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Note Moderators: Not sure if this should be in General or Proposed rules. Please move this post if you feel that it would be more appropriate in that category.

It is with great sadness that I must admit that it is unlikely that the new Tyranid codex will come out in November. It looks like January is becoming the more likely date.
But to pass the time I thought we could do some musings about what the new codex will hold for us. There are plenty of rumors but I have noticed that 40k prerelease rumors tend to be a little iffy until a few weeks before the actual release.

So it leaves us with some time to speculate. It seems to me that the new 6th edition codex will have to address five conceptual problems that need changing (so big picture stuff not individual rule changes) for the Tyranid’s to become a fun viable army in 6th edition.

1. Lack of army diversity
2. Lack of defense to air attacks
3. Lack of anti-vehicle ability (especially skimmers)
4. Vulnerability to shooting
5. Weakness of no grenades AKA difficutly assulting into terrain

First, the current codex does not really allow for more than one kind of completive build. Take out one of the following; Tervigons, Hive Guard and Trygons and your army will suffer. Take out two and winning in 6th edition is all but impossible. The current codex has far too many impractical units (is there any other army that has as many as Tyranids? Maybe Orks and they are hurting too). Not only does that limit the tactical flexibly of the army. It is also not a lot of fun. There will always be “power lists” out there but if the 6th edition codex is to be any good it really need to address the lack of diversity in practical Tyranid army builds.

Second, the lack of defense to air attacks. Granted this is a weakness for a lot of 5th edition codices, but the Tyranids are hit all the harder by the lack of fortifications and long range shooting in general. Some armies are bound to have AA be a strong suit (IG is a good candidate for this) and it may be that weak AA remains something of an Achilles heel for the Tyranids. But there is a difference between a weakness and an inability to cope with fliers. But if the rumors are to be believed about special attacks for flying MCs and skyfire for Hive Guard, we don’t have too much to worry about when we get the new codex.

Third, is the lack of anti-vehicle ability, especially skimmers which MCs have a hard time catching. I have heard some people argue that all armies have a weakness and that the Tyranids weakness is vehicles and we should not whine about it when we can slaughter infantry so well. I agree that a weakness against vehicles is an appropriate balance to Tyranid’s strength against infantry. But it is important to realize that vehicles play a much larger role 40k than they did in 3rd edition as they can be fielded in much larger numbers. However Tyranid’s ability to deal with vehicles has only marginally changed since then. So a decent 6th edition codex will either need to provide some better anti-vehicle range attacks or provide a way for our high strength units to catch and assault fast vehicles and skimmers (which I think fits better and would be cooler).

Fourth, shooting, true gaunts are meant to get shot and die. Any good Tyranid player knows this and does not mind losing half there army if that is what it takes to close with the enemy. But as 40K has evolved there seem to be a tendency for high fire power weapons to become cheaper and more prevalent. Adding in overwatch and changes to the rapid fire weapon rules and Tyranids start to take a real beating. Last but not least, many other army’s basic troops have gotten less expensive in 4th 5th and 6th editions making the Tyranid’s ability to overwhelm there opponent (even with heavy use of tervigons) much harder. All these factor together have become a debilitating factor for the Tyranids. Tyranids have never been a shooty army. So to bring Tyranid’s up to current (modern?) codex standards they either need to provide some special rules to increase the survivability (greater use for FNP or stealth would both be fitting and effective) or price adjust some models or biomorphs to compensate so we can bulk up the army and account increase in shooting losses.

Fifth, grenades play a much larger role in 6th then they have since possibility 2nd edition. Just about every other army has access to them which allows their infantry to has at least some ability to deal with vehicles and allows them to attack units is cover. Giving Tyranids grenades is not very fluffy and does not make a lot of sense for how the army works. But as a low armor save army Tyranids live and die by terrain use. By making enemy held terrain all the harder to take it makes the proper use of terrain all the harder for Tyranid players (especially in the shooty environment of 6th edition). So I think it is a problem that the codex needs to address if the Tyranids are to be played in the way the army is portrayed. Giving at least one troop choice the ability to assault into terrain or provide some other mitigating factor that would make attacking units in terrain to be more manageable I would argue is almost a necessity in the 6th edition codex.

Well what you’re your thoughts? What conceptual changes do you think the Tyranids need in the 6th edition?

I have some ideas on how to address these issues but I think I will put them in a follow up post as this post is long enough as it is

These are more personal ones so I may be wrong but here goes nothing...

Make the units more tactical. The Venothrope is an example of something that has tactical potential with it's spore cloud. Having a unit that maybe solely has the purpose of giving buffs to taunts may be a good thing. Remove Synapse creature. Make certain units better. The Pyrovore and possibly the Lictor are quite useless in many situations.

