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 Colonel Cross wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Is anybody else pissed that our commander option for Kill Team is going to be a lousy Commissar? So lame :(

Lol, well I would hope that there are other options too.

I mean, Imperials have a total of 4 new commanders according to that news leak. And a commissar is at least pretty fluffy.

Chaos have to resort to being commanded by... nobody at all.

I don't quite see how commissars are fluffy for leading a squad of soldiers? Maybe hunting down a lone heretic guardsman or something? But if you could enlighten me, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.

They aren't. They never were until they started shoveling them at us in formations and Start Collecting sets. Gaunt was a rarity, a special case in all the lore previous--now it seems every Commissar is a Gaunt.

That said, we know at the very least the Tempestor Prime is one of our options. I'm guessing that the Guard will get the Commissar, Platoon Commander, and maybe the Primaris Psyker or Astropath.

Anyone telling you exactly how many of a thing each faction has access to is likely making it up. We've had nothing showing the numbers for specific factions. We just know there's 41 Commander choices and that includes "Psykers, Lieutenants, and Champions".

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Is anybody else pissed that our commander option for Kill Team is going to be a lousy Commissar? So lame :(

Lol, well I would hope that there are other options too.

I mean, Imperials have a total of 4 new commanders according to that news leak. And a commissar is at least pretty fluffy.

Chaos have to resort to being commanded by... nobody at all.

I don't quite see how commissars are fluffy for leading a squad of soldiers? Maybe hunting down a lone heretic guardsman or something? But if you could enlighten me, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.

I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.

Niiru wrote:

I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.

They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.

Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.

U02dah4 wrote:

Cyclops is fun in a catachan list and excellent anti flyer probably our best unit for it but it suffers from being unreliable. The sneaking thing works but with random range and number of shots impact can be variable and it can also hit you

I might proxy one and give it a try for fun.

It's really sounding like our best anti-armor options are all allies, which really is disheartening, a Leman Russ was one of the very first models I picked up way back in 3rd Ed when I was a kid. Guess it'll keep looking cool on my shelf, oh well.

Now I'm just thinking of how best to keep a huge horde of infantry alive: conscript+astropath screen? Bullgryns w/bruteshields+Take Cover? Couple big squads of crusaders?

 necron99 wrote:
Went to a tournament yesterday with my guard list and two out of 3 matches were against lists where most of their army was a -1 to hit (Necron tomb blade heavy list and a all bike custode list with the dude with the banner). What can we do against this stuff? I have a single hydra that I managed to forget to take with me so I back filled with mortar teams but still that would have just died first and I went second all three matches seizing on only one.

Look up Mitch Pelham's hellhound spam list. I think it's titled, "what's a hit modifier?"

RogueApiary wrote:Look up Mitch Pelham's hellhound spam list. I think it's titled, "what's a hit modifier?"

Unfortunately, Ro3 killed that list

Edit: unless you ran artemia pattern and regular hellhounds, I suppose

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.

They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.

Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.

Exactly, I'm not sure Niiru should be calling out my knowledge of the fluff after collecting guard and reading their books for over 20 years ...

TankCmdr wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:Look up Mitch Pelham's hellhound spam list. I think it's titled, "what's a hit modifier?"

Unfortunately, Ro3 killed that list

Edit: unless you ran artemia pattern and regular hellhounds, I suppose

You can still get 9 artemia. His list I think originally had 13, so it's not a massive difference in list concept. As you said in your edit, just replace four of them with normal hellhounds.

TankCmdr wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

Cyclops is fun in a catachan list and excellent anti flyer probably our best unit for it but it suffers from being unreliable. The sneaking thing works but with random range and number of shots impact can be variable and it can also hit you

I might proxy one and give it a try for fun.

It's really sounding like our best anti-armor options are all allies, which really is disheartening, a Leman Russ was one of the very first models I picked up way back in 3rd Ed when I was a kid. Guess it'll keep looking cool on my shelf, oh well.

Now I'm just thinking of how best to keep a huge horde of infantry alive: conscript+astropath screen? Bullgryns w/bruteshields+Take Cover? Couple big squads of crusaders?

You keep a huge horde of infantry alive by having a huge horde of infantry or having something that makes the opponent think twice on closing the distance to use anti horde weapons. There's not really any way to buff them across the board aside from the new prepared positions. For pure IG, esentially give up on armor and take a large amount of guardsmen and Stormtroopers.

Bullgryns seem like a good idea for pure infantry, but with no vehicles to draw the heat they're going to draw hellish amounts of anti tank fire and I think they'll drop quickly even with all the save buffs. You'd need to hide them which will leave them out of position potentially.

