Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

'lo thar

I'm starting an IG army and am saving up to just get everything in one wham.
I'm getting 3-5 tanks and need some advice on which of the two kits to get.
As I can't get too many i was just wondering what combo works best in near all situations.
Points don't really matter as the army would probably be built around them and some Valkyries.

Any info on what works best for you as an all rounder 3 tank squadron is welcome.

Thanks, the tallest giraffe

My collecion consists of 4 standard Russes, 1 Demolisher and 2 Executioners and to be honest, I've never been able to use more than 3 in anything outside of Apocalypse. Personally, I would run squadrons of no more than 2, or even just run individual tanks if you have enough HS choices.

You can't really go wrong with the standard Russ, so I would suggest 2 backed up by a heavier variant, either a Demolisher or Executioner would be best. The Exterminator is fairly good against light armour but a Vendetta does the job better. Punishers again, aren't bad but they have a bit of a niche when it comes to targets when the Russ is a good all-rounder. Vanquishers have good anti-armour capabilities but again, Vendettas are better for this job. Best to avoid the Eradicator, doesn't compete with the other variants, same goes for the Annihilator and Conqueror.

Well as a tread-head myself I have 15 Russ :-) 8 Battle Tanks, 2 Demolishers, 2 Punishers, 2 Vanquishers, 1 Executioner, and an extra Conqueror Turret :-)

I have to say I really depends on what the rest of your army looks like. I run pretty Tank heavy and find that the Demolishers, Punishers and Executioner are the core of my lists. Their slightly higher rear armor makes the a little more resilient to infantry grenades and as I use them as close support their shorter range does not negatively effect me.

If you are planning more of a Gun Line IG list you may want to look at the Battle Tanks and the Vanquishers for their longer range.

As far as squadrons I normally deploy like vehicles together. For example 2 Punishers or 2-3 Battle Tanks. The Demolisher and Executioners seem to work well paired together as well due to the matching AP.

from my experience across the board form it, 2 vanilla russes w/Lascannon on the front make a mess of whatever you decide to point it at. 2 of these units would be brutal, especially if oine of the squads is accompanied by a Demolisher or Executioner for anti TEQ (my vote goes to Demolisher, because S10 Pieplate)

 IHateNids wrote:
2 vanilla russes w/Lascannon on the front

No. Never waste points on BS 1 lascannons.

And no, they don't really make a mess of anything you point them at. They're a joke against vehicles or TEQs and don't really kill fast enough against hordes. The only thing they're really useful for is killing MEQs, preferably without good cover or proper spacing (for example, finishing off marines shot out of a Rhino).

Tread heads unite!
If you want an all around Russ, nothing beats an Exterminator with LC and MMs. It has weight of fire. It has high Str. There's nothing it can't do. That being said, they are MUCH more effective when supported. Demolishers support them nicely, as do Hellhounds if you expand your tread horizon into the FA slots.

I've been enjoying putting a PFG DA Libby in the middle of a Russ squadron for the 4++ and twin-linked.

 Peregrine wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
2 vanilla russes w/Lascannon on the front

No. Never waste points on BS 1 lascannons.

And no, they don't really make a mess of anything you point them at. They're a joke against vehicles or TEQs and don't really kill fast enough against hordes. The only thing they're really useful for is killing MEQs, preferably without good cover or proper spacing (for example, finishing off marines shot out of a Rhino).

must just be my playstule then ,because they always seemed to kill at least their own points within their first couple of shots

 IHateNids wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
2 vanilla russes w/Lascannon on the front

No. Never waste points on BS 1 lascannons.

And no, they don't really make a mess of anything you point them at. They're a joke against vehicles or TEQs and don't really kill fast enough against hordes. The only thing they're really useful for is killing MEQs, preferably without good cover or proper spacing (for example, finishing off marines shot out of a Rhino).

must just be my playstule then ,because they always seemed to kill at least their own points within their first couple of shots

Ordnance weapons when fired make ALL other weapons fire at bs1. I really dont see how this is good as statistic are not on your side. Standard russes are best left how they are.

Its nice seeing fellow tread heads!

I will say its usually best to use up all 3 slots you have for heavy support. Once youve done so just start adding an extra russ to each squadron. But as others mentioned 2 is good, 3 is just to many for 1 slot. Its even better to keep each russ separate from the others.

