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I'm starting again with my Eldars, and I would like to know which is the best configuration for the wave serpents. The idea is include three of them in my 1850 points army, I have clear that scatter laser is a mandatory upgrade, holo-fields is also a "must" in my opinion, and I'm also considering to include spirit stones and shuriken cannon, but I don't know if is really worth to include such many upgrades or I can save the points. Thank you in advance for your comments.

For three Serpents, I'd recommend the following:

Turret Scatterlaser
Shuriken Cannon
Holofield
Ghostwalk Matrix (GWM)

The GWM allows the vehicles to ignore dangerous terrain tests. They can then be placed inside ruins, on top of terrain, hillcrests etc.... which essentially provides them a better cover save rather than just the Jink + Holofield.

5 DA and this WS loadout is 220 points and well worth it if you are taking 3.

I never considered the matrix. Do you really think is necessary? I mean, just avoiding that terrain areas it should be enough. I was wondering if the spirit stones were needed or not.
However I will try with the matrix to check its utility. Thank you for the reply

Don't bother with it, it is highly unnecessary, just the Lasers and Holo-Fields is enough and keeps the price to a minimum. The Cannon is optional, but given its range you will find you often only get the Snap-Shot it because you need to move too much.

And don't you think the spirit stones gives more resistance to the tank?

 Sarigar wrote:
Ghostwalk Matrix (GWM)

+1 to this.
The GWM is one of the undervalued pieces of wargear you can add onto the serpent. Without it, your forced to avoid terrain and it works against you. With it, you can use terrain to your advantage.

Terrain is something I don't see much if, so GWM doesn't get used.
But, if you come across a lot of area terrain, take it. Jink saves can often get bypassed, and you don't get to jink if you start 2nd.
Also, landing in cover so your passengers don't have to, that can often help get to an objective at the end of the game.

The SL is not the only turret option, and a BL (or even an ML) can come in handy as additional AV. A Farseer can give you twin-linked for the shield and shuriken, if you need it.

Sorry to derail a little bit, but what's the consensus on firing the shield after the scatter lasers hit? Are they considered twin linked even thougjh they are not weapons per se?

Yes. Read up on Scatter Lasers. You choose the order your weapons fire, and SLs offer TL to the rest of the weapons on the model firing it.

Spirit Stones are kind of a waste on Serpents.

1. Spirit Stones only ignore effects from certain penetrating hits which you Serpent Shield is turning into glances anyways
2. You should be ignoring 50% of all hits on your Serpent to begin with because of Jink and Holofields
3. Chances are your Serpent is going to be geting shot by AP 1 & 2 weapons to begin with therebye bumping up the results past Crew Shaken & Crew Stunned

Now if you are talking about Fire Prisms Spirit Stones do have some utility. I still only get them if I have spare points to spend, and even then I will upgrade the under gun before I buy the Stones.

I run 2 loadouts for Wave Serpents...

1. TL Scatter/Holofields/Shuriken Cannon for Dire Avengers who don't have to get as up close and personal
2. TL Scatter/Holofields/Shuriken Catapults/Vectored Engines for Wraithguard(or who I like to call, the new Fire Dragons)

I would definatly consider the Ghost Walk Matrix if the groups I playde with used more area terrain.

Thank you very much for the replies. Now I see the poor utility of the spirit stones, I will invest those points in something else. About the matrix, by the moment I don't think it as something really needed.

If you are looking for fill points and have other things fleshed out the way you want to and feel the rest would be completely useless...the Ghostwalk Matrix is a good item to take.

I'm starting again with my Eldars, and I would like to know which is the best configuration for the wave serpents. The idea is include three of them in my 1850 points army, I have clear that scatter laser is a mandatory upgrade, holo-fields is also a "must" in my opinion, and I'm also considering to include spirit stones and shuriken cannon, but I don't know if is really worth to include such many upgrades or I can save the points. Thank you in advance for your comments.

I've argued time and time against Holo Fields, and have had success without them. Tau, Eldar, and Daemons don't care about cover saves (for various reasons). In addition, there is some debate about Grav Weapons and cover saves, which is really the most scary aspect of SM right now.

