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Asterion Moloc, or at least whoever has taken that title, is a badass. He is dedicated to taking out enemy commanders. He'd be a worthy advesary to any current Chapter Master of the original chapters.
The Minotaurs have access to the best equipment available to the Astartes.
If the engagement was drawn out the Minotaurs would win as they are able to replenish their number much more quickly (with the exception to this perhaps being the Ultramarines due to the size of Ultramar?).
It really depends on the situation. They engage their targets as a Chapter, rather than sending out companies. It would be hard to get them to face off without any kind of intervention from either side. I doubt the High Lords would want them fighting with the founding Chapters unless it was completely necessary. It would be easier to drum up support for 10,000 years of service to the Emperor than it would be for a shadowy Astartes organisation of the High Lords that few would have heard about.
I'd imagine the High Lords wouldn't just send the Minotaurs to deal with the originals, presumably they'd have some kind of Ecclesiarchal or other Imperial Organisation along side to support.
If we move out of original founding I think a full strength Chapter of Flesh Tearers would be a good challenge for the Minotaurs and are probably likely to be their next targets. Currently the Flesh Tearers wouldn't stand a chance, Seth vs Moloc would be an interesting fight though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/24 18:48:05
Medium of Death wrote: If the engagement was drawn out the Minotaurs would win as they are able to replenish their number much more quickly (with the exception to this perhaps being the Ultramarines due to the size of Ultramar?)
No, Minos would win on that score. It's not the size of the available population that matters; it's the time it takes to go from novice to initiate. The Minos' process is way fast for whatever shady reasons.
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Medium of Death wrote: If we move out of original founding I think a full strength Chapter of Flesh Tearers would be a good challenge for the Minotaurs
Tearers are understrength (I don't think Black Rage compensates) so how about the Space Sharks instead?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/24 18:51:50
Depends who's writing it. Also the location, situation, and other variables.
The first founding chapters aren't necessarily better then any of the others, they just tend to have a few more old toys lying around. Which, given the way technology works in 40k, does give them an edge. But not an insurmountable one.
They also tend to be split up and spread out. So is someone deployed at full chapter strength drops in, they are going to be outgunned and destroyed. This assumes they are being mugged away from home. Some homeworlds have formidable defenses, and non-marine forces to help defend. I'm not sure how much help Baal would be to the BA, but I would not want to tangle with the Ultramarines on their home turf.
Medium of Death wrote: If the engagement was drawn out the Minotaurs would win as they are able to replenish their number much more quickly (with the exception to this perhaps being the Ultramarines due to the size of Ultramar?)
No, Minos would win on that score. It's not the size of the available population that matters; it's the time it takes to go from novice to initiate. The Minos' process is way fast for whatever shady reasons.
I felt a bit daft after posting that as I realise that their strength comes from almost instantaneous resupply.
The Fall IA seems to hint that he is a "Monster" of some kind. I kind of read it as possible traitor marine, subdued and imprissioned. Kind of like a penitent engine. There's a passage about him not being revered or respected like other Dreadnoughts.
Medium of Death wrote: If we move out of original founding I think a full strength Chapter of Flesh Tearers would be a good challenge for the Minotaurs
Tearers are understrength (I don't think Black Rage compensates) so how about the Space Sharks instead?
I think that would work as it's said that the Sharks are more powerful in hand to hand, without the black rage to keep them down.
Something that I thought was relatively interesting, weren't the Crimson Fists seen as Imperial lapdogs recently? Something about them doing the High Lords bidding in order to assist in re-building the chapter? I wonder if they'd be present at any founding chapter extermination... probably not the Imperial Fists anyway.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/24 19:01:11
Medium of Death wrote: Something that I thought was relatively interesting, weren't the Crimson Fists seen as Imperial lapdogs recently? Something about them doing the High Lords bidding in order to assist in re-building the chapter?
Medium of Death wrote: Something that I thought was relatively interesting, weren't the Crimson Fists seen as Imperial lapdogs recently? Something about them doing the High Lords bidding in order to assist in re-building the chapter?