Eradicators actually are good tanks, add bolter sponsons and they become a great infantry killer. In this edition a lot of units use some cheap units thats very fragile to sit in cover and hold an objective. Guard can take camo cloaks and so can space marine scouts making them extremely hard to remove. eradicator does it very well and all the heavy bolters just add wounds to make them fail their saves. This tank really makes horde armies question ruunning at this tank as av14 is hard to remove from a distance and that means this tank alone could widdle a blob down. I usualy keep this tank alone as it is strictly for infantry. A punisher may compliment this tank as it also is good for infantry but the punisher has really short range.

Most of the time when you squad russes you usually want the same tank paierd up. So to make this easier think of what roll you want the squad to do, anti infantry/light armor or heavy armor and heavy infantry and keep the squadron to that roll.

Once tank I will recommend and I have tried it and have had great experience with it is the Vanquisher with a hull lascannon and plasma cannon sponsons, add pask and this tank is expensive but is also a monster! Eliminates enemy heavy armor from a distance and knock transports out just the same. As the opponent foot slodges across the board unload a vanq cannon, lascannon, and 2 plasma cannon shots and thats a lot of s7+ all ap2 that wil also make termies question dropping infront of you. If termies are in a land raider and you pop it early those plasma cannon sponsons will really slow those termies the following turns as they try to charge your from a distance. The plasma cannons also allow you to put wounds on hordes as a normal vanq with lascannon and the vanq cannon would only put out 2 shots killing possibly 2 models a turn after all armor is gone the plasma sponsons allow you to put more wounds on your opponents forces. Yes its a rather expensive tank but I will tell you from experience, theres nothing better than knowing your opponent truly fears your heavy armor

I second the Eradicator. They are amazing at removing Xenos. As far as them bad against marines goes, I find Eradicators are lower on the target priority lists, allowing you to throw wounds on things and use that AV14 wall to really get in the way of your opponent.

3 Executioners. You can't go wrong with 15 plasma blasts.

I agree that the Basic Russ is the way to go. Dropping pie plates across the table always brought joy to my heart. Kitted out with heavy bolter all around seems to make pretty good carnage despite the ballistic skill one deal. Better to take 9 shots at BS1 than 1 shot at BS1 (since lascannons cost extra). I found that demolishers are more board specific than army specific.

I really want to like russes again, but they just feel so neutered and their firepower generally inferior to arty variants.

The basic russ isn't any good for a number of reasons, but ordnance neuters any other ability you could give it with hull or sponson weapons. And a S8 AP3 large blast isn't anything to write home about.

The demolisher still feels good run naked. S10 AP2 is good against anything except MCs, which unfortunately is a growing concern. Though cover hurts its usefulness.

The Eradicator is alright, but I can't help but feel that a colossus or hellhound do the same the job for cheaper and more effectively due to either AP3 or no scatter template.

The vanquisher has always suffered from BS3, though the Armoured battlegroup really shores up its downfalls. Otherwise its an alright tank killer, but the vendetta comes out as a better tank killer due to volume of fire and twin linked goodness.

The executioner starts to become lackluster against a properly space opponent, and putting on lascannons and plasma sponsons make it incredibly expensive.

The exterminator is nice because its cheap and works well with hull and sponson weapons without relying on blasts.

Lastly, I think the punisher came out a little better this edition, but its short range and cost make it a little less appealing.

The best options definitely exist in the armoured battlegroup with beast hunter shells vanquisher with co-ax weapons, but otherwise, I'd stick to demolishers and maybe exterminators. Hopefully the IG update will bring back a proper lumbering behemoth, and maybe a slight points reduction. Currently, the arty options provide more firepower for a cheaper cost.

Anyways, to answer the question, in a 1500-1850 list where I wanted to bring russes, I'd bring three non-squadroned demolishers and run them up with any other close range units I brought to apply as much pressure as possible.

I second the motion on Standard Russ, supported by an Executioner (maybe multi-melta sponsons, not plasma cannon sponsons though), and perhaps a Vanquisher too.

Then I'd put all that up on a Skyshield Landing Pad and tell the DA LIbby to go read a book....and then cast Prescience on something Save some points on the PFG and get a permanent 4++ for the tanks. Skyshield is not a building, and it's open terrain on top, so the tanks can deploy there. Put objectives close to the Pad but far enough for tanks to see them and blast whatever tries to get them. Late in the game bring the dudesmen onto the objectives.

