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I hear a lot of talk about the Heldrake, but I've yet to see much said about the FW options and how good/bad they are.

I am speaking primarily about the Hell Talon, the Hell Blade and the Nurgle Blight Drone. Of course other options I'm forgetting would be interesting to hear about too.

How do they stack up? Are they a good alternative to the Baledrake competitively? How about casually? I've been toying with the idea of a CSM army and would like to know, and I'm sure others could benefit from some talk about these other options, especially at this point in the edition.

The HellTalon is nice, with supersonic and strafing run. It's like a Dakkajet but slightly more survivable.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The HellTalon is nice, with supersonic and strafing run. It's like a Dakkajet but slightly more survivable.

Cool. Anyone use any of the others? I'm trying to cast a wide net here because frankly I've got no interest in the Baledrake and want to know my options.

Blight Drones are love. Well, they were at their original 125 pts... then FW tacked on the wonderfully useless 'Daemonic Resilience' ability for another +25 points... now Blight Drones are like.

Still, my only complaint now is that they're not quite as good a deal as they were before, but I run 2 in every Nurgle list I have. The maw cannon is excellent - it gives you the choice of dropping a battle cannon pie plate on your enemy, or roasting them with a heavy flamer (only at +1 strength) if the fools try to cower in ruins (although you have to be careful - the template does not have torrent, so you'll have to get in close). The Reaper is acceptable. It's twin-linked so the drone's low BS won't hurt you too much and it can throw an extra wound on here and there - in a pinch, it can even serve as anti-air (although you waste your maw cannon shots in doing so), but I've sent more than one annoying, incautious flyer plummeting out of the skies. Plus, as a Daemon, the drone's get an organic 5++ and can Deep Strike, if you feel the need to offer some surprise STR 8 on an enemy's rear.

In summation, I find them to be nasty little surprises for any list. Flamers for hordes in cover, AP3 for marines, and the occasional Reaper shot added in. They do require a bit more skill than a Baledrake, since without vector strike and the torrent weapon, you have to make sure that you get the right facing for them.

I haven't used Heldrakes before - slowly painting one - so I can't say how they compare to that. I just know my opponents have an intense dislike of buzzing sounds and flying battle cannons...

Unfortunately the FW flyers are all outclassed by the Heldrake and all the other good flyers.
Using FW CSM flyers just takes away your opportunity to use CSMs one good thing unfortunately.

That's great to hear Bladed Crescent! I've been toying with a Vraks Nurgle Army (I emailed FW about it and they said to use the Plague Marines out of the CSM codex instead because those are updated) and the Blight Drone was something I was really hoping was as cool as it looked. Thanks for the heads up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

herpguy wrote:
Unfortunately the FW flyers are all outclassed by the Heldrake and all the other good flyers.
Using FW CSM flyers just takes away your opportunity to use CSMs one good thing unfortunately.

"all other good flyers" you say? Odd because I'm not hearing bad things about the FW Flyers so far. About the only one I'd agree with potentially is your statement about the Heldrake but I care for it not, and don't play in tournaments like Nova so see no point in jumping to get one either.

The blight drone is indeed not bad for the points, when it was 125 it was pretty damned good, the heldrake FAQ may well have limited it's use in terms of competitiveness but I still like to take them occasionally just because they're pretty. As for the other two I've got pretty much no experience running them but they've always been considered less good than the blight drone so that should place them for you.

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
The blight drone is indeed not bad for the points, when it was 125 it was pretty damned good, the heldrake FAQ may well have limited it's use in terms of competitiveness but I still like to take them occasionally just because they're pretty. As for the other two I've got pretty much no experience running them but they've always been considered less good than the blight drone so that should place them for you.

Good to know! I'm actually really pleased to hear that it's not a bad purchase, I really dig the model.

ClockWorkZion wrote:Blight Drone was something I was really hoping was as cool as it looked. Thanks for the heads up!

Not a problem. They can be quite fragile and if using the Vomit (or is that Phlegm? - whichever, it's the Large Blast profile of the mawcannon), expect to see some fair-sized scattering due to their low BS, but I've never been disappointed with them. They look good, they're fairly easy to paint and pack a surprise punch. I just long for the days of yore when they didn't have the extra 25 points tacked on...

