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This is such a tough choice. I once read that the numbers show the Black Mace slightly edges out the combo, but it is still a tough one. If the black mace gets a wound through on a squad of marines, it obviously will kill a lot, but that AP4 makes it unreliable to get a wound through with a lord. What is everybody's opinion on this from experience?

I take TBM and a power axe... Works like a charm.

I like to keep the BM for my DP of tzeentch

Yeah that sounds good to add the axe but that's 60 pts in weapons on one character.

I know the black mace is amaza-zing on a DP lol but I'm trying to find out if anybody has them work on lords.

Black Mace works best on Slaaneshi Lords because you don't want to waste your I6. For a T6 Lord, you're safe enough just using a power fist because you can't be one shot.

I use TBM for my Nurgle Lord biker. It's awesome. I rarely use the power axe but it has saved his bacon.

After running the numbers a bit I think I like TBM on a lord over the PF/LC combo. One of the reasons is that the paltry amount of attacks is mitigated by having a daemon weapon. Also, the cursed rule makes it only important that you get one wound through. Also, without having access to a 2+ like loyalists do, a 3+ is risky when you're getting poked at by a bunch of weaklings when you're striking at I1.
Probably the biggest thing that goes beyond the numbers is that a nurgle lord should be running with nurgle spawn, which means having to worry about a challenge every time you charge. TBM is probably chaos' best way to make being forced into a challenge actually helpful.

I prefer the BM on the biker lord mainly due to better survivability and able to easily hide. Blight grenades, Sigil of Corruption and power axe.

I would attach an unmarked Sorcerer biker (level 3 - Biomancy)... Lots of synergy plus Enfeeble works great with the BM. Endurance is really good too. Always take the spell familiar.

For a biker, I like fist and LC, lets me choose what I need.

Normally I only take the BM on a terminator lord, since my terminators have trouble vs hordes.

herpguy wrote:
After running the numbers a bit I think I like TBM on a lord over the PF/LC combo. One of the reasons is that the paltry amount of attacks is mitigated by having a daemon weapon. Also, the cursed rule makes it only important that you get one wound through. Also, without having access to a 2+ like loyalists do, a 3+ is risky when you're getting poked at by a bunch of weaklings when you're striking at I1.
Probably the biggest thing that goes beyond the numbers is that a nurgle lord should be running with nurgle spawn, which means having to worry about a challenge every time you charge. TBM is probably chaos' best way to make being forced into a challenge actually helpful.

I thought that The black maces rules were negated in challenge since you pull the models aside and basically "forget others are there"

No it's not negated in a challenge.

Dozer Blades wrote:I prefer the BM on the biker lord mainly due to better survivability and able to easily hide. Blight grenades, Sigil of Corruption and power axe.

I would attach an unmarked Sorcerer biker (level 3 - Biomancy)... Lots of synergy plus Enfeeble works great with the BM. Endurance is really good too. Always take the spell familiar.

juraigamer wrote:For a biker, I like fist and LC, lets me choose what I need.

Normally I only take the BM on a terminator lord, since my terminators have trouble vs hordes.

Hmmm I didn't think of the enfeeble + TBM. That's an amazing idea.

Yeah I prefer biker lords but I would definitely not risk a PF on a character that could be so easily doubled out.

The mace seems like its just making your Lord really expensive for not that big of an increase in killing power. As has been said, the Daemon Prince is the real holder of the Black Mace. Keep the Lord as a PF/LC for the time being, you are deadly and threaten all sorts of targets.

I had one game versus Tyranids - my BM biker Lord killed two Tyrants, a Tervigon, plus some gants and genestealers. The sheer amount of attacks wounding on 2+ circumvents the need for AP2... Then there is the inevitable toughness test which does not rely upon ignoring armor saves.

Really depends on my list, but I am to the point of not taking any Demon weapons. They are just to expensive and situational. The one time I wanted a random d6 table for Chaos was for a AP 2 Demon weapon and I didn't get one. Heck, I was hoping a d6 table for every Power and one for Unmarked. Nope. Oh well.


I would go LC+PF and use the bike for shooting.

The Burning Brand is a Daemon Weapon (if it counts) that rarely (and I mean rarely) doesn't do what I need it to do. Great piece of wargear.
But I am sure you mean the CC variety, and yes, I'm getting there also. The Black Mace holder realistically only makes into combat in 50% of the games I play anyways, and I imagine I'm more the rule not the exception. Its a lot of points to just make your Killy CC threat just a little killy-er. Is that Mace Prince or Lord not going to do the job without the mace?
I've played Flying Circus and other variants for a while now, and if a Daemon Prince makes it into combat against anything short of 10 TH/SS Terminators, you can just kiss that unit goodbye. I've had good success even against Dreadknights (just need a few wounds on them first). In NO games was I ever like "I just wish I had a BLACK MACE RIGHT NOW!!!1" He is plenty killy. Food for thought.

I refuse to use the black mace on anything that isnt a Daemon Prince, simply because of the AP4 of the weapon...

As a Daemon Prince at least you can make up for that with smash attacks and kill terminators in droves ^_^

Not if they've got storm shields. And it's not like everything has a 2+ save but then again that's why my lord also has a power axe as well - for those instances.

