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I was talking with a friend who plays CSM last night. We were talking about the codex and also talking about the Black Legion supplement. While it doesn't change a lot of things, it does provide some options for different traits, artifacts, and chosen as troops by default. The only drawback that stood out to me is VotLW being a required upgrade.

So while the changes are minor - why would a CSM player NOT take a list that uses the Black Legion Supplement?

Loss of the relics from the Vanilla book, having to purchase Votlw might be a few

And because according to the ultramarine movie, black legion go down easier than guardsmen :-p...

It's a ruleset that could be made into a 4 page upgrade. It provides nothing else useful. While I have run it, I only do it because sometimes I've already got VOTLW on my guys and might as well take a Bringers of Dispair upgrade on my termies.

The best thing it does, by far, is let you take chosen as troops and use a daemon weapon on a vanilla lord, which makes it play like the older CSM book.

 juraigamer wrote:
It's a ruleset that could be made into a 4 page upgrade. It provides nothing else useful.

That "nothing else useful" is why it's a product. The supplement books aren't produced for rules they contain. They're produced to sell all that setting stuff. They just also contain a few rules.

chosen are bad, making terminators cost more is bad and being able to that only , if you take a high cost abadon is bad too. There are 3 artefacts that they could have put in to the chaos codex instead of the ones that don't work at all and the BL supplement wouldn't be needed.

Makumba wrote:
chosen are bad, making terminators cost more is bad and being able to that only , if you take a high cost abadon is bad too. There are 3 artefacts that they could have put in to the chaos codex instead of the ones that don't work at all and the BL supplement wouldn't be needed.

Do you consider Chosen bad because of their cost or for another reason?

Aside from cultists being stupid cheap, I've seen Chosen be a lot more effective in actually killing things than normal Marines or even Plague Marines. Is there a reason other than the cost as to why Chosen are bad in you opinion?

Cost , being sm without ATKNF , but with higher cost . Even 5 man with special cost a ton of points , because of the upgrades one has to take. It is better to use the codex for extra slots to take stuff like Helldrakes or Obliterators , specialy as the later would buy veteran of the long war upgrade anyway.

I'm sure the fact that you actually have to buy the supplement, for money, is relevant to some people.

 fishy bob wrote:
I'm sure the fact that you actually have to buy the supplement, for money, is relevant to some people.

Agreed. $35 (USD) for about 4 pages worth of rules (~20 if you use Cities of Death and Planetstrike) is a bit much.

 Unholyllama wrote:
I was talking with a friend who plays CSM last night. We were talking about the codex and also talking about the Black Legion supplement. While it doesn't change a lot of things, it does provide some options for different traits, artifacts, and chosen as troops by default. The only drawback that stood out to me is VotLW being a required upgrade.

So while the changes are minor - why would a CSM player NOT take a list that uses the Black Legion Supplement?

VotLW costs a lot. 5 points on characters and 1-5 points on troopers. Except for cultists and vehicles it might increase your cost 5-10%. Do you want to field 10% less model, for hatred SM? On your Havocs?
As I understand it you can take artifacts from the standard book but you cannot mix. Otherwise, uhh the burning brand is stupidly good I want it.
Different warlord table
None of the bonus stuff in Black Legion is stuff I want. I dont run a daemon prince.

- Mandatory VotLW adds up eventually and forcing costs on you is always going to be a weaker prospect than choosing where it is applied.

- Chosen as Troops is a gimmick. Mandatory VotLW means they end up as 20pts each, too expensive to spam as mainline infantry and not enough bodies to protect the Plasma-spam carriers. As always it comes down to Plague Marines being a smidge more expensive while retaining a high concentration of special weapons, on top of T5/FNP/Fearless. They are a unit which have very limited application and are totally unsuitable for Troops to begin with. Being made into Scoring units just makes them a higher priority, at which point the cost and relative fragility are simply made worse.

- The Terminator deal is just awful all round. Requires a silly-expensive special character, prohibitively expensive even on top of that and doesn't actually improve the unit in what it needs to do. The cost to upgrade 3 Terminators to BS5, pays for half another model.

- Artefacts are different but not better. The Last Memory and Skull are sweet deals. Spineshiver is playable. The other 3 are pretty middling. However, the opportunity cost involved means that you lose the Mace, Brand and Axe which are arguably better options.

Can Black Legion armies not take Black Mace?

Bharring wrote:
Can Black Legion armies not take Black Mace?

They can't take ANY artifacts from the main codex. No Axe, Mace, Sword, or Burning Brand to name the good ones.

I plan on trying them as I think the warlord traits are better.

Also, if you run a daemon prince with armour, wing, PM3, spell familiar, skull, nurgle, and the sunburst power you get an interesting creature, although expensive. Add in a unit of cultist and you've got your allies.

Has anyone tried that daemon prince before?

Ironically, the BLack LEgion supplement is actually best for Thousand Sons players - we don't use the Mace so much, and we already have forced VoTLW on our Rubrics.