Ignatius-Gruigor wrote:The blight drone is indeed not bad for the points, when it was 125 it was pretty damned good, the heldrake FAQ may well have limited it's use in terms of competitiveness but I still like to take them occasionally just because they're pretty. As for the other two I've got pretty much no experience running them but they've always been considered less good than the blight drone so that should place them for you.

Sad but true. In fact, I found that the Blight Drone was a filthy steal at 125 (I guess that's why it got the cost bump), but at 150? The Heldrake looks an awful lot more tempting for the better side armour, Torrent and extra HP. Still, I love my Blight Drones to bits. They're very good models both aesthetically and game-wise. I haven't had a game yet where my Blight Drones, even if they didn't earn their points back, didn't cause some maximum disarray to the enemy, if only in an attempt to shoot them down once the drones started dropping pie plates. They're not so good against heavy armour or AP2 - but then, neither are Heldrakes. Plus, Blight Drones are a smaller model (and come mounted on a skimmer base rather than the flying stand), so line of sight is kinder to them.

You're forgetting the Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor.

Storm Eagle on paper doesn't look like it really brings much to the table. 20man carry capacity for CSM is very hard to take advantage of for a reasonable points cost, and the Eagle itselfs most promising feature is the ability to take quad hellstrike missiles. Beast of a model all the same.

Fire Raptor has the potential to be brutal, but since we can only speculate on armament/points right now, it's hard to tell. Looks like 2* Quad Heavy Bolters and and Vulcan/Avenger Mega Bolter on the nose, with the option for hellstrike missiles again, so if it's reasonably costed it could be a real beast of a gunboat for wrecking infantry.

Problem with Heldrakes is that they're guaranteed to be nerfed next edition of the codex, so while you'd still get a lot of mileage out of them between now and then, I personally am not a fan of buying units that are guaranteed to be obsolete. Plus they reek of having zero imagination.

herpguy wrote:
Unfortunately the FW flyers are all outclassed by the Heldrake and all the other good flyers.
Using FW CSM flyers just takes away your opportunity to use CSMs one good thing unfortunately.

The problem I think is that the FW flyers compete with FA slots. All the good stuff in the CSM codex is in the FA slot. If there was an elite or HS flyer in FW....

 Bladed Crescent wrote:
Blight Drones are love. Well, they were at their original 125 pts... then FW tacked on the wonderfully useless 'Daemonic Resilience' ability for another +25 points... now Blight Drones are like.

Still, my only complaint now is that they're not quite as good a deal as they were before, but I run 2 in every Nurgle list I have. The maw cannon is excellent - it gives you the choice of dropping a battle cannon pie plate on your enemy, or roasting them with a heavy flamer (only at +1 strength) if the fools try to cower in ruins (although you have to be careful - the template does not have torrent, so you'll have to get in close). The Reaper is acceptable. It's twin-linked so the drone's low BS won't hurt you too much and it can throw an extra wound on here and there - in a pinch, it can even serve as anti-air (although you waste your maw cannon shots in doing so), but I've sent more than one annoying, incautious flyer plummeting out of the skies. Plus, as a Daemon, the drone's get an organic 5++ and can Deep Strike, if you feel the need to offer some surprise STR 8 on an enemy's rear.

In summation, I find them to be nasty little surprises for any list. Flamers for hordes in cover, AP3 for marines, and the occasional Reaper shot added in. They do require a bit more skill than a Baledrake, since without vector strike and the torrent weapon, you have to make sure that you get the right facing for them.

I haven't used Heldrakes before - slowly painting one - so I can't say how they compare to that. I just know my opponents have an intense dislike of buzzing sounds and flying battle cannons...

What book did the cost of Blight drones changed to 150pts?
I use them in my daemon list in squadron of 3 and they realy work wonders with their pie-plates

 Ratliker wrote:


What book did the cost of Blight drones changed to 150pts?
I use them in my daemon list in squadron of 3 and they realy work wonders with their pie-plates

The new Imperial Armour Apocalypse book changed them from their Aeronautica points cost (WHYYY?, he cried forlornly into the ether) -bumping them to 150 and gaining a Soul Grinder's 'Daemonic Resilience' rule, so if you know the rest of the stats, you're good. I had a perfect 2000-points-on-the-nose Nurgle footslogger list and a 1,996-point fast-moving list that I suddenly had to find 50 extra points for...