 Blacksails wrote:
I really want to like russes again, but they just feel so neutered and their firepower generally inferior to arty variants.

The basic russ isn't any good for a number of reasons, but ordnance neuters any other ability you could give it with hull or sponson weapons. And a S8 AP3 large blast isn't anything to write home about.

The demolisher still feels good run naked. S10 AP2 is good against anything except MCs, which unfortunately is a growing concern. Though cover hurts its usefulness.

The Eradicator is alright, but I can't help but feel that a colossus or hellhound do the same the job for cheaper and more effectively due to either AP3 or no scatter template.

The vanquisher has always suffered from BS3, though the Armoured battlegroup really shores up its downfalls. Otherwise its an alright tank killer, but the vendetta comes out as a better tank killer due to volume of fire and twin linked goodness.

The executioner starts to become lackluster against a properly space opponent, and putting on lascannons and plasma sponsons make it incredibly expensive.

The exterminator is nice because its cheap and works well with hull and sponson weapons without relying on blasts.

Lastly, I think the punisher came out a little better this edition, but its short range and cost make it a little less appealing.

The best options definitely exist in the armoured battlegroup with beast hunter shells vanquisher with co-ax weapons, but otherwise, I'd stick to demolishers and maybe exterminators. Hopefully the IG update will bring back a proper lumbering behemoth, and maybe a slight points reduction. Currently, the arty options provide more firepower for a cheaper cost.

Anyways, to answer the question, in a 1500-1850 list where I wanted to bring russes, I'd bring three non-squadroned demolishers and run them up with any other close range units I brought to apply as much pressure as possible.

The only russes that truly suffer are the ordnance russes as sponsons dont benefit them much.

On another note russes can bring a ton of fire power and even more than most of the artillery. Yes it obviously makes them even more expensive to upgrade and give them different hull and sponson weapons but you can greatly increase the fire power. From a distance most long range anti tank weapons have little to no chance of harming a russ, lance is obviously the biggest threat and will tear a russ open but against most armies russes can take fire all day. As mentioned above I run vanqs with LC/PC's and these tanks make their points back every game. They sport a good amount of s7+ ap2 fire to threaten all targets and with the blasts will put some wounds on horde.

Artillery on av12, front and the rest being 10 makes it very fragile and pretty much forces you to put it out of los and once you do this you make it even less accurate, and thats the same if the enemy gets to close. You said the exterminator is nice as it doesnt rely on blasts which compliments its sponsons, all artillery is are large blasts that most of the time are very inaccurate.

I will give you that the manticore and colossus are nice artillery units but most of the other artillery just doesnt seem to cut it.

The hell hound compared to the eradicator is almost a fair argument but as mentioned the armor difference means a lot and with a hellhound you would be lucky to get one shot of and survive another turn to fire again. The eradicator has a much longer range and has sponsons to increase the firepower and wounds it puts on a units. Yes the blasts could scatter off but most of the time there will be some unit there to eat that pie plate.

As mentioned it depends on the role you are hoping for them to achieve with your army and really I only take side sponsons on tanks that do not fire Ordnance, that being said when it comes to Squadrons you can never go wrong with x2 Exterminators with Heavy Bolter Sponsons. With this edition leaning towards an infantry heavy meta these guys pack a good amount of dakka, have a wide range of targets including anti-air to great effect.

Get the demolisher kit, as you don't need to glue the weapons on the turret, and can easily swap them out at will. Also, it has the best guns of them all; demolishers with hull heavy flamers are the best all rounders IMO, and punishers are good at finishing off depleted units, but the executioner is the absolute best, being able to devastate whatever you point it at. In terms of your 3 russes, IMO go for 2 demolisher kits and a manticore. The battle tank kit just isn't worth your time, I'm afraid, despite the exterminator being the sexiest looking of the bunch.

Akademee wrote:
Better to take 9 shots at BS1 than 1 shot at BS1 (since lascannons cost extra).

Or you could take three shots at BS 1 and spend 20 points on something better than BS 1 heavy bolters.

Yeah, LRBTs are, by far, the worst russ variant thanks to the change from lumbering behemoth to heavy. It's not even close.

As for what's best, it's going to be either the vanquisher (despite the bad BS), or the executioner, depending on how many points you're looking to throw around. Either way, the hull weapons are lascannon and either multimelta or plasma cannons (depending on what your local meta looks like).