It allows you to be a total "Richard Cranium" and run 4 Turkies.

I'm playing a 2000 pt BL next week against an eldar buddy I play frequently. This will be my second time to field csm much less BL. I usually play eldar or necrons.

My opponant plays a fast/ infiltrating army comprised of mostly lots of jetbikes, a healthy unit of shining spears, warlocks and seers on bikes. Throw in rangers, reapers and guardians the latter 2 behind a ADL quadgun and that's his typical core mixing in variations of wraithguard , war walkers and fire prisms maybe swooping hawks for fun.

I am playing BL because I like BL though no little about the fluff other than the general. Also I build armies based how I like the models and if I want to buy and paint them as well as their effectiveness and if I'm willing to pay for them.

I love the chosen models and another buddy and I went halves on 3 DV sets. I hope future sculpts have the warped look of the DB boxed set.

My group is cool with me proxying chosen for any other csm infantry. I know plagues are most preferred though I'm just not interested in collecting and painting a Nurgle theme.

Below is the core list I am playing with room for last minute decisions on war gear, unit sizes and filling the HQ. Admittedly I do not yet own the supplement and my friend knows this. We agreed on house rules until I get it, if I do.

Troops
20 cultists, 2 flamers. 2 units.

6 chosen, 4 plasma gun, 1 flamer, champion w/ plasma pistol and power weapon, stock rhino. 2 units.

5 chosen, 5 flamers.

Variations might include marks of Nurgle for all chosen with dropping all chosen units to 5. 1 unit of cultists might get marks of Khorne. Depends if I run a fluffy BL with all 4 marks represented in the army.

Elite
5 Chaos Termies, 4 plasma combis, heavy flamer, maybe power fist. If fluffy marked army is used marks of Tzeenitch for all.

10 Noise Marines. 2 Blastmasters, 7 sonic blasters, doom siren. I just got some noise marine upgrades that am converting with 10 extra chosen models. I also got BL shoulder pads for the squads left shoulders. Ignore cover and jink is too good to pass against bikes, rangers etc... if I take a cheap lord of Slaanesh this guy's are scoring and round out my fluffy army of all marks represented.

Fast attack
Heldrake, baleflamer.

Heavy support
Predator fully kitted with lascannons.
2 vindicator with siege shields.

Fortification
ADL w/ quad. 20 cultists behind the wall on the gun. I customed a chaos themed adl and quad for the unit, looks tight. The predator and 1 vindicator will park there while the eldar bikes zoom at me. This fortification with these units were very effective last game with the vinny soaking majority fire power in the first couple rounds. Probably drop the shield on this vindicator unless things go so well I need to plow through my own adl, lol.

The other cultists would protect the 5 flamer chosen with the other vindicator moving up behind them as they approach objectives. Last game I moved the sacrificial cultists up the side through cover with the flamer chosen coming up behind to hold an objective while the cultists pushed enemy held objectives.

Termies will deep strike where needed. Last game they did not come till round 4 but wrecked havok behind his eldar adl where his reapers and guardians were sittin purdy. If they mishap again screw it, taking the chance. Maybe I'll get lucky and termies and heldrake will come round 2.

For HQ I have not decided..
Last game I used a Demon Prince, wings, armor, mastery level 2.
This time I might go with either: limit 1 HQ.
Said Demon Prince of Slaanesh. Vector striking and causing havoc.
Sorcerer mastery level 3. Generic powers not sure his best unit fit. Have the new model, it's cool and stock at level 3 cost effective imo.
Dirt cheap chaos lord of slaanesh. Goes where the noise is, Scores!
Warpsmith behind adl with cultists keeping the heavies going. I think he sounds fun and looks fun to paint. Guilty pleasure but probably not.

Depending on which HQ will of course determine cuts such as any added marks, possible war gear, unit size even elimination of a unit to hit 2000. Another example is lose the flamer chosen to beef the other 2 chosen units to 8. I am open to possibilities.

When I play my buddy in the group who fields dark angels VOTLW will hopefully shine and against one other space marine player in the group. Make room for the dark apostle to bury in 35 cultists with mok to make them fearless and zealous which could be great fun against sm. Basically I play mostly against 2 sm and 1 eldar.

I had terrible terrible roles against my eldar buddy a couple weeks ago though he was concerned about this list and I did have great moments such as plasma chosen wiping out his warlock bikes and spears. The vindicator soaking enormous firepower as an oh cr@p priority target behind the adl while other units moved up the board.

So hoping for a better showing for BL in game 2 cuz we both agreed the dice could not have rolled worse for me from round 2 on. I hope I did not jinx myself.

Please tell me your thoughts on my general all comers black legion list on what you may suggest. Though I am not really interested in allies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll be sure to post a bat rep!

The ability for CSM to ally with Black Legion is where the real power in the book is.

It opens up an extra HQ, Fast, and Heavy slot, which is HUGE.

I :heart: chosen with 5x special weapons and a Champ with combi-weapon hopping out of a dreadclaw.