None of them are very useful.

The Blight Drone is a newbie trap unit. Yes, a STR 8 AP 3 pie plate looks good in theory, but STR 8 AP 3 is weak against vehicles so your only real target is infantry. And against infantry the Helldrake also wounds on a 2+ with AP 3, except it doesn't scatter and doesn't allow cover saves. STR 8 only really matters if you can instant death T4 (crisis suits, for example), and even then the auto-hit flamer probably works just as well.

The Hell Blade is just awful. It's a "cheap and efficient" unit, but isn't actually all that cheap or efficient. Two TL ACs is mediocre at best (compare it to a Vendetta's three TL LCs for only 15 points more and cry), and AV 10 with 2 HP is just awful. Sadly this is one of those units that would make sense if the Tau and DA flyers were the only options, but GW/FW keep forgetting that the Helldrake and Vendetta exist.

The Hell Talon is also awful. Now you're paying more points than a Helldrake for a unit that depends on STR 6 AP 4 small blast bombs to accomplish anything. It should be obvious why this is a bad idea when you can spend fewer points to get a flamer Helldrake.


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Ap0k wrote:
You're forgetting the Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor. and the Eagle itselfs most promising feature is the ability to take quad hellstrike missiles.

You mean the worst "feature". Hellstrike missiles are worse than having no weapon at all since when you shoot one you make all of your other guns BS 1 (and the pie plates on the Storm Eagle can't fire at all). And since all you get is a single STR 8 AP 3 shot (not even blast) there are very few situations where you would ever want to use one. They'd be a weak upgrade if they were free, since you have to pay points to get them they're probably the most useless "upgrade" in the game right now.


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 Bladed Crescent wrote:
(WHYYY?, he cried forlornly into the ether)

Because at 125 points they were too close to an auto-include, as people here have demonstrated.

Bladed Crescent wrote:

ClockWorkZion wrote:Blight Drone was something I was really hoping was as cool as it looked. Thanks for the heads up!

Not a problem. They can be quite fragile and if using the Vomit (or is that Phlegm? - whichever, it's the Large Blast profile of the mawcannon), expect to see some fair-sized scattering due to their low BS, but I've never been disappointed with them. They look good, they're fairly easy to paint and pack a surprise punch. I just long for the days of yore when they didn't have the extra 25 points tacked on...

Fair enough. That extra point bump is always a pain when it happens. Thanks for the tips!

Ignatius-Gruigor wrote:The blight drone is indeed not bad for the points, when it was 125 it was pretty damned good, the heldrake FAQ may well have limited it's use in terms of competitiveness but I still like to take them occasionally just because they're pretty. As for the other two I've got pretty much no experience running them but they've always been considered less good than the blight drone so that should place them for you.

Yeah, Heldrakes are the automatic choice, at least for the big tournament player. I play in a fairly causal environment with only the occasional 1.5K Rogue Trader so the Blight Drone still sound pretty good to me.

Ignatius-Gruigor wrote:Sad but true. In fact, I found that the Blight Drone was a filthy steal at 125 (I guess that's why it got the cost bump), but at 150? The Heldrake looks an awful lot more tempting for the better side armour, Torrent and extra HP. Still, I love my Blight Drones to bits. They're very good models both aesthetically and game-wise. I haven't had a game yet where my Blight Drones, even if they didn't earn their points back, didn't cause some maximum disarray to the enemy, if only in an attempt to shoot them down once the drones started dropping pie plates. They're not so good against heavy armour or AP2 - but then, neither are Heldrakes. Plus, Blight Drones are a smaller model (and come mounted on a skimmer base rather than the flying stand), so line of sight is kinder to them.

Those are some nice points. The ability to hide them easier from Interceptor shots has to be one heck of a boon too.

Ap0k wrote:You're forgetting the Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor.

You're right, I did.