The punisher is also absolutely fantastic, but suffers from being a defensive weapon (thanks to its range), and it's not that likely you're going to need more defensive weapons in your guard army.

 undead flesh addict wrote:
Get the demolisher kit, as you don't need to glue the weapons on the turret, and can easily swap them out at will. Also, it has the best guns of them all; demolishers with hull heavy flamers are the best all rounders IMO, and punishers are good at finishing off depleted units, but the executioner is the absolute best, being able to devastate whatever you point it at. In terms of your 3 russes, IMO go for 2 demolisher kits and a manticore. The battle tank kit just isn't worth your time, I'm afraid, despite the exterminator being the sexiest looking of the bunch.

Executioner fails in hurting av13/14, also if you are playing a smart player he will space out a bit but I personally dont believe in the whole opponent spacing everything 2" apart but when it comes to a monstrous creature you cn even scatter terribly off.

Also the exterminator is a decent all around tank, but as I mentioned above a Vanq with LC/PC is a very deadly tank. Include pask and you have a killing machine that is a huge threat on the board. Ever since I came up with this russ I have always included one in my army. Its expensive but it indeed is a threat as it harms monstrous creatures and heavy armor alike. It also puts out a lot of ap2 to really threaten teq and meq alike and the small blasts help add wounds to horde armies.

The eradicator is not looked at by many but as Ive played more and more this edition my opponents tend to always have some sort of fragile unit that hides in cover. Add heavy bolter sponsons to increase the wounds and this tank is great for going after infantry units. Its range means night fighting turn one allows you to get a nice shot off to threaten your opponent.

Well, with the obvious exception of heavy armour

 tankboy145 wrote:


The only russes that truly suffer are the ordnance russes as sponsons dont benefit them much.

Right, we can agree on that. Though the demolisher is still alright thanks to S10 AP2 never really going out of style.

On another note russes can bring a ton of fire power and even more than most of the artillery. Yes it obviously makes them even more expensive to upgrade and give them different hull and sponson weapons but you can greatly increase the fire power. From a distance most long range anti tank weapons have little to no chance of harming a russ, lance is obviously the biggest threat and will tear a russ open but against most armies russes can take fire all day. As mentioned above I run vanqs with LC/PC's and these tanks make their points back every game. They sport a good amount of s7+ ap2 fire to threaten all targets and with the blasts will put some wounds on horde.

Well, here's the thing though. Artillery will bring more and generally better firepower for the points than russes. Look at the vanilla russ compared to the bassie. Sponsons give the russes added versatility, but the firepower isn't any better and is sometimes worse. Obviously certain russes perform roles the arty can't, like the Punisher or Executioner, but any of the plate lobbing russes have a cheaper arty version.

Now, a vanq with LC and PC is incredibly expensive. We're talking 200+ pts, and even more expensive when Pask is thrown in. You can get almost two arties for that cost, which is actually more durable in the long run as the enemy now has to chew through 6 HP instead of 3. That and I would never count small blasts as anti-horde; just about any player who knows even the fundamentals will quickly realize that maximum spacing turns small blast weapons into one wound weapons.

Artillery on av12, front and the rest being 10 makes it very fragile and pretty much forces you to put it out of los and once you do this you make it even less accurate, and thats the same if the enemy gets to close. You said the exterminator is nice as it doesnt rely on blasts which compliments its sponsons, all artillery is are large blasts that most of the time are very inaccurate.

Sure, arty is less durable. However, parking it behind everything and denying LOS or extensive cover saves will keep them relatively safe. The accuracy hit hurts, but certainly manageable, especially with the Manticore and Griffon. If the enemy gets close to either the Russ or arty, they're both dead anyways just as quickly; assaulting doesn't care if its a russ or arty, they die the same.

I will give you that the manticore and colossus are nice artillery units but most of the other artillery just doesnt seem to cut it.

Well, and I'd argue that all the arty options are more viable than most of the russ options. Really, pt for pt, most russes are not great, leaving with two or three good ones. The bassie is nice due to cheapness and nice blast, the medusa because its a 36" demolisher or 48" vanquisher (better, I might add, and for cheaper), the griffon due to its accuracy and cheapness, the colossus for armour ignoring AP3, and the manticore for raw damage.

The hell hound compared to the eradicator is almost a fair argument but as mentioned the armor difference means a lot and with a hellhound you would be lucky to get one shot of and survive another turn to fire again. The eradicator has a much longer range and has sponsons to increase the firepower and wounds it puts on a units. Yes the blasts could scatter off but most of the time there will be some unit there to eat that pie plate.

