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I am completely new and have just started painting my Thousand Sons... after the initial primer in black and base coat in blue, I corrected some of the detailing in abaddon black.

After around 20 minutes I decided to put the wash on the blue, and as I finished painting the wash on it became apparent that the abaddon black hadn't dried and I have ruined all the blue as the wash blurred the abaddon black all over the model...

How long generally should I leave a model to dry before wash?

ALSO!

Please check out my thread on Prospero Spireguard if you have missed it:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558059.page

Regards,
Op

Washes do take longer to dry due to the thick pooling, so I tend to leave it for hours or a full day. I always have other projects to work on so it doesn't bother me. Best to err on the side of caution as you've seen what can happen if you try to soon. If you're in a rush, you could get a blow dryer, some people do that to speed it up substantially, from hours down to minutes iirc.

I'm with Yonan, I just sit around and work on my other stuff while I wait for stuff to dry. I typically rotate through about 5-6 models on a given painting session so by the time I'm done with the one before it the model is dry again. Anytime I do a wash I typically wait a couple hours or call it a night after that. Another thing that might help is just have a room fan blowing towards your area on low, that way it helps provide a little breeze to the models and also helps get rid of fumes.

Thanks guys, it wasn't the wash I was waiting to dry though, it was the base coat of abaddon black that seemed to not have dried after a while, dried much more slowly than the blue base I used. I am doing one models at a time right now, because I really am a beginner and so far it looks very amateur. When I get better with my techniques certainly I'll do batch painting and allow things to dry properly


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So far I am practicing on the 3 model / pack chaos space marines that just come in three parts... waiting until I get better to use this colour scheme on the real Thousand Sons, but here's a small picture of my first attempt (this is the model where to black ran into the blue wash)

Looks good for first attempts man, just keep practicing and learning. We all did it, and we all got better! I remember the first time I used a wash, I pretty much destroyed the model and had to restart from scratch. >.<

I find that wiping a bit of wash off the brush can improve control a lot.

 Opera wrote:
How long generally should I leave a model to dry before wash?

With moderately decent lighting, I find it pretty easy to tell when paint has dried, just by sight. If I'll be doing more vigorous brushwork over the top (drybrushing, or the like), I may give it a bit of extra time, but very rarely would it take even a full hour for a coat of paint to dry (much longer to cure, of course, but "dry to the touch" is good enough to paint over). Granted, some of that may be a product of painting primarily with rather dilute mixes, which dry more quickly (more water, less acrylic medium).

it can happen even when the paint appears to be fully dry.

all the acrylic mediums put into washes can eat at freshly dried paint.

let the model dry for a half hour to 1 full hour under a desk lamp before washing IMO.

That's... just not how acrylics work, kb305. Once dry, they can be stripped with harsher (comparatively, at least) solvents, but they don't ever become water-soluble, again. More acrylic is just more acrylic - it's not a solvent. It's possible to misjudge the level of dryness (potentially breaking a skin over still-wet paint, in thick applications), but a water-based acrylic wash won't ever "eat at" underlying paint. Unless talking about stronger solvent-based washes (oils or enamels), the worst-case scenario is the OP's issue - wet paint and wash blending together, which suggests that the paint was still decidedly wet.

 oadie wrote:
That's... just not how acrylics work, kb305. Once dry, they can be stripped with harsher (comparatively, at least) solvents, but they don't ever become water-soluble, again. More acrylic is just more acrylic - it's not a solvent. It's possible to misjudge the level of dryness (potentially breaking a skin over still-wet paint, in thick applications), but a water-based acrylic wash won't ever "eat at" underlying paint. Unless talking about stronger solvent-based washes (oils or enamels), the worst-case scenario is the OP's issue - wet paint and wash blending together, which suggests that the paint was still decidedly wet.

water is a universal solvent, im not sure what youre rambling about. acrylic drying retarder and other mediums found in washes will attack freshly dried acrylic paint even more so.

edit- it wont necessarily cause it to become water soluble again but it can cause the fresh paint to bubble and do other weird things.

It depends on how much paint and how thick or thin it is. Thicker paints take a lot longer to dry. Small amounts of paint or well thinned paint will dry extremely quickly.

