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Having played nearly every army in the game now (albeit some more extensively than others) I have come to regard Space Marines as being shamefully outclassed in assault. I am currently batting around a few ideas to remedy this and I'm painting up some Assault Marines to put to the test in my next few games but I would like to hear from the community as well.

What have been your best successes with Assault Marines in 5e/6e. Your biggest failures?

In general what do you think of the Assault Marines and are they commonly used (how often use them & how often do you face them).

I appreciate all the feedback

My feeling is that Marine Assault elements make for great counter attack or goalie squads, but not outright beat sticks.

Any space marines or just c:sm?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Any space marines or just c:sm?

Really anything other than Blood Angels or Space Wolves (those two armies are uniquely focused on CC and have a completely different approach).

Assault marines are terrible. Vanguard are equally bad. For cc and c:sm, there's TH/SS Termies (which are worse now than they were in 5th) and Honor Guard. Both would need to be rolling out of a LR to be viable. They're decent (especially with a good cc HQ) and the best you'll get in the codex. But you're better off doing what marines do best rather than trying to make a non-cc army play a role they're bad at.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Assault marines are terrible. Vanguard are equally bad. For cc and c:sm, there's TH/SS Termies (which are worse now than they were in 5th) and Honor Guard. Both would need to be rolling out of a LR to be viable. They're decent (especially with a good cc HQ) and the best you'll get in the codex. But you're better off doing what marines do best rather than trying to make a non-cc army play a role they're bad at.

I would argue that TH/SS terminators are even better now. Remember when every power sword, lightning claw and force weapon wielding chump running around the table ignored armor? Now, at the very least, they're striking simultaneous with everything other than MCs, Boneswords, CSM Relics and some eldar that will ignore their 2+... and then, they're sitting on a 3++.

The statement that ASM and VV are 'terrible' is a massive exaggeration. They are never going to be able to go toe-to-toe with dedicated CC unit, but that's what you have TH/SS and huge amounts of shooting to deal with.

ASM are best using their mobility to pick their targets, hunting stragglers or weaker units, who they will then proceed to tear apart. Using them requires subtlety and finesse, they are not meant for the same roles as the slow, low-volume-of-attacks termies, so direct comparison is somewhat misleading.

I find that Assault Marines just get the feth beaten out of them if you go looking for trouble. I have had most success with them as goalies as Minigun mentioned.

Something along the lines of hiding them in cover near your objective hugging Tac squad to counter charge in.

I say most success.. note that doesn't mean much success.

I find that in a C:SM list there are better ways to handle an assault situation.
1, assault terminators with TH/SS in a LRR with Lysander.
2, moar gunz!

If anyone reads many of my posts they will notice a recurring trend.. drop pods. I sue them to block advancing assault armies.

Ignore the pod and have Str5 large blasts in your deployment zone. Or spend a turn or two to pop em, either way, that gives me more time for my gun line to pick the assault elements off.

It's gotta be said, I haven't had my gun line assaulted since I started dropping empty Deathwind pods in anyone's deployment zone. It's particularly devastating to Tyranids too as their MC's *must* divert, meaning that if their swarms keep advancing they risk running away from the synapse bubble. Strategic placement can make it near impossible for a TMC to make it to the pod.

I am still a stickler for the IF chapter tactics as well, coupled with TFC's and Devastator squads, Bolter Drill is really useful. I'm planning to also try out the 3rd coy advanced Bolter Drill, I believe that it could be horrifically brutal (re-roll all missed to-hit and to-wound rolls at half range from what I have heard).

 Paradigm wrote:
They are never going to be able to go toe-to-toe with dedicated CC unit,

This is why they are terrible. Marine players pay a premium for assault marine type squads. There is no reason they should auto-lose to cheaper xenos assault units. If we wanted to pick on grots we can just use chainsword shotgun scouts in a speeder or tactical marines.

Crusader squads along with a chaplain and a beefy captain/CM now thats packing a punch and its a troop choise, not to mention LRC as dedicated transport.

 phatonic wrote:
Crusader squads along with a chaplain and a beefy captain/CM now thats packing a punch and its a troop choise, not to mention LRC as dedicated transport.

Oh yes, and how much does it cost, I'd say starting at 600-700 points?

The problem is that you have to pay the HQ and/or transport tax to make a really worthwhile assault unit. Sure, Assault marines will eat guardsmen or firewarriors for breakfast, but anything with power weapons and good armor is going to stop them dead on their tracks.

I play Space Wolves so I have the Grey Hunters, who hold their own pretty well in CC against anything basic. Throw a specialized assault unit against them and they are toast. Wolf Guard Terminators have the staying power but are expensive and lack the mobility (so there's the Land Raider tax). Bloodclaws/Skyclaws need the HQ to be viable and the former need the LR as well. Thunderwolf Cavalry is just overall super expensive, but they will wreck anyone's day when they make contact. They are still pretty expensive wounds (25 pts per wound without any options).

Surely nobody plays in a vacuum, so your meta has a big impact in the matter. In a strictly shooty meta without any real assault elements, Assault Marines can have a field day if the survive until contact. But in a more assault oriented meta they might become nothing more than a speed bump.

I like my Assault marines and Vanguard Vets are one of the only units in the game that can Assault out of Deep Strike. I think both units need to be in 10 man units if your only fielding 1.