I haven't heard of that.
From the Warhammer 40k Wiki (not Lexicanum)
Spoiler:
Zealous Servants
While many Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes are firm in their beliefs and zealous in defending the Emperor's Imperium, the Crimson Fists' zeal is, if anything, greater than usual. This Chapter trait has lead to the Crimson Fists being called upon numerous times by the High Lords of Terra to exterminate their fellow Space Marine Chapters who have been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. At least three such instances have been recorded in Imperial history. The first such occurred after a routine examination of the gene-seed of the Chapter known as the Sons of Gideon revealed that it had mutated to such an extent that the Space Marines of this Chapter had been driven insane by a chemical imbalance. The Crimson Fists mercilessly destroyed the Sons of Gideon's homeworld of Gideon IV and then hunted down the Sons of Gideon's 3rd Company which had escaped the initial assault and had been butchering its way through the 4 billion citizens of the Colar System. The second Chapter the Crimson Fists took action against was the Marines Vigilant, who had come under the influence of a strange and rare Warp entity that had wiped away the Chapter's willingness to engage in combat. Tragically, the Marines Vigilant put up no resistance at all as the Crimson Fists bombarded their verdant homeworld into a wasteland.
The third Chapter the Crimson Fists fought against were the Soul Drinkers. Dark rumours persist that there were 3 Second Founding Chapters of the Imperial Fists, the final one being the Soul Drinkers. For unknown reasons, in the last century of the 41st Millennium the Soul Drinkers were declared Excomunicate Traitoris and all records of the Chapter were destroyed by an Inquisitorial Edict of Obliteration. Somehow these Renegade Space Marines escaped destruction. On Entymion IV, an entire Battle Company of the Crimson Fists sought to eradicate the remaining traitors of the Soul Drinkers. Remarkably, the Soul Drinkers not only out-maneuvered the Crimson Fists but managed to escape the planet as well. While the Crimson Fists did manage to foil a brewing plot concocted by a Dark Eldar Kabal, the Chapter was furious that the Soul Drinkers had escaped the righteous retribution of the Emperor. The Crimson Fists' willingness to sanction their fellow Space Marines has earned them a reputation as the High Lords of Terra's lapdogs by the more unorthodox Chapters such as the Space Wolves, White Scars and the Exorcists.
As for the Minotaurs going toe to toe with a first founding chapter, I think that the minotaurs would be able to strike quickly at the heart of the chapter and possibly remove the 'head' as it were before the rest of the chapter could be recalled to defend the homeworld/battlebarge. Though I think that doing anything in the Ultramar system might be tough to accomplish just based on how defensive the whole system is as a whole. I think if they were to go toe to toe with a chapter they might have issues with the Carcharodons, simply because the latter is more brutal in their warfare than the the Minotaurs (surprisingly!). There was a few things in the Badab War books where people were afraid of the Minotaurs and their brutality, and then the Carcharodons showed up and made war dirtier than the Minotaurs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/24 19:37:11
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The 40k wiki is pretty unreliable. Note that the statement is not even cited. The stories about exterminating of the Sons of Gideon and the Marines Vigilant are from one of the Deathwatch supplements. But that source says the CF were ordered to do so by the Inquisition rather than the HLoT. The incident with the Soul Drinkers happened before the CF lost Rynn's World, so if probably not what MoD is half-remembering. Plus in that instance, the CF were not ordered to exterminate the Sould Drinkers. The Soul Drinkers simply arrived amid the CF (who were engaged in an unrelated battle against the DE) whereupon the latter set upon the former.
space wolves are definetly the original anti astartes astartes.
that is why they were sent to kill the 1k sons, the fluff is pretty overt about saying that was their original (if somewhat hidden) purpose, and not just in the books where they go to purge the 1k sons, the "no wolves on fenris" book also goes into how they were made to kill astartes, "just in case"
The SW seems to think of themselves that way. I haven't seen a clear statement from the Emperor on that. It makes sense to me that the SW were sent after the 1ksons because of their specific qualities against psykers and Russ's certain anitpathy toward them (i.e., Russ could be trusted to carry out the orders) rather than them being anti-Astartes generally.
