
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Vile_Savants#.Uk3h2IanqYE

Nasal filters? In the Low Hive/Underhive?

Haha. It's funny that you think the Imperium gives one, single feth about these people. They are imminently replaceable, simply by shipping them in from other Hive Worlds. The "nasal filters" these types of people are going to get is a bandana or a scarf tied around their face.

If the Z-virus behaves like a true virus... that ain't going to help. It would be even more useless a measure if it was airborne and also spread through physical contact. Given enough time, the virus will be in the air in sufficient concentrations to get it just by walking through it.

You also don't need to possess the person. There are plenty of things in the galaxy that can create zombies without needing to overcome their willpower (and, let's be honest, the people in the Underhive don't really have much willpower, most of them are alcoholics or drug addicts.). The Sarcosan Wave Generator is one tech-based way of turning people into zombies.

Kain wrote:The spacebattles method of winning debates is heavily math reliant, putting feats into context and objectifying everything as much as possible.

Which is of course heavily dependent on the individual person's interpretation, and thus personal preference. Heck, even if you look at the original sources themselves you almost always have contradicting signals, often due to plot. Just take 40k, for example, where the various authors cannot even agree on the average height on a Space Marine, much less what they're capable of or what their armour can withstand.
I'm no expert in comic books, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is a regular thing. Because the purpose of comic books is first and foremost to tell exciting stories, not to create a plausible setting.

And just because some people make it look like math because they're transforming anecdotal reports of fictional events that may well be plot-influenced one-offs into hard numbers by virtue of guessing doesn't make the resulting thesis any less wobbly.

But we're not here to debate SB.

Ernestas wrote:While nobles are very reluctant to acknowledge problems in lower levels of the spire, it would still require considerable efforts from the cults to prepare soil for it due to simple nature of hive world and relative massive amounts of small-arms weapons that exists in those levels and a hardened culture that exists there. Even if psychology would favors gangs, abundance of weaponary will make infection progress very inefficient.

I think the contrary. The violent climate would have created a very uneasy situation where the gangs are constantly preying upon one another - just look at Necromunda. Introduce an unknown element into this situation .. such as, say, localised assaults from zombies, and you will have elements trying to take advantage of this situation rather than working together.

Ernestas wrote:Imperial guard typically are well-led (arrogant commanders grows from lack of decent foe) and they focuses on massed firepower instead of relying on precision based weapons as we do. I wouldn't be surprised if they would bring small artillery pieces, knowing that kind of foe they will be facing.

If we were to go by Codex fluff, Imperial Guard regiments are typically very focused in terms of equipment; an infantry regiment will have very little to nothing in terms of tanks or artillery, and vice versa. And their commanders tend to be arrogant because they come from the noble castes of whatever planet the regiment was raised on. Of course you could argue that, say, Chenkov is a man who gets the job done, but I'm not sure whether a tactic like "throw more bodies at it" might work so well against an infectious zombie plague.

Ernestas wrote:And in the quote, it's mentioned that cults have spread disease and panic among population and only later unleashed the virus then there was enough dead and population was already in panic.

It's connected. The initial disease caused the panic and paranoia, then those who died of it rose again.

"The first sign of the invasion came when a plague, the likes of which had never been seen before, swept the sectors surrounding the Gate. [...] Those who had succumbed to the contagion rose once again, in the form of hideously decayed zombies, their recently dead flesh sloughing from their shuffling forms as they fell upon the survivors."

This, too, may work in favour of the zombies - the threat isn't even realised before a good portion of the populace is already infected, dying, or dead. Only then do they finally appear.

Psienesis wrote:You also don't need to possess the person. There are plenty of things in the galaxy that can create zombies without needing to overcome their willpower

For the zombie plague, being a supernatural (psychic?) illness, I'd theorise it actually is heavily dependent on willpower, just like any kind of corruption - but as you say, a bunch of addicts, gangers, slaves and other poor sods may not be very resilient against such kind of taint. The average human, including even Guardsmen, likely has little chance against the gifts of Nurgle.

I meant survivors, those few individuals who are lucky enough to realise that is happening and have air-filter nearby. And zombies, if virus is so contagious then that's the point of zombies? Infection will consume all living things that it can reach and it will leave all zombies starving. Without occasional food, they are as good as rotting corpses.

I think the contrary. The violent climate would have created a very uneasy situation where the gangs are constantly preying upon one another - just look at Necromunda. Introduce an unknown element into this situation .. such as, say, localised assaults from zombies, and you will have elements trying to take advantage of this situation rather than working together.

The problem lies that I simply do not perceive T-virus as a threat. It's dangerous then it gets out of control, but how it can get out of control if every person has a gun and can kill at least one of them before being ''killed" himself?

If we were to go by Codex fluff, Imperial Guard regiments are typically very focused in terms of equipment; an infantry regiment will have very little to nothing in terms of tanks or artillery, and vice versa.

Multiple regiments creates a force which are more efficient than it would be otherwise. Overwhelming need of practicality due to constant warfare makes me guess that Imperial guard regiments gets mixed up and they are separate entities only in down time.

. And their commanders tend to be arrogant because they come from the noble castes of whatever planet the regiment was raised on.

Imperium doesn't care about your roots as long as you are useful to them (and loyal). Imperial schools raise talented people from any background. While nobility is popular amongst commanders, it's certainly not a rule. Also, Imperial guard is in a constant state of being in war, pacifying planets or waiting to arrive into a fresh war, due to that, it's logical to assume that Imperial armies should typically be competent at that they do and so, then faced with inferior opposition (such as rebellions or greenskins(not in Waaaaghh state)) their confidence grows and from that- arrogance.