If it were me, I'd say Stormtroopers are key for a pure infantry list because they give you a counter punch across the board to take objectives and threaten the enemy backline, even with all the nerfs to deepstriking. Their big bonus would be the opponent has to hold things back to prepare for roughly 50 Stormtroopers dropping in with 27 plasma gun shots rerolling 1's and most of them generating extra hits on 6's. If they press the attack to smash your main line they leave themselves open to the drop, if they hang back they are then in a standoff with a 100 strong guard gunline being screened by 50 Stormtroopers. The other point to Stormtroopers is that with pure infantry you quickly hit a point where theres so much in your own lines you can't deploy comfortably and it takes forever to move.

So take something like 10-12 infantry squads rocking plasma/Lascannon, mortar teams, and a big platoon of 40-50 Stormtroopers armed to the teeth with plasma hitting across the board. This is a rough idea I hammered out how I'd play it with Valhallans. Cadians or Catachans may be the better choice for some obvious reasons, but Valhallans add a lot of insurance for morale shock and melee, two things a pure infantry list traditionally worry about. With Cadians, you could drop Yarrick, instead relying on the relic of cadia and other abilities, and then dump your extra points into more infantry or instead getting even more Stormtroopers. Theyd be my choice for pure competitive because their lascannons will hit like a train, but they'd fold to melee fast and would need some sort of help like bullgryns. For Catachans, you'd drop commissars entirely and spam as many officers with powerfists as possible as well as using Harker, straken, and possibly Marbo. They'd be strong in melee, but I worry they lack much in the shooting field, since they don't have Cadias insane buffs and lack Valhallans ability to weather fire and keep their weapons online longer.

All of the lists have a major issue hitting planes, especially Eldar. I guess there you'd just try to kill his ground element and force a tabling. That or play the objectives.



Subtle, it is not. It'd be a hell of a rude awakening to the knight+CP battery soup meta list at the very least. That much plasma will get through at least one knight and let's the lascannons stay online longer. Plus the large amount of infantry allows you to deal with screens turn 1. He definitely won't be beating you when it comes to objectives.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.

They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.

Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.

Exactly, I'm not sure Niiru should be calling out my knowledge of the fluff after collecting guard and reading their books for over 20 years ...

plenty of fluff has commisar's attached to, working alongside or even bossing around small groups or squads of guardsmen. They might be outside of the chain of command but they're still capable of influencing it, especially in small scale engagements.

 gbghg wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I mean, if you don't know that Commissars are iconic command units for the Imperial Guard, I'm not sure you're on the right forum lol.

They're not "iconic command units" to anyone except those who don't actually know the Guard. There's one iconic Commissar-Commander and his name is Ibram Gaunt. He was notable for him being an exception, not the rule.

Commissars are regimental advisors. They're morale officers, not battlefield commanders.

Exactly, I'm not sure Niiru should be calling out my knowledge of the fluff after collecting guard and reading their books for over 20 years ...

plenty of fluff has commisar's attached to, working alongside or even bossing around small groups or squads of guardsmen. They might be outside of the chain of command but they're still capable of influencing it, especially in small scale engagements.

Commissars have been an iconic command option for IG since... I mean I don't even know, since before I was seriously involved in the game, 2nd edition maybe?

Actually took a minute to take a look, and found that they actually seem to have been commonly used as leaders for both guardsman squads and rough rider squads in the original rogue trader 1st edition, which is way older than 20 years.

So yeh, commissars as iconic HQ's since before 40k was even 40k. But that's fine, I won't call you out on your knowledge any more.

I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...

.I've got a third edition rulebook that has them as an infantry squad upgrade. Seems pretty appropriate for Killteam type stuff to me.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...

Considering a bunch of novels with Guard have Commissars leading what are basically killteams? yes I would say its very fluffy. (pretty sure Cain manages to get volunteered in some of his books. I know it happens in 'Dead men walking')

I feel sorry for Yarick gaunt isnt the only famous commanding commissar

U02dah4 wrote:
I feel sorry for Yarick gaunt isnt the only famous commanding commissar

And Ciaphas Cain! He is well known for leading (in at least some meanings of the word) various specialist (or at least pretty special) infantry groups on irregular errands.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

You keep a huge horde of infantry alive by having a huge horde of infantry or having something that makes the opponent think twice on closing the distance to use anti horde weapons. There's not really any way to buff them across the board aside from the new prepared positions. For pure IG, esentially give up on armor and take a large amount of guardsmen and Stormtroopers.