Apparently it's from the DWRPG, but is the Inquisition rather than the High Lords. The rebuilding of the chapter just seems to be from my mind.
EDIT *Was typing this up, went for Tea and came back before checking to see if the thread had updated. Apologies if it seems I'm rehashing things just said*
Back to the Minotaurs, this is the quote from FW's site about Asterion.
The name of the bloody-handed and paranoid master of the Minotaurs Chapter, Asterion Moloc, is a byword for slaughter and destruction in the name of the Imperium across a hundred worlds, yet he is also a diligent and disciplined logistician and a master of siege craft. In battle he can most often be found at the head of his 1st Company Terminators, and when not prosecuting a conflict he occupies a brazen throne at the very heart of his flagship, the labyrinthine heavy assault carrier Daedelos Krata.
I'm wondering if the Asterion is an experiment to create an Angron type leader. A mini Angron that wasn't irreparably damaged from the start and is still able to keep his composure.
The Imperial Fists present an interesting one. Perhaps Moloc would win against their current Chapter Master, Vladimir Pugh, but I think he might have trouble with First Company Captain Lysander.
As for the Minotaurs vs the Space Wolves, I think that presents the ability for a good one on one rumble. Minotaur fleet arrives at Fenris and the games begin. Regardless of the Space Wolves Legion being the "Astartes Killers", the Chapter doesn't hold a monopoly to that in current 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/24 20:04:10
You're including Primarchs in your fight... That's not possible considering that most of them are dead, in stasis, or lost in the warp.
Also the head of the Caracharodons is Tyberos, the Red Wake. I'll give my own little thing as to my thoughts on the the breakdown...
My scenario revolves around the Minotaurs being dispatched in secret by the High Lords of Terra and would appear in system without warning and without attempting to parlay for peace. In an even fight, I still give the edge to Minotaurs simply because of their tendency to commit the entire chapter to a fight.
Space Wolves: This would probably be a close fight depending on the current fighting strength of the chapter (quoted to be about 700 at most in one of the more recent books, they are definitely not 1,000 marines strong). Moloc vs Logan would be a truly epic fight with both of these Chapter Masters being fething insane fighters, in the end I give it to Logan as the winner simply because Logan doesn't give a single flying feth about who he's fighting, and would fight until hacked into little bit sized marine kibble. Though I feel like the Minotaurs would be able to destroy the chapter quick enough and win the overall war.
Dark Angels: I give this one to the Minotaurs hands down, again this involves the chapter being away. The Deathwing are almost always traveling and hunting down the fallen, which means that their floating fortress would be without its first company and missing veterans and precious terminator armor.
Blood Angels: I think the Blood Angels would win, as long as they can keep the Black Rage at bay. I see this fight going on for a long while. I think that Dante would also beat Moloc, but not without taking massive wounds in return.
Raven Guard: I don't think the Raven Guard would know what hit them (sorry RG players!), I think that the Minotaurs would hit them hard and fast and leave nothing behind, it'd be like Istvaan V all over again .
Salamanders: The resolve shown by the Sallies is admirable and they would definitely put up a solid fight, I think that they would get crushed in the opening salvos of the fight but would regroup and take back all the ground they have. Granted they would have to survive the initial fight with their weakened numbers. Fight of the Spears! He'stan vs Moloc would be an awesome fight, though I see Moloc winning in the end.
Iron Hands: I feel would go similarly to the RG and Sally fight simply because I feel that the Minotaurs could take out enough of them in the initial fight.
Imperial Fist: This and the next one might be the toughest fight for the Minotaurs. The Imperial Fists are the ultimate defenders, and I'm sure that the Phalanx would be extremely tough to break into/attack. Vlad vs Moloc would be an interesting fight, and while I don't know much about the IF Chapter Master, I'm sure that if Captain Darnath B.A. Lysander isn't the chapter master that must make Vladimir Pugh even more B.A., possibly even double plus B.A.