Ap0k wrote:YStorm Eagle on paper doesn't look like it really brings much to the table. 20man carry capacity for CSM is very hard to take advantage of for a reasonable points cost, and the Eagle itselfs most promising feature is the ability to take quad hellstrike missiles. Beast of a model all the same.

Yeah, a guy locally was putting on together for his Dark Angels I think. Big model alright. I don't see it being quite as handy though to the CSM.

Ap0k wrote:YFire Raptor has the potential to be brutal, but since we can only speculate on armament/points right now, it's hard to tell. Looks like 2* Quad Heavy Bolters and and Vulcan/Avenger Mega Bolter on the nose, with the option for hellstrike missiles again, so if it's reasonably costed it could be a real beast of a gunboat for wrecking infantry.

Good point! That thing might be the alternate gunship CSM need.

Ap0k wrote:YProblem with Heldrakes is that they're guaranteed to be nerfed next edition of the codex, so while you'd still get a lot of mileage out of them between now and then, I personally am not a fan of buying units that are guaranteed to be obsolete. Plus they reek of having zero imagination.

Agreed. I've never liked spamming stuff just because the internet says it's the only way to play (last time I played CSM I was running a Nurgle Prince with Wings and Warp Time instead of Dual Lash Princes and I had a lot of fun with him. Shame they broke Warptime though). And yeah, everyone who is loading up on 3+ Heldrakes will be bawling next book about how GW nerfed them.

Exergy wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Unfortunately the FW flyers are all outclassed by the Heldrake and all the other good flyers.
Using FW CSM flyers just takes away your opportunity to use CSMs one good thing unfortunately.

The problem I think is that the FW flyers compete with FA slots. All the good stuff in the CSM codex is in the FA slot. If there was an elite or HS flyer in FW....

By "all the good stuff" you don't just mean the Heldrake do you? Because personally I'm not interested in running even one. Some of us just want to have fun, and Heldrakes don't really fit into what I think of when I think "Nurgle". I think of it more as a Iron Warriors or Word Bearers tool, but that's just me.

Bladed Crescent wrote:

 Ratliker wrote:


What book did the cost of Blight drones changed to 150pts?
I use them in my daemon list in squadron of 3 and they realy work wonders with their pie-plates

The new Imperial Armour Apocalypse book changed them from their Aeronautica points cost (WHYYY?, he cried forlornly into the ether) -bumping them to 150 and gaining a Soul Grinder's 'Daemonic Resilience' rule, so if you know the rest of the stats, you're good. I had a perfect 2000-points-on-the-nose Nurgle footslogger list and a 1,996-point fast-moving list that I suddenly had to find 50 extra points for...

Well I needed that book eventually anyways so I can run the updated Vraks zombies so I guess it's not all bad.

Peregrine wrote:None of them are very useful.

Do you mean competitively or to all players ever regardless of the level of game they wish to play? And if you mean competitively, do you mean events like Nova, or do you mean even at local tournaments? Quantification of the context is our friend.

Peregrine wrote:The Blight Drone is a newbie trap unit. Yes, a STR 8 AP 3 pie plate looks good in theory, but STR 8 AP 3 is weak against vehicles so your only real target is infantry. And against infantry the Helldrake also wounds on a 2+ with AP 3, except it doesn't scatter and doesn't allow cover saves. STR 8 only really matters if you can instant death T4 (crisis suits, for example), and even then the auto-hit flamer probably works just as well.

Yes we're all aware how "great" the Heldrake is. I didn't want to hear about it because it's all everyone talks about and I can never find any information on the other flyer options. And in what world is S8 suddenly weak against vehicles? A Heldrake is only S7 when vector striking them!

Peregrine wrote:The Hell Blade is just awful. It's a "cheap and efficient" unit, but isn't actually all that cheap or efficient. Two TL ACs is mediocre at best (compare it to a Vendetta's three TL LCs for only 15 points more and cry), and AV 10 with 2 HP is just awful. Sadly this is one of those units that would make sense if the Tau and DA flyers were the only options, but GW/FW keep forgetting that the Helldrake and Vendetta exist.