IMO, the Holo Field points are better used elsewhere. Lots of successful Eldar players I know feel similarly. Again, you will consistently hear otherwise on Dakka though.

We play with a lot of ruins so that extra +1 can be money sometimes. I have always taken holofields and never regretted it. I can see the merit in saving those points, but I'm not usually running serpent spam so ten or twenty points isn't as big of an issue as like 50 or 60 points in a more spammy list.

Same answer with shuriken cannons for me. I have always taken them and never regretted the decision, but I can see the merit in not taking it.

Me too. My Holo-Fields are the main reason my group hate my Serpents.

I have always taken holofields and always will. But beyond that, I dont take any upgrades. The Serpent Shield is just too powerful NOT to use every turn that you can shoot it and between that the TL SL on top, you will never fire the chin-cannon (Can move 12" and fire 2 weapons at full BS).

Well, not to take holo-fields I think is going too far. I would feel like going in an open tank like the venoms Finally I will make my list with three serpents with holo fields and scatter lasers.

Personally, I always run scatter lasers, holo's and cannons on the chin. If I have the points I take the ghostwalk too. Chin cannons arent expensive at just 10 points. Granted you can only fire 2 weapons at full BS if you move 12, but you can still fire it as a snap shot, and if the SL has it its twin linked, so has some chance of hitting! Its also a good back up if you want to keep your shields up!

Holo's are a must, cover saves make these guys really durable, ignoring 50% of hits that's are strong enough to take it out. Most shots at that strength don't normally ignore cover. and if it doesn't ignore it and you haven't shot the shield you then can ignore the pen. But that cover save is pretty useful at 50/50. But thats where the ghostwalk comes in. being able to start the serpent on terrain or in cover and move freely onto or off of it means you can ensure you always have a cover save. That's very useful if you intend to fire the shield.

That's my experience anyway.

Don't forget you can only move 6" and fire everything at full BS... so it's nice to have that chin cannon.

Well, not to take holo-fields I think is going too far. I would feel like going in an open tank like the venoms Finally I will make my list with three serpents with holo fields and scatter lasers.

This is the type of hyperbole that bothers me about the pro holo-field crowd. A Wave Serpent is nothing like a Venom--Holo Fields or not. AV 12 and 3 HP is very durable (not open topped like the Venom as well). One can always choose to keep the shields up to make opponents really work to take a Serpent down if the need arises as well.

Overall, YMMV. However, if you plan on playing at events right now, they are a waste of points. The game is dominated by Tau and Eldar, both of which will easily ignore cover and render holos a wasted upgrade. Daemon armies aren't shooting Serpents down, they attack in close combat. Again, holo fields will be a waste. Marines are starting to make a comeback, but it is largely bike based grav spam that seems to offer the most competitive choices. Depending on the ruling from TOs, grav may not grant a cover save for vehicles.

On paper, holo fields are amazing. If I was to run two, maybe three Serpents, I'd consider them. Above three Serpents/Eldar vehicles and the points really add up. Holos for 5 Serpents is 75 points, 6 is 90. For reference, that is just under the cost of adding a unit of Swooping Hawks. One cannot claim that there isn't a substantial tradeoff to taking a number of vehicle upgrades that end up being relatively useless against the top lists.

Once more, thank you for all the comments and advices. Some of you consider the holo fields unnecessary when you fight against some specific enemies, but I don't make the lists in accordance to the enemy, I like making lists valids for any enemy, and then the holo fields should be mandatory. Maybe I explained wrong whne I started the post.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Don't forget you can only move 6" and fire everything at full BS... so it's nice to have that chin cannon.

Not for Fast Skimmers, as they can move at cruising speed and still fire 2 at full BS.

Ah, I read that again, and if "you can only move 6"" meant "you can move Combat speed", then yes, all weapons at full BS.

 JGrand wrote:


On paper, holo fields are amazing. If I was to run two, maybe three Serpents, I'd consider them. Above three Serpents/Eldar vehicles and the points really add up. Holos for 5 Serpents is 75 points, 6 is 90. For reference, that is just under the cost of adding a unit of Swooping Hawks. One cannot claim that there isn't a substantial tradeoff to taking a number of vehicle upgrades that end up being relatively useless against the top lists.