But what the hellhound lacks in armour, it gets in speed and accuracy. It is a bit of a one trick pony, and it eats up slots in the Vende-errr, FA section, so it'll likely never get taken in a competitive list. I'd still take a colossus over the eradictor for the role they're both designed to do, if only for the AP3 goodness.

I really want to like russes, I own several. But the arty options trade durability for better firepower, range, and cost. The russes get a mobility advantage, but aside from their AV14, they're not doing anything a battery in the backfield isn't doing for cheaper, allowing you to bring more units up front.

But again, if I wanted to take them, I'd first grab IA: Volume 1 2nd ed and take a pair of beast hunter shell equipped vanqs (at BS4) and take a squadron of demos and a squadron of either exterminators or executioners as the other troop choice. Then I'd load up on arty in the back field and get the best of both worlds.

Because who needs to score when you can just drown the enemy in plates.

As far as anti-infatry (of all types) goes, I've had quite good utility out of an Executioner with HBs all round. Nice mix of blast to keep your opponent spread out and normal to-hit to keep the damage rate up.

Executioner with plasma sponsons has held its weight through 3 tourneys now. It sometimes dies, but almost always makes it back or absorbs stupid amounts of fire.

Eradicator is good vs the growing xenos and is still effective even vs 3+ armor when you are firing 9 S5 shots and a large blast S6. You can kill simply through quantity of saves.

The FW vanquisher is actually decent with its TL main cannon and possible access to beast killer shells if you are armored company. S8 armorbane is pretty useful when it hits 3/4 of the time. I do think it should be AP1 though

Demolisher is ok, but i still like saving the few points with thunderers. Sure, the gun is hull mounted, but if a demolisher is immobilized you are going to have many of the same problems. Also the lower profile of the thunderer is pretty useful (either have another russ shoot over them, or hide them behind other russes if shaken/stunned).

Basic russes along with the anhialator and exterminator are all bad.

 Blacksails wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:


The only russes that truly suffer are the ordnance russes as sponsons dont benefit them much.

Right, we can agree on that. Though the demolisher is still alright thanks to S10 AP2 never really going out of style.

On another note russes can bring a ton of fire power and even more than most of the artillery. Yes it obviously makes them even more expensive to upgrade and give them different hull and sponson weapons but you can greatly increase the fire power. From a distance most long range anti tank weapons have little to no chance of harming a russ, lance is obviously the biggest threat and will tear a russ open but against most armies russes can take fire all day. As mentioned above I run vanqs with LC/PC's and these tanks make their points back every game. They sport a good amount of s7+ ap2 fire to threaten all targets and with the blasts will put some wounds on horde.

Well, here's the thing though. Artillery will bring more and generally better firepower for the points than russes. Look at the vanilla russ compared to the bassie. Sponsons give the russes added versatility, but the firepower isn't any better and is sometimes worse. Obviously certain russes perform roles the arty can't, like the Punisher or Executioner, but any of the plate lobbing russes have a cheaper arty version.

Now, a vanq with LC and PC is incredibly expensive. We're talking 200+ pts, and even more expensive when Pask is thrown in. You can get almost two arties for that cost, which is actually more durable in the long run as the enemy now has to chew through 6 HP instead of 3. That and I would never count small blasts as anti-horde; just about any player who knows even the fundamentals will quickly realize that maximum spacing turns small blast weapons into one wound weapons.

Artillery on av12, front and the rest being 10 makes it very fragile and pretty much forces you to put it out of los and once you do this you make it even less accurate, and thats the same if the enemy gets to close. You said the exterminator is nice as it doesnt rely on blasts which compliments its sponsons, all artillery is are large blasts that most of the time are very inaccurate.

Sure, arty is less durable. However, parking it behind everything and denying LOS or extensive cover saves will keep them relatively safe. The accuracy hit hurts, but certainly manageable, especially with the Manticore and Griffon. If the enemy gets close to either the Russ or arty, they're both dead anyways just as quickly; assaulting doesn't care if its a russ or arty, they die the same.

I will give you that the manticore and colossus are nice artillery units but most of the other artillery just doesnt seem to cut it.