Once again, I may be wrong but it's something.

Excuse me? Remove synapse creature and IB? The defining feature of Nid special rules and fluff? This is what the entire Nid army is based around, efficiency and having a smaller group of highly intelligent controllers leading large groups of plebs and saving on brain matter, in exchange for more mindless plebs.

 Deadshot wrote:
Excuse me? Remove synapse creature and IB? The defining feature of Nid special rules and fluff? This is what the entire Nid army is based around, efficiency and having a smaller group of highly intelligent controllers leading large groups of plebs and saving on brain matter, in exchange for more mindless plebs.

Erm...oops . Alright, forget what I said about Synapse creature. Obviously I need to re-read my tyranid fluff.

an even BIGGER bug

All is forgiven :-/I was just really shocked at the suggestion. Besides the "Everything is a living creature and weapon/Bioengineering/No vehicles" thing, synapse is their defining trait.

Didn't I just read this? Oh yeah, on another forum.

I can't really comment since I don't play 6th edition anymore.

A few points to say, is some of your statements you state as Fact, not your opinion. If you read the forums on The Tyranid Hive where you posted as well, you will see there are a few people who actually play with what you say is Impossible, and do fairly well.

Once dinner is cooked, I will come back and reread everything again, and see what I can think of.

Zookie wrote:
Note Moderators: Not sure if this should be in General or Proposed rules. Please move this post if you feel that it would be more appropriate in that category.

It is with great sadness that I must admit that it is unlikely that the new Tyranid codex will come out in November. It looks like January is becoming the more likely date.
But to pass the time I thought we could do some musings about what the new codex will hold for us. There are plenty of rumors but I have noticed that 40k prerelease rumors tend to be a little iffy until a few weeks before the actual release.

So it leaves us with some time to speculate. It seems to me that the new 6th edition codex will have to address five conceptual problems that need changing (so big picture stuff not individual rule changes) for the Tyranid’s to become a fun viable army in 6th edition.

Problem here is, what we say is too little to late. I mean if Nids will be out in JanNiduary, then it's already done, and what we debate about will be a moot point. Would have been great talking about it 2 years ago, when maybe a difference would have been made.

1. Lack of army diversity
2. Lack of defense to air attacks
3. Lack of anti-vehicle ability (especially skimmers)
4. Vulnerability to shooting
5. Weakness of no grenades

First, the current codex does not really allow for more than one kind of completive build. Take out one of the following; Tervigons, Hive Guard and Trygons and your army will suffer. Take out two and winning in 6th edition is all but impossible. The current codex has far too many impractical units (is there any other army that has as many as Tyranids? Maybe Orks and they are hurting too). Not only does that limit the tactical flexibly of the army. It is also not a lot of fun. There will always be “power lists” out there but if the 6th edition codex is to be any good it really need to address the lack of diversity in practical Tyranid army builds.

This is your opinion and not fact. Quite a few people have successful builds, with what you say can't be done. While many people will only play one type of particular build (internet builds, theroyhammer) it seems Tyranids only have one style of play. Tyranids is not an easy army. It's not a forgiving army to play. There is no "easy button" for sure. But there is other builds viable, and have been proven, it's just they don't get talked about because it's not easy to play.

Second, the lack of defense to air attacks. Granted this is a weakness for a lot of 5th edition codices, but the Tyranids are hit all the harder by the lack of fortifications and long range shooting in general. Some armies are bound to have AA be a strong suit (IG is a good candidate for this) and it may be that weak AA remains something of an Achilles heel for the Tyranids. But there is a difference between a weakness and an inability to cope with fliers. But if the rumors are to be believed about special attacks for flying MCs and skyfire for Hive Guard, we don’t have too much to worry about when we get the new codex.



Third, is the lack of anti-vehicle ability, especially skimmers which MCs have a hard time catching. I have heard some people argue that all armies have a weakness and that the Tyranids weakness is vehicles and we should not whine about it when we can slaughter infantry so well. I agree that a weakness against vehicles is an appropriate balance to Tyranid’s strength against infantry. But it is important to realize that vehicles play a much larger role 40k than they did in 3rd edition as they can be fielded in much larger numbers. However Tyranid’s ability to deal with vehicles has only marginally changed since then. So a decent 6th edition codex will either need to provide some better anti-vehicle range attacks or provide a way for our high strength units to catch and assault fast vehicles and skimmers (which I think fits better and would be cooler).

If we can get better in other areas, then I agree, this should be the Tyranid weakness. Can't be good or awesome at everything. Would be nice, but not fair. I think this is a good weakness for Tyranids.