I always give The Black Mace to my Daemon Prince because he will kill everything with it, he even has a good chance of smashing Abbadon's face in if they were to duke it out.

The LC/PF is a perfect combination for a Lord, as you have the higher Init to shred marines into confetti, and the AP2 to bonk tougher targets on the head.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I refuse to use the black mace on anything that isnt a Daemon Prince, simply because of the AP4 of the weapon...

As a Daemon Prince at least you can make up for that with smash attacks and kill terminators in droves ^_^

I may be misreading, but you don't need to use a smash attack to make a monstrous creature's melee attack AP2. The Smash USR does that automatically, while also letting you make smash attacks to double your strength.

Your post was a bit unclear, so I apologize if I'm just telling you what you already know. I hope you don't mind my clarification.

Edit: Ignore me.......

TBM, not even just for the pure pain it can put out but for how epic you can make the conversions. its not some dinky power mace, it's THE BLACK MACE, should look like a daedric mace of badass furry.

Corollax wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I refuse to use the black mace on anything that isnt a Daemon Prince, simply because of the AP4 of the weapon...

As a Daemon Prince at least you can make up for that with smash attacks and kill terminators in droves ^_^

I may be misreading, but you don't need to use a smash attack to make a monstrous creature's melee attack AP2. The Smash USR does that automatically, while also letting you make smash attacks to double your strength.

Your post was a bit unclear, so I apologize if I'm just telling you what you already know. I hope you don't mind my clarification.

Yeah sorry, Smash being the universal rule all MCs get which makes their regular attacks AP2.

Didn't clarify XD

Exalbaru wrote:
TBM, not even just for the pure pain it can put out but for how epic you can make the conversions. its not some dinky power mace, it's THE BLACK MACE, should look like a daedric mace of badass furry.

That is really my main reason for not using the PF + LC combo. I think they're both pretty equal loadouts, but the PF + LC combo just looks dumb on everything, especially on a biker (how the heck can he drive?).

Chaos bikes have an auto pilot system just like Judge Dredd's.

 Brymm wrote:
The Burning Brand is a Daemon Weapon (if it counts) that rarely (and I mean rarely) doesn't do what I need it to do. Great piece of wargear.
But I am sure you mean the CC variety, and yes, I'm getting there also. The Black Mace holder realistically only makes into combat in 50% of the games I play anyways, and I imagine I'm more the rule not the exception. Its a lot of points to just make your Killy CC threat just a little killy-er. Is that Mace Prince or Lord not going to do the job without the mace?
I've played Flying Circus and other variants for a while now, and if a Daemon Prince makes it into combat against anything short of 10 TH/SS Terminators, you can just kiss that unit goodbye. I've had good success even against Dreadknights (just need a few wounds on them first). In NO games was I ever like "I just wish I had a BLACK MACE RIGHT NOW!!!1" He is plenty killy. Food for thought.

Yeah Brymm, that is where I am at. I look at the cost of that Mace, or the cost of a DP with the Mace and everything else I want/need on him and I just go 'Screw it... it is just not worth it. I can do this a cheaper way and not miss it.' It is why my HQ slots are a unmarked lvl 3 mastery Sorc (thought I am tempted on going back to MoS) with a bike, Sigil, Melta bomb, Force Axe, and 3 rolls on Biomancy and a MoS Lord on a Bike with a PF, LC, VotLW, and Sigil. In the same bike unit. They are killy enough, they are more survivable, and they are cheaper which means I can get more troops, equipment, vehicles, or whatever. Is a Mace+DP a good combo? Sure... but I am now looking over 300pts for a single guy that doesn't even have a unit to help take a wound or two. Then I look at my 160pt Sorc and my 170pt Lord that is making Noise Marines troops and now has FNP and see they are the same cost or cheaper than the DP+mace+MoS, ML 3, Wings, and power armor for 335pts. Then I look at that empty HQ slot and know my entire list will be better if I buy another HQ, but then I see me taking up 500+ points in HQs and seeing my list suffer for it. It is just not a win-win situation.

Sure, if you play a different God, maybe the DP+mace is better. I think Khorne is best for a DP+Mace HQ because your probably going to be taking a killy Jugger Lord with the awesome Khorne Axe of killy as your second HQ. But I think the other 3 Gods are better off with a Lord+Sorc on bikes or Terminator armor and that lord packing a PF+LC. Me? I have no real interest in making a Khorne list beyond as a mental exercise. I think I can make a pretty dang good Khorne list, or any God for that matter. But I want to play Slaanesh, so Lord+Sorc is the best way for me to go, as I see it.

I hate how expensive Chaos has become. I would guess your best bet would be running your kill all HQ into combat, while a nearly naked lord with MoS stayed with your noise marines and their Icon. Yeah it would be kicking your self in the butt for not using his high stats but you would save your opponent kill the warlord, and you could still field noise marines as troops.

As for HQ#2.... DP+Wings+Mace+Armor+MoN OR MoK would be good.

OR Lord + Bike+ MoN+PF+LC+5 Spawns with MoN Or some more bikes....