Well, and I'd argue that all the arty options are more viable than most of the russ options. Really, pt for pt, most russes are not great, leaving with two or three good ones. The bassie is nice due to cheapness and nice blast, the medusa because its a 36" demolisher or 48" vanquisher (better, I might add, and for cheaper), the griffon due to its accuracy and cheapness, the colossus for armour ignoring AP3, and the manticore for raw damage.

The hell hound compared to the eradicator is almost a fair argument but as mentioned the armor difference means a lot and with a hellhound you would be lucky to get one shot of and survive another turn to fire again. The eradicator has a much longer range and has sponsons to increase the firepower and wounds it puts on a units. Yes the blasts could scatter off but most of the time there will be some unit there to eat that pie plate.

But what the hellhound lacks in armour, it gets in speed and accuracy. It is a bit of a one trick pony, and it eats up slots in the Vende-errr, FA section, so it'll likely never get taken in a competitive list. I'd still take a colossus over the eradictor for the role they're both designed to do, if only for the AP3 goodness.

I really want to like russes, I own several. But the arty options trade durability for better firepower, range, and cost. The russes get a mobility advantage, but aside from their AV14, they're not doing anything a battery in the backfield isn't doing for cheaper, allowing you to bring more units up front.

But again, if I wanted to take them, I'd first grab IA: Volume 1 2nd ed and take a pair of beast hunter shell equipped vanqs (at BS4) and take a squadron of demos and a squadron of either exterminators or executioners as the other troop choice. Then I'd load up on arty in the back field and get the best of both worlds.

Because who needs to score when you can just drown the enemy in plates.

Grabbing 2 artillery options over the vanq russ might give more hull points but how much will that really help you? 12,10,10 is not durable and its open topped meaning it will blow up even more easily. You're almost forced to hide the artillery back to where you are out of los and that even means you scatter the full distance. Im not sure what the average scatter distance is when you are out of Los but I had picked up a pair of basilisks cheap a while ago and hated how inaccurate they were. Once I moved them to where they could see they were gunned down easily.

Also I dont believe I said the PC blasts were just for anti horde, the idea is if your opponent plays a horde based army the PC sponsons add more wounds rather than just a vanquisher cannon and a lascannon which lacks completely. Yes your opponent my space out but I have never run into an opponent that has spaced out a maximum 2 inches apart of every model. If you play a horde army and you do the maximum 2" spacing I would have to say that it will be a very long game. Ive played in tourneys where the judges have set strict time limits on turns as well so that the game goes faster, so if your confident you can space out a whole horde army and make sure you get into your shooting and assault phase then go ahead but as its going to be a long game I dont see it going past turn 3.



Of course I will give you that a basilisk may be better than a standard russ but Im pretty sure everyone will almost agree the standard russ is bad.

The difference between the hell hound is you are likely to get one template shot off on your opponent before you die, an eradicator doesnt have to move out in the open or get within a close enough range to where more enemy fire will threaten it. or get into possible assault range of other enemy units.

I used to run manticores often in my lists but I just fail to see how effective some artillery is

 tankboy145 wrote:


Grabbing 2 artillery options over the vanq russ might give more hull points but how much will that really help you? 12,10,10 is not durable and its open topped meaning it will blow up even more easily. You're almost forced to hide the artillery back to where you are out of los and that even means you scatter the full distance. Im not sure what the average scatter distance is when you are out of Los but I had picked up a pair of basilisks cheap a while ago and hated how inaccurate they were. Once I moved them to where they could see they were gunned down easily.

Right, but six hull points at AV12 is nothing to sneeze at. Chances are there's cover involved, so they won't be dying to a stiff breeze. Also, taking out one hull still leaves you with a fully functional one, whereas 3 hull points taken off the russ eliminates it from the board.

The scatter issue is a little problematic, as the average 2D6 roll is 7", meaning a BS3 model with LOS turns that into 4". Generally speaking though, you'll direct hit a third of the time, and another third you should only stray a little and stay close enough to the target unit for some death, generally assumed to be around 50% accuracy for LOS blasts at BS3, and a little less for those without LOS. Still mitigated by proper target selection, but yeah, blasts of any type have their drawbacks through spacing and poor scatter roles.

On the plus side, losing a cheap bassie hurts less than a more expensive russ, and both are fearful of quick assault units or deep strikers.