Fourth, shooting, true gaunts are meant to get shot and die. Any good Tyranid player knows this and does not mind losing half there army if that is what it takes to close with the enemy. But as 40K has evolved there seem to be a tendency for high fire power weapons to become cheaper and more prevalent. Adding in overwatch and changes to the rapid fire weapon rules and Tyranids start to take a real beating. Last but not least, many other army’s basic troops have gotten less expensive in 4th 5th and 6th editions making the Tyranid’s ability to overwhelm there opponent (even with heavy use of tervigons) much harder. All these factor together have become a debilitating factor for the Tyranids. Tyranids have never been a shooty army. So to bring Tyranid’s up to current (modern?) codex standards they either need to provide some special rules to increase the survivability (greater use for FNP or stealth would both be fitting and effective) or price adjust some models or biomorphs to compensate so we can bulk up the army and account increase in shooting losses.

I think gaunts need to be cheaper. They really don't need a FNP, Without Number rule or Tervigons. The reason we have them is because of poor rules we have right now. Tyranids need a REAL SWARM army. Can't do that when IG and Orks out number Tyranids. Nids need to be cheaper. Let them get killed off easily but let Nids have more bodies to be killed of by being cheaper, not by giving special rules so they live longer. As you say, fluff wise, Nids die easily so why would they need FNP to keep them alive longer? The MC should be harder to kill, the gaunts should be easier to kill. Once special rules are given to gaunts to stay alive longer, then it will apply to bigger Nids as well and then we will have unkillable MC. I say leave the MC tough to kill and gaunts easy to kill, but need more gaunts so it will be a swarm army and be fluffy.

Fifth, grenades play a much larger role in 6th then they have since possibility 2nd edition. Just about every other army has access to them which allows their infantry to has at least some ability to deal with vehicles and allows them to attack units is cover. Giving Tyranids grenades is not very fluffy and does not make a lot of sense for how the army works. But as a low armor save army Tyranids live and die by terrain use. By making enemy held terrain all the harder to take it makes the proper use of terrain all the harder for Tyranid players. So I think it is a problem that the codex needs to address if the Tyranids are to be played in the way the army is portrayed. Giving at least one troop choice the ability to assault into terrain or provide some other mitigating factor that would make attacking units in terrain to be more manageable I would argue is almost a necessity in the 6th edition codex.

Well what you’re your thoughts? What conceptual changes do you think the Tyranids need in the 6th edition?

I have some ideas on how to address these issues but I think I will put them in a follow up post as this post is long enough as it is

We don't need no stinking grenades. Again, grenades are given for the poor/bad rules we have now. It's ok everyone else has them but us, it is fluffy. We just need a rule where we get to attack at I even if going through terrian. After all we are from another galaxy and should be different from other armies. Nids shouldn't have same rules as others but different rules.

Davor wrote:
Didn't I just read this? Oh yeah, on another forum.

I can't really comment since I don't play 6th edition anymore.

A few points to say, is some of your statements you state as Fact, not your opinion. If you read the forums on The Tyranid Hive where you posted as well, you will see there are a few people who actually play with what you say is Impossible, and do fairly well.

Once dinner is cooked, I will come back and reread everything again, and see what I can think of.

\

The web is a small place

I did not explicitly say so, but yes this is all based on my opinion (outside or direct mathhammer it is all we have when discussing army builds and tactical problems). But I think I make some good arguments of how the wider game has shifted and logical changes that could be made to address these shift.

Anyway, I never argued that it is impossible to play well with the Tyranids (though I would argue that against 6th edition Eldar with well build list and a half way decent player it is very, very hard to win)

I did not intend this to a complaint that Tyranids are no good or deserve a better army style. But I do think that these 5 issue will need to be addressed to some degree, even if it is indirectly, to bring the Tyranids up to date into the 6th edition.

Either way it is just a discussion, and whether the codex comes out tomorrow or a years from now GW is not going to do anything one way or the other because of my opinion I am just trying to speculate what kind of changes we might see based on how the game has changed.

Genestealer cults! I'd quite like to collect a Genestealer cult army, for some reason.

Well, it probably wouldn't be in the codex, but a supplement for it. Which there have been rumours about, though obviously we have no idea if that'll come true or not.

Zookie wrote:

Davor wrote:
Didn't I just read this? Oh yeah, on another forum.

I can't really comment since I don't play 6th edition anymore.

A few points to say, is some of your statements you state as Fact, not your opinion. If you read the forums on The Tyranid Hive where you posted as well, you will see there are a few people who actually play with what you say is Impossible, and do fairly well.

Once dinner is cooked, I will come back and reread everything again, and see what I can think of.