Generally I find if I work on 5 infantry models at a time the first one will be completely dry by the time I get back to it. If it's just a small detail touch up it usually dries in under a minute.

15 minutes should be long enough for any kind of Citadel acrylic to dry. Washes, 'Ardcoat, texture paint, etc takes much longer to dry.

well depending on where you live it shouldnt be too long, im in southern/eastern ontario and it only take up too 20 mins after even a thick wash

I have heard that many tabletoppers have a wash problem

 oadie wrote:
That's... just not how acrylics work, kb305. Once dry, they can be stripped with harsher (comparatively, at least) solvents, but they don't ever become water-soluble, again. More acrylic is just more acrylic - it's not a solvent. It's possible to misjudge the level of dryness (potentially breaking a skin over still-wet paint, in thick applications), but a water-based acrylic wash won't ever "eat at" underlying paint. Unless talking about stronger solvent-based washes (oils or enamels), the worst-case scenario is the OP's issue - wet paint and wash blending together, which suggests that the paint was still decidedly wet.

Yeah, the GW shades will absolutely re-wet themselves. I have a whole weathering technique based on that fact - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLVOV5jVlLw. Water won't do it on its own, but put a thick layer of shade on top of a dry layer of shade and you have to be very careful to not disturb the original layer.

Well, some tricks & tips:

-Always shake your paint/wash very, very well before using to really mix the pigment & medium.
-Inks tend to dry a lot faster when thinned a little bit. Only use water as acrylic thinner is usually rather milky and will ruin the transparency. Preferably use demineralized water as it dries faster has zero risk for any white marks. Costs nothing as you only need the cheap kind used for ironing clothes. ^^
-When using washes, it's always recommended to seal your model with spray varnish before and after applying them. This is to protect any underlying- and subsequent layers.
Use gloss varnish as a 'before' coat if you want the wash to run more into the recesses, and satin varnish if you want a slightly thicker coat in case you want to use it more for colour toning. To seal it up I like to use satin varnish as it leaves a nice sheen. Not too shiny, but not too matte either as matte varnish can really dull down colour variation.

BTW - Am I the only painter here who keeps a hair dryer next to his work bench to speed-dry coats so that I can work faster?

I've thought about that a lot but I'm afraid of pushing paint around. ^^

kb305 wrote:


water is a universal solvent, im not sure what youre rambling about. acrylic drying retarder and other mediums found in washes will attack freshly dried acrylic paint even more so.

edit- it wont necessarily cause it to become water soluble again but it can cause the fresh paint to bubble and do other weird things.

I'm sorry what? Water is not a solvent to acrylic paint in the slightest.



There is no such thing as a universal solvent. Because being defined as a solvent kind of depends on the solute in question. not everything dissolves in everything... (if it did... how come we're living on land right now? surely it will have dissolved in the universal solvent that is 70% of the planets surface?! - see how silly it sounds?)
Acrylic does not dissolve in water. At All! So I don't really get what your saying?

Wet acrylic can be diluted with water.. but there is not any dissolving going on there.

Hello again all thanks for the information... I think next time I will have to apply a gloss varnish before using each wash...

I repeated the process, this time I primed using chaos black, left for several hours... then I painted the parts of the model I wanted to be blue using macragge blue, taking great care to not make mistakes.

This time I didn't use any abaddon black afterwards and left the model for another few hours to dry. Then I applied my wash, drakenhof nightshade, carefully to the areas of blue I wanted to give the effect to. Even leaving to dry this long it seems like I have areas of black running into my blue. Could this be the drakenhof nightshade significantly darkening smooth areas somehow (shoulderpads etc)? Or is it reacting with the primer and dislodging some black paint?

applying blue wash onto blue paint, and your getting black running into the blue?
Theres no black there to run into it. Are you sure its not just a dark blue hue? like the shading part of applying a shade?

If you dont want any darkening... dont use a shade (gw name for a wash) as thats kind of all they actually do maybe you want a glaze instead?

 Dullspork wrote:
BTW - Am I the only painter here who keeps a hair dryer next to his work bench to speed-dry coats so that I can work faster?

I worry that May make the wash dry weirdly.

 Opera wrote:
Hello again all thanks for the information... I think next time I will have to apply a gloss varnish before using each wash...