Ernestas wrote:The problem lies that I simply do not perceive T-virus as a threat. It's dangerous then it gets out of control, but how it can get out of control if every person has a gun and can kill at least one of them before being ''killed" himself?

In case of the zombie plague, it seems that people won't even notice how it spreads until it's too late. People may start to cough or feel unwell, but ... well, I'm not sure this is something special in pollution-ridden hives, and the availability of medical care in the Imperium is pretty abysmal.

Even when the first sick people drop dead after, say, a week, nobody will suspect that those guys will rise up as zombies just a few days later - at least that's my current train of thought ...

Ernestas wrote:Multiple regiments creates a force which are more efficient than it would be otherwise. Overwhelming need of practicality due to constant warfare makes me guess that Imperial guard regiments gets mixed up and they are separate entities only in down time.

Yep, so a garrisoned regiment on a world will be that separate entity.
For an Army Group to assemble it takes weeks, not to mention the added element of randomness due to Warp travel.

On the other hand, a Hive is likely to have a significant force of PDF. It may depend on whether or not the infection has spread to the barracks?

Ernestas wrote:Imperium doesn't care about your roots as long as you are useful to them (and loyal). Imperial schools raise talented people from any background. While nobility is popular amongst commanders, it's certainly not a rule.

The Imperium cares not about your roots - but the Munitorum tithes regiments from its worlds in the manner they are given to them, and since (or so I believe) the majority of Imperial worlds are governed in a feudal model with families of nobility, the commanders of the PDF will tend to hail from one of the leading castes. When a PDF regiment is tithed, its command structure remains in place.

There will obviously be exceptions from this "rule", though. Feral worlds may have their strongest warrior lead the "clan" tithed to the IG, and in Creed Cadia has a prominent example for people rising through the ranks on merit alone.

And the Schola Progenium raises orphans regardless of background, but those do not become IG officers. In terms of the regular military, it has been said they can become Storm Troopers, Navy Midshipsmen, or NCOs serving in Segmentum Command.

 Kain wrote:

There's your example.
As for world war Z bashing

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/world-war-z-realistic-or-not.116645/

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/world-war-z-force-sub-avatarverse.271286/

I had a look. I'm not convinced by most of their arguments, given the background included in the book... but that is for somewhere else

in pollution-ridden hives, and the availability of medical care in the Imperium is pretty abysmal.

Even when the first sick people drop dead after, say, a week, nobody will suspect that those guys will rise up as zombies just a few days later - at least that's my current train of thought ...

In that case, I do agree. Initial shock of disease might be enough to take out a hive world.

Yep, so a garrisoned regiment on a world will be that separate entity.
For an Army Group to assemble it takes weeks, not to mention the added element of randomness due to Warp travel.

On the other hand, a Hive is likely to have a significant force of PDF. It may depend on whether or not the infection has spread to the barracks?

Infection rates among soldiers will be a greatest factor. I do not think that they would live among gangs and lower spires general poverty. I would imagine that noble houses would want them closer for their own benefit, also, it would serve poorly for planet rulers to have their soldiers sympathising with lower hive or being corrupted by gangs. Due to that, I imagine PDF being stationed in middle levels of the spire among middle class. There, medical aid and sanitary should be of far greater quality. Also, solders tend to be more wilful humans and thus, would have greater resistance to the disease.

Imperial guard aren't usually stationed in such places. If they were, I would imagine that they would obey only Imperial authority and not will of hives rulers. To say how quickly and how infection will effect them is very difficult. Imperial guard usually have a higher discipline and sanitary due to that. Some of them would be completely immune to all supernatural diseases due to simply being not humans (death korps of krieg), sisters of battle is also nearly immune to such will tests. I doubt that we would see Imperial guard in panic, Imperial authority usually is very hard to get rid off and Imperial guard symbolize that. I would bet that their discipline would hold and nurgle's worshipers would need to get rid off them by sending half of their zombies reserves to empty their ammunition first in order to kill them.

Ernestas wrote:Infection rates among soldiers will be a greatest factor. I do not think that they would live among gangs and lower spires general poverty. I would imagine that noble houses would want them closer for their own benefit, also, it would serve poorly for planet rulers to have their soldiers sympathising with lower hive or being corrupted by gangs. Due to that, I imagine PDF being stationed in middle levels of the spire among middle class. There, medical aid and sanitary should be of far greater quality. Also, solders tend to be more wilful humans and thus, would have greater resistance to the disease.

I don't really agree on medical aid and sanitary conditions being "much" better, but this is arguably a matter of how we imagine hives to look like and my idea may just be a bit more dystopian than yours. I also don't think their minds would be much more shielded than the gangers (perhaps even less? unlike a gang and its identity, the troops may just see their profession as a job). As for willpower, I lean towards only Schola graduates being fanatical enough to have a greater chance at resisting corruption - if we are talking about group averages rather than just individuals, that is.

I do agree about the distance to the underhives, though. At least from what I've read, the authorities generally don't care what happens on the lower levels, so defence and security forces should remain unaffected in the initial phases. Though it also means they may not know what's happening down there until it is too late!

Ernestas wrote:Imperial guard aren't usually stationed in such places.

Aye, it just sounded as if the "Imperial Guard outposts" you mentioned earlier would be there right from the beginning, rather than only arriving when the planet is already under duress, if at all. Probably a misunderstanding, then.