Bullgryns seem like a good idea for pure infantry, but with no vehicles to draw the heat they're going to draw hellish amounts of anti tank fire and I think they'll drop quickly even with all the save buffs. You'd need to hide them which will leave them out of position potentially.

If it were me, I'd say Stormtroopers are key for a pure infantry list because they give you a counter punch across the board to take objectives and threaten the enemy backline, even with all the nerfs to deepstriking. Their big bonus would be the opponent has to hold things back to prepare for roughly 50 Stormtroopers dropping in with 27 plasma gun shots rerolling 1's and most of them generating extra hits on 6's. If they press the attack to smash your main line they leave themselves open to the drop, if they hang back they are then in a standoff with a 100 strong guard gunline being screened by 50 Stormtroopers. The other point to Stormtroopers is that with pure infantry you quickly hit a point where theres so much in your own lines you can't deploy comfortably and it takes forever to move.

So take something like 10-12 infantry squads rocking plasma/Lascannon, mortar teams, and a big platoon of 40-50 Stormtroopers armed to the teeth with plasma hitting across the board. This is a rough idea I hammered out how I'd play it with Valhallans. Cadians or Catachans may be the better choice for some obvious reasons, but Valhallans add a lot of insurance for morale shock and melee, two things a pure infantry list traditionally worry about. With Cadians, you could drop Yarrick, instead relying on the relic of cadia and other abilities, and then dump your extra points into more infantry or instead getting even more Stormtroopers. Theyd be my choice for pure competitive because their lascannons will hit like a train, but they'd fold to melee fast and would need some sort of help like bullgryns. For Catachans, you'd drop commissars entirely and spam as many officers with powerfists as possible as well as using Harker, straken, and possibly Marbo. They'd be strong in melee, but I worry they lack much in the shooting field, since they don't have Cadias insane buffs and lack Valhallans ability to weather fire and keep their weapons online longer.

All of the lists have a major issue hitting planes, especially Eldar. I guess there you'd just try to kill his ground element and force a tabling. That or play the objectives.

Spoiler:

1st Batallion-Valhallan

Company commander:mk 45, power sword

Company commander:WLT Old Grudges, Laurels of Command, Boltgun

X5 infantry squad: plasma/lascannon

X2 Ministorum Priest: power maul

X2 Astropath: pyschic Maelstrom (more likely to go off than smite and can target something aside from closest unit, plus ignore cover)

X3 Mortar HWS

2nd Batallion - Valhallan

Yarrick

Company Commander: shotgun

X5 infantry squad: plasma/Lascannon

3rd Batallion - Stormtroopers

X3 Tempestus Primes: Command Rod

X3 squads: plasma pistol, x4 plasma, X5 riflemen

X3 command squads: x4 plasma

Subtle, it is not. It'd be a hell of a rude awakening to the knight+CP battery soup meta list at the very least. That much plasma will get through at least one knight and let's the lascannons stay online longer. Plus the large amount of infantry allows you to deal with screens turn 1. He definitely won't be beating you when it comes to objectives.

Fair enough, boys before toys is always good advice. My one concern was giving up tons of kill points due to MSU with that kind of list. Guess that can be mitigated by combining squads and dealing just as much damage as I take.

I like that list a lot. I've been thinking something similar, but not valhallan. Something like:

Cadian Battalion for backfield w/ Creed and Las/plas infantry

Catachan smash brigade for pushing upfield and punching things

Scions battalion for surgical strikes/monster hunting/obj grabbing.

When I have an exact list, I'll post it.

I've been concerned about the deep strike nerf, so was considering shelving my MT, but you make a good point, and my 25 scions have consistently served me well, even coming in on later turns. Thanks!

Any thoughts on Tallarn Salamanders versus Sentinels? Looking at a small fast armor detachment to supplement a Primaris Deathwatch loadout. I have about 500 points to play with.

Also considering Devil Dogs as swap-ins when I anticipate needing the serious tank-busters.

Kill points wise its always worth reading the tourney pack. My next two GT's used capped kill points so its not so bad if you play the objectives or table but if they are uncapped or very heavy in certain missions its certainly a factor.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...

.I've got a third edition rulebook that has them as an infantry squad upgrade. Seems pretty appropriate for Killteam type stuff to me.

Ordana wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I never said they weren't iconic. I questioned how fluffy it was for them to be leading a squad of guardsmen. And it is barely mentioned as in, when a leader dies they take over. They're advisors and there for morale. They're not line unit commanders ...

