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2013/10/10 01:13:56
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled "Covert Messiah" at Conway Hall in Holborn (full details can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com).
Although to many scholars his theory seems outlandish, and is sure to upset some believers, Atwill regards his evidence as conclusive and is confident its acceptance is only a matter of time. "I present my work with some ambivalence, as I do not want to directly cause Christians any harm," he acknowledges, "but this is important for our culture. Alert citizens need to know the truth about our past so we can understand how and why governments create false histories and false gods. They often do it to obtain a social order that is against the best interests of the common people."
Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."
Was Jesus based on a real person from history? "The short answer is no," Atwill insists, "in fact he may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there's simply nothing left."
Atwill's most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. "I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts," he recounts. "Although it's been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."
How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"
Is this the beginning of the end of Christianity? "Probably not," grants Atwill, "but what my work has done is give permission to many of those ready to leave the religion to make a clean break. We've got the evidence now to show exactly where the story of Jesus came from. Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history. To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."
Atwill encourages skeptics to challenge him at Conway Hall, where after the presentations there is likely to be a lively Q&A session. Joining Mr.Atwill will be fellow scholar Kenneth Humphreys, author of the book "Jesus Never Existed."
TBH, I've always thought something like this is at least as plausible as the story presented in the Book.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2013/10/10 01:17:48
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
He says he doesn't want to cause Christians harm then in the same statement says "Alert citizens need to know the truth about our past so we can understand how and why governments create false histories and false gods."
That's funny to me.
2013/10/10 01:34:37
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
OP wrote:American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ.
How can it be such a controversial discovery, since I already have heard this crap at least half a dozen times?
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2013/10/10 01:43:49
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
I saw this earlier. I can't think of any serious scholar that believes there was no historical Jesus. This guy seems to be the Religious version of that Ancient Aliens guy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 01:44:54
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2013/10/10 01:47:18
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
Ahtman wrote: I saw this earlier. I can't think of any serious scholar that believes there was no historical Jesus. This guy seems to be the Religious version of that Ancient Aliens guy.
More importantly I can't think of any scholar (including the crazy ones) who study this subject and are completely devoid of any knowledge of Christian Interpolations in Josephus, but apparently sir Atwill is the one.
How can it be such a controversial discovery, since I already have heard this crap at least half a dozen times?
Because the people who bring it up are usually not even slightly versed in the literature of their subject and don't know that this argument was rolled out back in 1866.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 01:48:29
Ahtman wrote: I saw this earlier. I can't think of any serious scholar that believes there was no historical Jesus. This guy seems to be the Religious version of that Ancient Aliens guy.
This guy's specific argument has been presented and debunked before?
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2013/10/10 02:29:46
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
feeder wrote: This guy's specific argument has been presented and debunked before?
The idea that Jesus was created by the Roman Aristocracy is old as dirt and pretty... I don't want to be too mean so I'll just say bat gak stupid. Harsher words could be levied. It was first rolled out back in 1877 (I erroneously said 1866 earlier) by Bruno Bauer. However anyone actually versed in the history of the period, and in the history of Josephus knows that this argument is dead on arrival. All Atwill has demonstrated is that he hasn't read any of the literature on this subject.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2013/10/10 02:59:27
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
Space Marines aren't real, but there are paintings of those!
What are you talking about? Space Marines are real. I've got a ton of them. And the bastards are always whispering behind my back. Only thing keeping their disloyal arses in line is my perennial threat of feeding them to the cat.
2013/10/10 12:41:02
Subject: Re:Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/10/10 13:19:57
Subject: Re:Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
The historicity of Jesus is very well established.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 13:21:00
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2013/10/10 14:41:17
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
Well., I'm at least intersted in seeing what his "new" and "irrefutable evidence" is. If it really is new documents, that could lead to at least some debate.
However, I was also under the assumption that the "Historical Jesus" was pretty well established.
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2013/10/10 16:52:57
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: He says he doesn't want to cause Christians harm then in the same statement says "Alert citizens need to know the truth about our past so we can understand how and why governments create false histories and false gods."
That's funny to me.
That's exactly what I thought too...
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
2013/10/10 17:05:19
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
feeder wrote: Well poop. I was hoping for some good debate.
Well, debate on what? Something that has been proven wrong?
I mean, this is like saying "hey guys, the sky is orange", and then when everyone tells you that it's blue, you add "I was hoping for some good debate."
On-topic: Yeah, it's about time for another one of these to come around again.
I'm just incredibly doubtful that any magic or god business ever occurred and that the similarity between the stories of Jesus and Horus (Egyptians not Heresy) and Mithras, Krishna and Dionysus makes me wonder if plagiarism furthers such doubts.
As does a virgin birth in the less literate areas of world being the basis for a grand blood sacrifice which would help humanity back on track after the sacrifice himself declared humanity to sin in the first place.
Little orphans in the snow
With nowhere to call a home
Start their singing, singing
Waiting through the summertime
To thaw your hearts in wintertime
That's why they're singing, singing
2013/10/10 18:06:51
Subject: Re:Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
I thought that he was just an amalgamation of other religious characters that was adopted by humanity in its desire to become a major religion? At least youknow QI says so...
2013/10/10 19:28:57
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
feeder wrote: Well poop. I was hoping for some good debate.
Well, debate on what? Something that has been proven wrong?
I mean, this is like saying "hey guys, the sky is orange", and then when everyone tells you that it's blue, you add "I was hoping for some good debate."
On-topic: Yeah, it's about time for another one of these to come around again.
Not really. "jesus is real" is not an absolutely true statement like "the sky is blue" is.
Good effort though.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2013/10/10 20:16:02
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
As a theory it's way more credible than the "knocked up by a sky fairy" theory that is put about by the church.
If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. item 87, skippys list
DC:70S+++G+++M+++B+++I++Pw40k86/f#-D+++++A++++/cWD86R+++++T(D)DM++
2013/10/10 20:30:15
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
marv335 wrote: As a theory it's way more credible than the "knocked up by a sky fairy" theory that is put about by the church.
Joseph must be really gullible to believe that Mary being a virgin somehow gave birth to Jesus she was clearly getting some side cock, the guy has no sex education or understanding of female anatomy whatsoever.
2013/10/10 20:47:41
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
marv335 wrote: As a theory it's way more credible than the "knocked up by a sky fairy" theory that is put about by the church.
From the stance of history, both are nonsense, though if one were to indulge religion the later is at the least not in direct contradiction of history.
The idea that there was a Galilean Jew who preached a reformist theology in 1st century Judea is extremely plausible. That were was one named Jesus is plausible as well. The idea that Christianity sprang forth from nothingness or a random amalgamation of ideas (some not even widely known in the 1st century) is about as far from plausible as it gets.
Most historians do not comment on the alleged divinity of Jesus Christ, but they'll tell you that there most likely was someone by that name preaching and performing 'miracles' in Judea in the 1st century.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 20:48:02
Yeah, I am not even remotely a Christian, but I can believe Jesus existed a huge amount sooner than a story of him being entirely made up by "the man" in the third century. Now the instances surrounding his birth.....that's a bit fishy, er, pardon the pun.
But then again, hey I like to joke that Samson was actually "Jesus 1.0". And at least he is portrayed as the correct race for the area.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2013/10/10 21:22:43
Subject: Serious Scholar or Epic Troll? Inventing Christ.
Ahtman wrote: I saw this earlier. I can't think of any serious scholar that believes there was no historical Jesus. This guy seems to be the Religious version of that Ancient Aliens guy.