I repeated the process, this time I primed using chaos black, left for several hours... then I painted the parts of the model I wanted to be blue using macragge blue, taking great care to not make mistakes.

This time I didn't use any abaddon black afterwards and left the model for another few hours to dry. Then I applied my wash, drakenhof nightshade, carefully to the areas of blue I wanted to give the effect to. Even leaving to dry this long it seems like I have areas of black running into my blue. Could this be the drakenhof nightshade significantly darkening smooth areas somehow (shoulderpads etc)? Or is it reacting with the primer and dislodging some black paint?

Drakenhof Nightshade is not just blue - it's blue-black. Using it over blue will significantly darken that color. Used in enough quantity it will turn black.

Do not gloss varnish before you wash. It will make it hell for the wash to do its work.

Your original question seems to be lost here. To answer that just let your models dry more, between each stage. It seems you are priming by hand which might be an issue. Not only that but you are priming by hand with paint, not primer.

First step, go buy a can of black spray paint (not GW, unless money is no issue, most use Krylon, or cheap walmart brand, both work great).

After the models have been properly primed (paint alone does not stick well to plastic/metal/resin) you will find your paints will stick much better. If you need to touch up the model after priming, use imperial primer an let it dry thoroughly (1 hour ish) before starting your base colour. If the primer isn't fully dry the paint on too will take longer to dry and then a wash will just lift it all and mix it as you described.

TLDR: wait a little longer between steps and you'll have no problems. Ignore most of the solvent debate going on, it isn't really applicable.

 sing your life wrote:

 Dullspork wrote:
BTW - Am I the only painter here who keeps a hair dryer next to his work bench to speed-dry coats so that I can work faster?

I worry that May make the wash dry weirdly.

No need to worry, its incredibly common practise. Works just fine on a low heat setting, or a high heat setting from a bit farther away. Speeds up waiting for paint layers to dry about 1000 times. I would say its kind of stupid to not have one; you could get a cheap travel hair dryer for under £5 in Asda. Its not expensive, especially when considering the price of the models we work with.

If you apply the paint too thickly however it will cause it to dry funny, with a skin over the top, however this is not the hairdryers doing; it would be the painters fauilt for applying paint about 100 times too thick!

For the OP, yes use a primer, brush on is okay, but paint is not primer. Sprayed on is better in pretty much every aspect.
For brush on, try acrylic gesso, white or black, your choice, mix them for grey, add paints for colours.
For spray on, find your nearest car body work maintenance supply store, In the UK that is usually Halfords chain of stores. And get some standard primer (not high build, filler primer or any thing like that, just straight primer.) It usually comes in grey, white or beige. Black primer is something that tbh only GW advocate. Its not a good idea if you actually want a bright colour anywhere on the figure.
Black mutes everything that goes over the top of it to be dull and dingy. White gives the brightest colours, and grey is a happy medium.
the reason GW suggest black so often is because for a beginner painter, if you miss a spot in deep recesses of the model, and its black, its okay, looks like shadowing as opposed to a white bit beaming through from the depths of the figure. That is the only reason I can think of to use black primer EVER. Even for painting black, grey primer allows for more control over the shading.

I'm convinced that you don't actually have a problem with black running into the wash, and that infact its just how the wash is. What its supposed to do. And that your probably using it thinking otherwise. Applying it too heavily will give a very dark result, did you let it pool up really thickly in all the recesses? Try using less, more precisely than just dousing the model in wash, and then use the brush after wiping the paint off it, to wick up any excess wash before its dry.

Using gloss varnish before every layer of wash is a bit of a waste of time, and adding unnecessary layers of paint, that will gum up details. Only reason to need a coat of varnish is for using paints that bleed, or are based with something that can damage the underlying acrylic layers. So thats pretty much reserved for Oil paints, real Candy colours (dyes suspended in lacquer - not glazes or acrylic), Maybe enamels too, or any alcohol based paints.

 Opera wrote:
Thanks guys, it wasn't the wash I was waiting to dry though, it was the base coat of abaddon black that seemed to not have dried after a while, dried much more slowly than the blue base I used. I am doing one models at a time right now, because I really am a beginner and so far it looks very amateur. When I get better with my techniques certainly I'll do batch painting and allow things to dry properly

I'll also recommend batch painting for new painters because waiting is frustrating! (:

Don't be surprised if different paints behave differently. The worst are red and yellow, which tend to be transparent. Unless you have a tournament this weekend (: there's nothing wrong with painting only one layer on each of your figures one day, and painting again tomorrow.