Considering a bunch of novels with Guard have Commissars leading what are basically killteams? yes I would say its very fluffy. (pretty sure Cain manages to get volunteered in some of his books. I know it happens in 'Dead men walking')

U02dah4 wrote:I feel sorry for Yarick gaunt isnt the only famous commanding commissar

Mellon wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I feel sorry for Yarick gaunt isnt the only famous commanding commissar

And Ciaphas Cain! He is well known for leading (in at least some meanings of the word) various specialist (or at least pretty special) infantry groups on irregular errands.

Guys, guys, stop agreeing with me, he's been playing guard for 20+ years! Don't make the Colonel cross!

Seriously though, I've always liked commissars, I'm glad they're making a new named one. Maybe there will be some cool new stories with him in it.

Alright, it ended up making more sense to do a Cadian brigade, but here's a general jumping off point. 26 freaking CP!

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [21 PL, 500pts] ++

Regimental Doctrine: Millitarum Tempestus

+ HQ +

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 45pts]: Chainsword, Tempestus Command Rod, The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 45pts]: Chainsword, Tempestus Command Rod

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 78pts]
. 2x Scion: 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 78pts]
. 2x Scion: 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 78pts]
. 2x Scion: 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

+ Elites +

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 88pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 88pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [35 PL, 597pts] ++

Regimental Doctrine: Catachan

+ HQ +

Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken [4 PL, 75pts]

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Power fist, Shotgun

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Power fist, Shotgun

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power axe

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power axe

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power axe

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power axe

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power axe

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power axe

+ Elites +

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 28pts]: Laspistol, Power fist

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 28pts]: Laspistol, Power fist

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 28pts]: Laspistol, Power fist

Sergeant Harker [3 PL, 50pts]

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [51 PL, 903pts] ++

Regimental Doctrine: Cadian

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol

Lord Castellan Creed [4 PL, 70pts]: Superior Tactical Training, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 67pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 67pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 67pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 67pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Elites +

Astropath [1 PL, 30pts]: Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 30pts]: Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 30pts]: Laspistol

Ministorum Priest [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 47pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Autocannon

Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 47pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Autocannon

Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 45pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

++ Total: [107 PL, 2000pts] ++

Yeah with infantry guard kill points is sadly the nature of the beast. I play ITC so for me I essentially write off the "kill more" primary and accept that Reaper, the kill 2 units a turn, and something like Old School secondaries will be used against me every game.

Your goal would be to smash your opponent early on and table them for easy primary/secondary points, or alternatively against something like knights you take ground control, recon, and linebreaker and not have to worry about actually killing anything. I like your idea of the Cadian/Catachan combo, that's an interesting idea. Built correctly it could be the best of both worlds. The only annoying bit is your abilities won't overlap so Overlapping Fields of fire only affects half your infantry line for example. The infantry line' main job is to not die and knock out screening units turn 1. Everything they do after that is gravy, but they will be key for ground control and using lascannons to finish off targets the Stormtroopers couldn't.

One funny issue I ran into with the idea was that I rapidly hit a point where the Stormtroopers took up more than half my list. I wanted to take a 4th squad maxed with plasma but that makes the stormtrooper batallion 1007pts. In order to make that work I needed to make one command squad be 3 plasma and a flag, but when you're taking 55 Stormtroopers the flag may actually become useful, especially if you're dropping them in a death ball. Just an idea to keep in mind that it's theoretically possible, just in case you wanted to drop in 56 plasma shots before the regiment trait kicked in and kicks that into somewhere in the 60's

I could cut a couple psykers to load up those last two cadian squads with more Las/plasma for a stronger gunline, and I'd have fit more scions if I could, but I love stacking psychic powers on combined squads, and having lots of dispels. It's gonna take me a while to get enough infantry ready to try this, but I've got enough for a mini version now, so I'll adjust as I play test and collect what I need. Any other C&C's are more than welcome!

Having lost our capacity to make "big squad" of 20, 30, 40... guards, aren't, indeed, as said by MrMoustaffa, our little 10 men squads a drawback ? Giving up KP ?

The squad structure can be a drawback although it has pretty much always been a price of playing Guard. In ITC I find that it is usually a drawback in the first couple of rounds for scoring so you just have to learn to play around it and make sure that your games finish past the first few rounds.

TankCmdr wrote:
I could cut a couple psykers to load up those last two cadian squads with more Las/plasma for a stronger gunline, and I'd have fit more scions if I could, but I love stacking psychic powers on combined squads, and having lots of dispels. It's gonna take me a while to get enough infantry ready to try this, but I've got enough for a mini version now, so I'll adjust as I play test and collect what I need. Any other C&C's are more than welcome!