\

The web is a small place

I did not explicitly say so, but yes this is all based on my opinion (outside or direct mathhammer it is all we have when discussing army builds and tactical problems). But I think I make some good arguments of how the wider game has shifted and logical changes that could be made to address these shift.

Anyway, I never argued that it is impossible to play well with the Tyranids (though I would argue that against 6th edition Eldar with well build list and a half way decent player it is very, very hard to win)

I did not intend this to a complaint that Tyranids are no good or deserve a better army style. But I do think that these 5 issue will need to be addressed to some degree, even if it is indirectly, to bring the Tyranids up to date into the 6th edition.

Either way it is just a discussion, and whether the codex comes out tomorrow or a years from now GW is not going to do anything one way or the other because of my opinion I am just trying to speculate what kind of changes we might see based on how the game has changed.

Long day at work, makes sense now. Sorry if I came out a arse.

Needs Genestealer cults.

Needs IG allies, perhaps with limited points allowed, to support Stealer Cults, but not be IG... plus a few token bugs.

There will probably be a new Big Bug to go with the MCs that everyone seems to be getting these days, or some tweaks to the MCs you already have to make one a Super-MC or something.

Probably some change to Adrenal Glands or something that increase movement and/or charge distance so you can get into assault faster/sooner.

Probably some change to certain bugs to make them a marginal anti-armor unit... grub-rockets or something, I dunno.

Davor wrote:

Zookie wrote:

Davor wrote:
Didn't I just read this? Oh yeah, on another forum.

I can't really comment since I don't play 6th edition anymore.

A few points to say, is some of your statements you state as Fact, not your opinion. If you read the forums on The Tyranid Hive where you posted as well, you will see there are a few people who actually play with what you say is Impossible, and do fairly well.

Once dinner is cooked, I will come back and reread everything again, and see what I can think of.

\

The web is a small place

I did not explicitly say so, but yes this is all based on my opinion (outside or direct mathhammer it is all we have when discussing army builds and tactical problems). But I think I make some good arguments of how the wider game has shifted and logical changes that could be made to address these shift.

Anyway, I never argued that it is impossible to play well with the Tyranids (though I would argue that against 6th edition Eldar with well build list and a half way decent player it is very, very hard to win)

I did not intend this to a complaint that Tyranids are no good or deserve a better army style. But I do think that these 5 issue will need to be addressed to some degree, even if it is indirectly, to bring the Tyranids up to date into the 6th edition.

Either way it is just a discussion, and whether the codex comes out tomorrow or a years from now GW is not going to do anything one way or the other because of my opinion I am just trying to speculate what kind of changes we might see based on how the game has changed.

Long day at work, makes sense now. Sorry if I came out a arse.

No worries


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Needs Genestealer cults.

Needs IG allies, perhaps with limited points allowed, to support Stealer Cults, but not be IG... plus a few token bugs.

There will probably be a new Big Bug to go with the MCs that everyone seems to be getting these days, or some tweaks to the MCs you already have to make one a Super-MC or something.

Probably some change to Adrenal Glands or something that increase movement and/or charge distance so you can get into assault faster/sooner.

Probably some change to certain bugs to make them a marginal anti-armor unit... grub-rockets or something, I dunno.

I think cults are not a bad idea. But I would like to see them as allies or a 0-1 choice (or 0-1 per Broodlord or like a patriarch unit)

I don't think that the bugs necessarily need more firepower but I would like a way to slow vehicles down. Like a way for MCs to grab it so it can’t drive off or (and I think this would be really cool) if gaunts and rippers could swarm over vehicle and obscuring the drivers line of sight and the vehicle could only move straight or in a random direction determined by a scatter. Like a reverse take shock. I imagine a scene like the one from aliens when they are driving the APC out of the hive.

No to Genestealer Cults IMO

Never liked the idea of it.

I love the simile I heard a while ago in regards to communicating with Tyranids: It would be like talking to your mashed potato. Impossible and ultimately pointless.

A giant living biotitan thing that has hull points and armor value, so that the giant robots with toughness and wounds have something to compliment them on the opposite end of the ridiculous spectrum.

In all seriousness, giving them back Malefactors as transports and Haruspex(how the feth do I make this plural...)en? as an assault vehicle would be pretty awesome. Special rule like the Tyranids get hopped up on super stims inside the malefactor and can assault out of it extra far or something.

Lol I think its been over a year since ive seen a nid army in my gaming group.

IMHO I like the idea I heard that hive guard get skyfire and maybe the anti skimmer thing.

They should absolutely get there spore pods.

Most importantly tervigons should not plug up on doulbles

my two cents