So you see no use for a cheap/light aircraft for the CSM that is made to crack vehicles or enemy aircraft? I mean I get it, you love the Heldrake, but are you saying that because that the Heldrake exists we can't even look at other options? Preposterous.

Also, I don't care about Vendettas. Yes, they exist, but they aren't CSM flyers now are they? If this was about IG and the merits of taking say the Vulture, I'd understand.

Peregrine wrote:The Hell Talon is also awful. Now you're paying more points than a Helldrake for a unit that depends on STR 6 AP 4 small blast bombs to accomplish anything. It should be obvious why this is a bad idea when you can spend fewer points to get a flamer Helldrake.

A lot of bomber units only have small blasts. And again, who the biscuits was asking about the "virtures" of the Heldrake!? We get it. You find it to be the best thing since Dual Lash Prince CSM builds, but the point of this topic was to look at options besides the Heldrake. There are volumes written about the Heldrake and how everyone likes it and it's the best thing since mankind invented sex but I don't care. I started a topic about FW Flyers that CSM can take so would you kindly keep it on topic next time?

I mean for crying out loud, by the time I got to the end of your post I thought GW was paying you a commission to sell the darned things.

I'm not sure why someone would not want to buy or make a Heldrake. They look really cool and are very effective flyers.

But the Blight Drones also a neat models to have on the table. I don't have my Apoc book in front of me, but if they are Daemon of Nurgle you can drop them in off Daemon Icons for cover ignoring Vomit attacks, that would be fun Plus then they'd have the Shrouded rule too.

Hell Blades are super easy to kill, I wouldn't waste my money on those, and they don't look super cool either. Hell Talons are HUGE, and a more impressive model. However, I think you cannot drop the bombs on the turn they come in, which is really what you want that for, and they die easily to Quad Guns.

The Chaos Thunderhawk is...well, a Thunderhawk! But that is not for normal 40k. But the Storm Eagle I think could be a very good flyer for CSM. Might want to couple it with a Comms Relay; then you can pretty much guarantee a Turn 3 assault whereever you want it to happen. 36" in, then Hover and assault vehicle charge. Not too much more than a Land Raider is it? I forget.

I'm not sure what this Chaos FireRaptor is that someone wrote about. I will have to check it out!

You mean the worst "feature". Hellstrike missiles are worse than having no weapon at all since when you shoot one you make all of your other guns BS 1 (and the pie plates on the Storm Eagle can't fire at all). And since all you get is a single STR 8 AP 3 shot (not even blast) there are very few situations where you would ever want to use one. They'd be a weak upgrade if they were free, since you have to pay points to get them they're probably the most useless "upgrade" in the game right now.

Oh wow, good point. I'd been confusing the blast template with the Hellfury Missiles. Single shot krak missiles are considerably less appealing then.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I'm not sure why someone would not want to buy or make a Heldrake. They look really cool and are very effective flyers.

Effective? Yeah, I can agree with that. Cool? Subject to individual tastes and preferences. Fitting a themed army more than part of the time? No, not really. Some of us build armies around themes when we can. And as I said, a Heldrake doesn't fit mine.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
But the Blight Drones also a neat models to have on the table. I don't have my Apoc book in front of me, but if they are Daemon of Nurgle you can drop them in off Daemon Icons for cover ignoring Vomit attacks, that would be fun Plus then they'd have the Shrouded rule too.

That could be fun.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Hell Blades are super easy to kill, I wouldn't waste my money on those, and they don't look super cool either. Hell Talons are HUGE, and a more impressive model. However, I think you cannot drop the bombs on the turn they come in, which is really what you want that for, and they die easily to Quad Guns.

Bombs can be dropped as long as you pass over an enemy unit in the movement phase last time I checked, but I'd have to check again.

And outside of the Heldrake everything dies easilly to Quadguns, or so the Internet tells me.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Chaos Thunderhawk is...well, a Thunderhawk! But that is not for normal 40k. But the Storm Eagle I think could be a very good flyer for CSM. Might want to couple it with a Comms Relay; then you can pretty much guarantee a Turn 3 assault whereever you want it to happen. 36" in, then Hover and assault vehicle charge. Not too much more than a Land Raider is it? I forget.