If your building your list around them, I would go 1-2 squads at 10 men and then combat squad the rest. Just remember you have to have an equal number of guys on the table as you do coming in from Reserve. If your just using them because you like the figs or want to try something different, go with a 10 man squad. To be honest and in the case of Vanguard Vets, I don't consider them better than Terminators. But they are not that inferior either. You can easily over load Vanguard Vets with equipment to make them crazy expensive (Say 10x VV with 10x SS/TH, 10x Grav Pistols, and Jump Packs for 770pts), but if you show a little restraint and play the system some, you can make them very effective and better offensively than TH/SS Terminators due to Hammer of Wrath and a ranged attack that the Terminators lack. Start throwing in Power weapons instead of Fists and Hammers that get an extra attack with a pistol and Melta bombs and your unit is reasonable priced that can effect a lot of stuff.


Single 10 man squad...
10 vets- 395pts
3x SS, 3x PF, 2x PA, 2x Plas/Grav (on PA guys), 2x Melta Bombs (on PA guys), Jump Packs (Sarge has SS/PF)

Your Vets should be going after other Elites, and a 10 man squad with a couple of SS/PF in the front to take Overwatch fire with a couple of Power Axes and the rest normal guys to soak wound works out pretty decent. Throw a couple of Grav/Plasma pistols in there on Power Axe guys and go to town. And yes, I am taking a risk on losing a PF/SS guy from Overwatch fire, but I feel I need a SS to protect those Fists since they are striking last in CC and to prevent them from being sniped out.



Single 10 man Assault Squad used to fight normal troops...
10 marines- 210pts
2x Flamers, Vet Sarge with Power Maul and Melta Bomb

My assault Marines DS in and shoot, then next turn Hammer of Wrath in the Assault to get those extra attacks. I agree they are not a unit to tackle a healthy Elite CC unit, they should be going after troops. A option to Combat Squad them up is to put both Flamers in one unit and the Sarge in the other, but I think keeping them as a 10 man unit works best. The Maul is really effective due to 4 attacks on the Charge at Str 6, AP 4, and Init 4. It is a pretty good troop killer and Marines don't even like it. Avoid MCs and Dreads like the Plague, but don't be afraid of going after a vehicle with the Melta Bomb. The lack of Assault marines being able to shoot up vehicles with something like Melta guns hurts, and you can use Plasma pistols instead, but I have terrible luck and always roll those damn 'Get Hot!' ones and kill my guy.

You really are spending points on a troop killer unit, and a lot of people do not find that satisfactory when you can roll in with Bikes and make a Death Star out of them, still be effective at assault and get Hammer of Wrath, and have relentless for Grav guns and Plasma guns. You are paying more points for less troops, but they are very effective and even more survivable with the built in +5 Jink and T5.

Then you look at a Land Speeder that can have a multi-melta and a Typhoon Missle Launcher and be able to DS in and gets all of the fun stuff with Jink and skimmer rules as a heavy weapons platform and it is hard to beat that amount of firepower for 85pts a speeder. If your a shooty list or have a certain Chapter Doctrine (like Flamecraft or Bolter Drill), these are probably the better (and cheaper) unit than Bikes or Assault marines. Though speeders have no CC ability what-so-ever, Bike or Assault Squads can't compete with a unit of Speeder's firepower.

Then you add in your air power is in Fast Attack and Assault marines are really left by the wayside. There are just better units in FA than Assault marines, and better Codexes than the Vanilla Codex to make use of them (Blood Angels making them troops). People like me still use them because I am a old school player and like my Assault Marines, but for a new player starting out or someone looking to expand their army, you have to /really/ want to use them. I wouldn't run them in a Tourney list, for example.

Yeah, I know this doesn't really give you the stories you want, but I feel this is the best way to use them if you do use them. Good Luck!

 En Excelsis wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Any space marines or just c:sm?

Really anything other than Blood Angels or Space Wolves (those two armies are uniquely focused on CC and have a completely different approach).

Two things:
One. the space wolves they arent focused on CC , they are the masters on close quarters (till ninjan stars throwers eldars ) a diferent thing, the diference, they have all kind of buffs to make sure to stay in the line, shoot rapid fire, and suvirve the charges if the enemy survivie, thats why they can have a secondary special weapony instead a heavy weapon, versality and mobility over brute power, the grey hunter control the mid field shootin and huging cover, it can be mistaken the fact tha they have the cc weapon and the pistol, as the counter attack rule, and other juicy stuff, but is for to mantain the line, shoot then recive the charge, always on cover if possible to control the gunfire.
And two: Sinergy, you arent going to find a mosnter unit on cc that could fight against the hole universe by his own, as example, the grey hunters against a dedicated cc unit suffer the lack of the rules or special weapons, even with the mark of the wulfen or the power weapon they can take, a blood angels charge with furous charge and hammer of wrath and a sgt with power weapon, the wolves cry, but to make the things more balanced, put sinergy to the unit with a wolf priest, make them fearless and give them PE, and you have a unit that could handle on CC perfectly.

Dont try to break your head as everyone does, to find the magic unit that cost only 10 points and make magic on the table (that leave it to the grey knigths on 5th, and ward sniffing warp dust) as the dark angels show it, sinergy is the key, a proeper Ic, as a chaplain or captain, and some items, as a powe weapon or relic, or any gear to get a special rule, and then use skill to make work your assault unit, instead of making a hole point economy...

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
They are never going to be able to go toe-to-toe with dedicated CC unit,

This is why they are terrible. Marine players pay a premium for assault marine type squads. There is no reason they should auto-lose to cheaper xenos assault units. If we wanted to pick on grots we can just use chainsword shotgun scouts in a speeder or tactical marines.

Well said. I think people forget these things sometimes because they want to like a unit too much. Being good at something that everything else is better at doesn't make a unit good after all.