Also I dont believe I said the PC blasts were just for anti horde, the idea is if your opponent plays a horde based army the PC sponsons add more wounds rather than just a vanquisher cannon and a lascannon which lacks completely. Yes your opponent my space out but I have never run into an opponent that has spaced out a maximum 2 inches apart of every model. If you play a horde army and you do the maximum 2" spacing I would have to say that it will be a very long game. Ive played in tourneys where the judges have set strict time limits on turns as well so that the game goes faster, so if your confident you can space out a whole horde army and make sure you get into your shooting and assault phase then go ahead but as its going to be a long game I dont see it going past turn 3.

As to your first point, spending 40pts to put a few wounds extra down against a horde/larger group of models is generally a waste of points. Its fairly easy to space out with a little practice and using a handy little ruler with some pre-sized edges of 1", 2", 3" and 6" (think a weird tetris block). You can quickly stick it around the models and move them apart. But hordes are inherently long to play by default, so the investment of time required for proper spacing isn't that much more than the time required to even more them in the first place.

Of course I will give you that a basilisk may be better than a standard russ but Im pretty sure everyone will almost agree the standard russ is bad.

Absolutely, agreed fully.

The difference between the hell hound is you are likely to get one template shot off on your opponent before you die, an eradicator doesnt have to move out in the open or get within a close enough range to where more enemy fire will threaten it. or get into possible assault range of other enemy units.

Sure, and I admitted that. Though the colossus does the eradictor's job even better with AP3 for burnt MEQ goodness, and cheaper too! But again, we come back to the russ/arty tradeoff.

I used to run manticores often in my lists but I just fail to see how effective some artillery is

Manticores are still solid and easily one of the best heavy options in the book. D3 S10 large blast every turn? Where do I sign up? The thing is, arty puts out more damage per point than russes, but russes trade that for mobility and durability. If russes were HP4 and had proper lumbering behemoth again, they'd be significantly better, as they'd truly be significantly more durable. But as it stands, bringing the same number of arty as russes saves you points meaning more scoring units or more things moving up to pressure your opponent.

Either way, I'd really, really use the IA armoured battlegroup. Beast hunter shells are the tits now that Riptides and other MCs are a regular target to see. Then bring demolishers and one or two other types with some air support and some backfield arty and have a field day.

In summation; give russes HP4, some of the options from IA in the normal codex, and a proper lumbering behemoth. Maybe a slight points reduction (5-10) on one or two of them. Now you have a reasonable tradeoff of firepower vs durability and cost vs mobility.

*EDIT* Oh, and don't forget the advantages barrage brings for hitting vehicles on side AV, IC sniping, and ignoring cover of some stuff like the ever prevalent ADL. Not an insignificant bonus.

It really depends on what you what with your list, artillery is nice but in my oppinion if left unguarded I feel like they are just easy kills for my opponent. The one thing I love about the russes is just the fact that from a distance lance and railcannons or whatever the taus high strength weapon is, is about all that really threatens the russ. With careful maneuvering a cover save has been achieved.

One reason I love using pask is more a bs 4 vanquisher is awesome and I love tank hunting with him. So far out of 2 games ive played against tau my pask vanq has single handly taken on long strike and won, even when the hammer head had a better cover save.

Again, I like russes, but remember they have to be guarded as much as arty against close range/assaulty threats.

I just find a paskquisher to be so expensive, especially compared to a longstrike hammerhead.

I dunno, I just want russes to be that tad bit better, and I hope the update next year does just that.

I would agree, I really hope they improve russes so I can effectively use them more often. Once Lumbering behemoth was lost I had to rip the sponsons off 2 of LRBT's just so I could use them more but LRBT's arent really good so they are basically collecting dust.

I would agree that artillery is better than the russes at this point and if it wasnt for me being a tanker and loving tanks I would use artillery more often but I choose not to give up on the russes hoping they will get point reductions with lumbering behemoth back.

do not do squadron unless you have a lot of point to spare

hey guys, I enjoy coming up with lists for armies, tell me what you guys think about this mech army please!

2k points worth

CCS- 50
One guardsman infantry squad-50
2x Vet squad with 3 meltas and grenadiers in Vandettas- 260
Leman Russ battle tank x2 in squadron w/ heavy flamers 1 w/ knight commander pask- 350
Leman Russ executioner x2 w/ MM sponsons- 440
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 w/plasma cannons and one Leman Russ punisher w/ Heavy flamer and heavy Bolter sponsons – 580
2 Vendetta Gunships w/ heavy bolter sponsons - 280

The battle tanks would sit back and shoot, exterminators and punisher would be closest to the enemy.