I agree with this. I use a single Serpent at 1500-1750, two at 2000 points. And I always take Holofields, because honestly, what better way is there to spend those 15-30 points. If I went down the Serpent spam route, I'd definitely drop them to keep costs minimum.

only a single serpent at 1500-1750?

single serpents tend to die really easily.

Yep, a single Serpent. They're too expensive for me to bring three or four, considering what else I like fielding in my lists. And with Holofields, he's not an easy kill, that's why I have them on it. The point is to soak up as much firepower from the enemy army as it can. But if it gets shot, my WK won't, or my Nightspinner won't or my War walkers won't(don't say they'll die to bolter fire, I haven't heard of a bolter with 40" range). And even if they all do, my troops will win me the game.

However, I don't run MSU Eldar.

 JGrand wrote:

Well, not to take holo-fields I think is going too far. I would feel like going in an open tank like the venoms Finally I will make my list with three serpents with holo fields and scatter lasers.

This is the type of hyperbole that bothers me about the pro holo-field crowd. A Wave Serpent is nothing like a Venom--Holo Fields or not. AV 12 and 3 HP is very durable (not open topped like the Venom as well). One can always choose to keep the shields up to make opponents really work to take a Serpent down if the need arises as well.

Overall, YMMV. However, if you plan on playing at events right now, they are a waste of points. The game is dominated by Tau and Eldar, both of which will easily ignore cover and render holos a wasted upgrade. Daemon armies aren't shooting Serpents down, they attack in close combat. Again, holo fields will be a waste. Marines are starting to make a comeback, but it is largely bike based grav spam that seems to offer the most competitive choices. Depending on the ruling from TOs, grav may not grant a cover save for vehicles.

On paper, holo fields are amazing. If I was to run two, maybe three Serpents, I'd consider them. Above three Serpents/Eldar vehicles and the points really add up. Holos for 5 Serpents is 75 points, 6 is 90. For reference, that is just under the cost of adding a unit of Swooping Hawks. One cannot claim that there isn't a substantial tradeoff to taking a number of vehicle upgrades that end up being relatively useless against the top lists.

I think you might have better mileage for a meta reason though, not for the real reason Holofields are strong. The only time those Holofields aren't as useful are if you use your shields more than you should and plan on dying more likely to a penetrating hit than being wrecked from glances. If you are playing the model and plan to use all of the strengths it has, having the Holofield for an extra 17% chance of ignoring fire.....the survivability it gives for those points are pretty undeniable.

I'd argue that Holofield is even more important if you use your shield often. Especially if you happened to roll Fortune and your opponent isn't Tau.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Don't forget you can only move 6" and fire everything at full BS... so it's nice to have that chin cannon.

Not for Fast Skimmers, as they can move at cruising speed and still fire 2 at full BS.

Ah, I read that again, and if "you can only move 6"" meant "you can move Combat speed", then yes, all weapons at full BS.

yea sorry, that was very poor english.

So i'm curious was the consensus on Holo-fields yes if there are only 2, but anymore save the points?

The scatterlaser + cannon is a seriously strong offensive choice. Being a fast skimmer gives you both those shots at 12" movement. Followed by a potentially twinlinked shield shot, that can pound on troops and light armor. (Check your FAQs and tourny director, it varies)

Note: you need to decide if you are firing your shield before you see if your scatterlaser hits. It will, but all weapon shots need to be declared up front.

For support equipment, holofields negate 1 in 6 'wounds' after turn 1. You have to move before it's useful. It's still a very solid upgrade, I would think long and hard before skipping it.
Spirit Stones: redundent with your shield, likely not worth it.
Ghostwalk: possibly useful turn 1, before you have moved. After, you are going to be hard pressed to find 4+ area cover that you can hide IN. Otherwise, a forest provides the same cover as a jink, and line of site can be obscured by being behind terrain, not in.
Boosting engines: kind of a gambit. I tried it with the CTM to move 36" turn 1 and shoot rear armor with a brightlance. Funny, but not consistant and expensive.