I don't have the rules handy, but yeah Storm Eagle hasn't really impressed me so far.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I'm not sure what this Chaos FireRaptor is that someone wrote about. I will have to check it out!

Think Storm Eagle that replaces transport capacity with more guns. FW is going to be releasing the rules for free as a test set because they didn't get done in time for Massacre to go to the printers.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Some of us build armies around themes when we can. And as I said, a Heldrake doesn't fit mine.

So build a Helldrake model that is a giant Nurgle zombie dragon spewing vast torrents of plague filth at the enemy. The Helldrake only "doesn't fit" if you're completely unimaginative with your army.

And of course if a Helldrake isn't Nurgly enough for you then how exactly is a Hell Blade any better?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Do you mean competitively or to all players ever regardless of the level of game they wish to play? And if you mean competitively, do you mean events like Nova, or do you mean even at local tournaments? Quantification of the context is our friend.

Context doesn't matter. A Helldrake will always be better than the FW flyers no matter if you're playing in the most competitive tournament or the most casual "friendly" game.

Now, if you meant to ask "can I get away with using this clearly inferior unit as long as my opponents all agree to make similar sub-optimal choices in list construction" then the answer depends on how sub-optimal those other lists are going to be.

And in what world is S8 suddenly weak against vehicles? A Heldrake is only S7 when vector striking them!

In every world. A single STR 8 shot doesn't even have a very good chance of killing a basic Rhino. To deal with vehicles effectively you need either high volume of fire (krak missile dev spam, crisis suits, etc) or powerful single shots (melta, demolisher cannons, etc). The Blight Drone's ability to maybe shoot at a vehicle occasionally is something you remember in case you get really desperate, not a primary strategy to rely on.

And yes, Helldrakes are only STR 7 but they get multiple hits and any anti-tank work they do is just a nice bonus on top of all the infantry they kill.

So you see no use for a cheap/light aircraft for the CSM that is made to crack vehicles or enemy aircraft?

No there isn't because even an AC Helldrake is better. And no, "light/cheap" doesn't matter because the Hell Blade isn't much cheaper and "light" just means "dies really easily". The only reason to take a "light" flyer instead of a good flyer is if you want to weaken your own list to help teach a newbie about how flyers work.

Also, I don't care about Vendettas.

You should, because you have to deal with them. Wasting points on a Hell Blade as a Vendetta counter is worse than bringing no flyers at all since your "counter" is an utterly ineffective waste of points.

A lot of bomber units only have small blasts.

And none of those are good. FW loves their tactical bombs, and I have no idea why. STR 6 AP 4 small blasts doesn't really kill anything effectively even if you manage to set up a perfect bombing run. No matter what unit they're on they're a waste of points.

I started a topic about FW Flyers that CSM can take so would you kindly keep it on topic next time?

Sorry, but that is on topic. "They're worse than a Helldrake in every situation" is the answer to your question, the fact that you wanted to hear "they're awesome, buy one of each" is irrelevant.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Exergy wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Unfortunately the FW flyers are all outclassed by the Heldrake and all the other good flyers.
Using FW CSM flyers just takes away your opportunity to use CSMs one good thing unfortunately.

The problem I think is that the FW flyers compete with FA slots. All the good stuff in the CSM codex is in the FA slot. If there was an elite or HS flyer in FW....

By "all the good stuff" you don't just mean the Heldrake do you? Because personally I'm not interested in running even one. Some of us just want to have fun, and Heldrakes don't really fit into what I think of when I think "Nurgle". I think of it more as a Iron Warriors or Word Bearers tool, but that's just me.

By all the good stuff I meant Bikes and Spawn.

Bikes are crazy good for 20 points a model, 21 points with VotLW. 2 attacks base, relentless, twinlinked bolters, T5, fast, HoW and built in cover save on top of all that marine goodness.

Spawn, MoN spawn especilly but still spawn are fast, fearless and cheap. Keep them in cover, because they ignore it, and wait/run up to tarpit something. Nothing can run away from them and very few things can kill them quickly. For 150-180 points you can tie up your opponents nasty units all game. They synergise with bikes too.