I feel astropaths are going to be borderline mandatory in this style of a list and really guard in general. The new prepared positions strat, abilities like shroudpsalm for admech, and just cover in general means that the astropaths will pay for themselves very quickly. Throw in the possibility to deny pysker abilities and do mortal wounds/provide defensive buffs they are very powerful as a force multiplier. Plus if you're smart and preplan your drops, you can set the astropaths up where you can advance them into range of a critical stormtrooper target if need be.

*Quick question since I don't have my codex on me, do astropaths really have the deny cover ability work in a 6" aura for all IG units around them that target the marked enemy unit? That's what battlescribe claims but I thought you could only give ignore cover to one friendly unit per Astropath.*

Keep in mind I've not had a chance to test this list yet, I've tested elements of it independently enough to feel it has legs, but am currently still building all the Valhallans and scions I need to complete it. It's never going to take top tier events considering it gets a slow start turn 1 but I think it will do well in local events and pickup games. That's kind of an issue pure IG has in general though. We can win most games fairly well and compete in most objectives, but we need time to win and that is a rare thing for a horde shooting army to have in a timed event.


To answer Godardc's question, yes and no. Yes the squads give up way more kill points now but even with combined squads I normally hated kill points missions. Just because the main platoon was a massive blob didn't mean you didn't have tons of smaller support units capable of giving up points running around. Even in 8th if we had the old platoon ability opponents would still farm kill points off of small characters, command squads, HWS, etc. It really doesn't feel like much of a change. It would definitely cut drops and allow us a better chance at going first, but with the way morale works only Valhallans would be able to use such massive units without losing dozens of men to morale shock.

On the other hand, being able to take individual squads for troop slots means guard can spam detachments with hilarious ease. It means we're drowning in CP, and whereas before a single guard troop slot could cost a few hundred points and contain more models than the opponents entire list, now we can field a whole detachment for what most armies spend on a single squad.

This is a big deal and honestly one I feel GW screwed up on. Yes the platoon was a weird exception to the rule of army building, and yes it took a bit to understand as new players, but it was vital to balance IG's stupidly cheap units. It's what kept conscripts in line even at 3ppm, would have kept IG from being such a cheap support option for CP, and fit the flavor of the army. Keeping vets as elites and folding conscripts back into the platoon would've let us keep conscripts at 3ppm and meant there was no issue with 4ppm guardsmen either. That's because then your choice for filling a batallion is either 120pt platoons, or small 50pt five man Scion squads, which would only be useful for CP and maybe a cheeky objective grab. Heck you could possibly even make vets troops again considering they cost 150% the cost of an infantry squad for 0 benefit as a chaff/screen unit. Not only does that tone down the "loyal 32" malarky, it also reigns in IG's crazy ability to wrack up CP. TL;DR GW bring back platoons and kill the infantry squad as a stand alone unit, and thank me later. I accept payment in tonks and FW models. I absolutely promise not to abuse Valhallan 50 men combined squads with X5 plasma/Las only losing one model to morale a turn

Back on topic, playing with infantry essentially means that no matter what you do, kill points are an uphill battle. It's an inherent weakness we've always had as far as I'm aware, no different than how custodes lack cheap troops to hold objectives or how knights struggle in many matchups because all they have are super heavy vehicles and baby super heavy vehicles. It's something that is definitely an issue but as long as you play with objectives and don't solely rely on kill points you can learn to play around it. I wish kill points were done X-Wing style where you count the pts value of the unit destroyed, with half awarded for heavily damaged large units/models, but that would involve math and that's hard.

I would have said the opposite about astropaths in this list you make it harder to shoot one infantry squad i target the others

U02dah4 wrote:
I would have said the opposite about astropaths in this list you make it harder to shoot one infantry squad i target the others

I wouldn't bother with defensive spells like pyschic barrier. All I would want would be ignore cover and something like smite or pyshich maelstromFor 36pts that's still a steal.

I've found defensive spells to be a mixed bag. Really, they just cause your opponent to shoot something else, so you should use them on units that they don't want to ignore. Bullgryns are the classic example, and superheavies would be, if they couldn't be shot off the board turn one much of the time anyway.

Still, if you play with combined squads, you can build a really durable unit for holding forward objectives. Of course, at that point, it's easier to just buy more infantry.

U02dah4 wrote:
Killing a 3++ Knight in a single turn as Guard is pretty much mathematically impossible as far as I can tell without doing something silly like going 100% armor.

Allow me to quote my post a few pages back.

1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).

2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).

3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.

3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.

7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.

9. 3++ knight is destroyed.

10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.

The end.