BTW, You might want to try a brown wash on the gold, and, next time, drybrush metal guns first. Drybrushing small areas takes some practice. Or use this as an opportunity to paint the edges of the gun greyish (with the side of your brush).

I don't see any problems with your photos. Perfectly fine for tabletop.

HairySticks wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Dullspork wrote:
BTW - Am I the only painter here who keeps a hair dryer next to his work bench to speed-dry coats so that I can work faster?

I worry that May make the wash dry weirdly.

No need to worry, its incredibly common practise. Works just fine on a low heat setting, or a high heat setting from a bit farther away. Speeds up waiting for paint layers to dry about 1000 times. I would say its kind of stupid to not have one; you could get a cheap travel hair dryer for under £5 in Asda. Its not expensive, especially when considering the price of the models we work with.

If you apply the paint too thickly however it will cause it to dry funny, with a skin over the top, however this is not the hairdryers doing; it would be the painters fauilt for applying paint about 100 times too thick!

For the OP, yes use a primer, brush on is okay, but paint is not primer. Sprayed on is better in pretty much every aspect.
For brush on, try acrylic gesso, white or black, your choice, mix them for grey, add paints for colours.
For spray on, find your nearest car body work maintenance supply store, In the UK that is usually Halfords chain of stores. And get some standard primer (not high build, filler primer or any thing like that, just straight primer.) It usually comes in grey, white or beige. Black primer is something that tbh only GW advocate. Its not a good idea if you actually want a bright colour anywhere on the figure.
Black mutes everything that goes over the top of it to be dull and dingy. White gives the brightest colours, and grey is a happy medium.
the reason GW suggest black so often is because for a beginner painter, if you miss a spot in deep recesses of the model, and its black, its okay, looks like shadowing as opposed to a white bit beaming through from the depths of the figure. That is the only reason I can think of to use black primer EVER. Even for painting black, grey primer allows for more control over the shading.

I'm convinced that you don't actually have a problem with black running into the wash, and that infact its just how the wash is. What its supposed to do. And that your probably using it thinking otherwise. Applying it too heavily will give a very dark result, did you let it pool up really thickly in all the recesses? Try using less, more precisely than just dousing the model in wash, and then use the brush after wiping the paint off it, to wick up any excess wash before its dry.

Using gloss varnish before every layer of wash is a bit of a waste of time, and adding unnecessary layers of paint, that will gum up details. Only reason to need a coat of varnish is for using paints that bleed, or are based with something that can damage the underlying acrylic layers. So thats pretty much reserved for Oil paints, real Candy colours (dyes suspended in lacquer - not glazes or acrylic), Maybe enamels too, or any alcohol based paints.

For drying layers of paint, the hairdryer is fine.
for washes he's right actually. you can easily blow the wash out of the recesses where it's pooling and make a giant mess. even subtle disruption to the wash as it dries is not optimal.

try sticking the mini under a 70 watt light bulb. it speeds it up nicely with no chance to wreck anything.

Never had that problem yet, If you apply a wash that thickly I usualy find it dries glossy, would rather go with 2 or 3 thin layers for a finer result. And dont actually hold the min i right infront of the hair dryer... use some common sense and hold the mini a reasonable distance out so as not to burn it or as you say blast the paint around (which shouldn't be so thick).

kb305 wrote:

For drying layers of paint, the hairdryer is fine.
for washes he's right actually. you can easily blow the wash out of the recesses where it's pooling and make a giant mess. even subtle disruption to the wash as it dries is not optimal.

try sticking the mini under a 70 watt light bulb. it speeds it up nicely with no chance to wreck anything.

First thing: You probably shouldn't be washing so heavily that it's pooling that much.
Second thing: If you are washing that thickly, you can always bring the dryer back away from the model to keep it from blowing too hard.
Third thing: See first thing.

dilute the wash with acrylic mediums. it becomes even more transparent. it pulls to areas where it's applied thickest as it dries. I can apply a fairly heavy layer of it with no fear. comes out perfect every time.

LOVE army painter washes.