Ultramarines: This I think will go to the Ultramarines, surprise or not. The Ultramar system is extremely well defended against invaders, and after seeing how Macragge's defense are set up in Unremembered Empire, I feel like unless you're a Tyranid, you're not getting close to those planets. The ONLY way I see the Minotaurs doing this is to warp jump so that their ships jump into the system within firing range (normal warp jump points are kept outside of firing ranges for this reason). They would also have to do something about the void shields that surround Macragge lest any sort of drop pod assault fail miserably. And sadly, I give Marneus the edge vs Moloc. Moloc might be a brute and a bad ass, but Marneus would probably just paste him.
As someone that has been pouring over both the CF and the Minotaurs articles on Lex and 40kwiki, they are rarely different in noticeable ways.
The Crimson Fists have always had close ties with the Imperium and the Inquisition. They have contributed many warriors to the kill-teams of the Ordo Xenos, being renowned Ork fighters. They have also, at the order of Terra and the Inquisition, destroyed two chapters of brother Space Marines; the insane Sons of Gideon and the mind-wiped Marines Vigilant. This has earned them a reputation as lap dogs of the Inquisition among certain chapters.[Needs Citation]
That is from Lex, and they do say it needs citation.
Though through some googling it seems to come from the Soul Drinkers Novel, and maybe Crimson Tears (another Soul Drinkers novel)
Highly debatable. Is this really what they were designed to do or is it just their reputation thanks to rumbling with the 1k Sons?
This, their fight with the World Eaters (as stated in Betrayer), and the implication that they may have had something to do with one of the missing legions.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/24 20:11:32
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I'm wondering if the Asterion is an experiment to create an Angron type leader. A mini Angron that wasn't irreparably damaged from the start and is still able to keep his composure.
The Minotaurs are basically (and possibly literally) what happens when you take World Eaters and somehow put them under absolute control of the High Lords of Terra who hold their remote control. (That super dreadnought of their's shut down by basically what seemed like a remote control-ish function too, possibly in the form of a key word)
Asteron's description of him sitting on his brass throne (Khorne is the god of brass) counting the drops of blood his chapter spilt (blood god!) when he's not out slaughtering people in close combat basically paints him out to be "What if Khorne was a space marine that was controlled by the High Lords of Terra?"
(Minotaurs are also a recurring motif with Khorne and a lot of his forces and demons)
Asteron even possibly comes back to life if he gets killed (even if "reincarnated" in another body, metaphorically speaking), just like a demon/god can.
And the chapter seeks out worthy opponents. And their chapter tactics gives them fearless. And blah blah blah honestly it's almost as obvious as the Blood Ravens at this point (though they don't get a fluff story of who their probable founder is like the Blood Ravens did).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/24 20:39:16
Definitely agree that the FW description is dripping with the scent of the Blood God and perhaps Angron. Angron did afterall lead the gladiators of his adopted home world against a much larger and better equipped army to great sucess. Slightly OT, but did the Emperor purge that planet, or was it allowed to continue as it was with Angron being completely denied of any vengeance?
I take it we could all roughly agree that the Minotaurs have something to do with the World Eaters then?
I've been thinking about the Chapter Master duels in more detail. Asterion Moloc has come back from the dead several times. While each time he would be coming back from a memory start before the duel it could still offer some kind of element of attrition to have such a powerful opponent constantly return. How demoralising for a hard won fight to be presented with your foe, completely renewed and ready to start it all again. Obviously there would be some time in him coming back, but it wouldn't be completely unrealistic for the rest of the chapter to hold the line while he returns, bringing with him new Minotaurs to replenish the losses.
Asterion Moloc was the commander-in-chief of the Space Marine forces sent to the Amarah system by request of governor Calibron Laan to defend it against an unknown enemy. During the Battle of Amarah, Moloc led an assault force into the heart of the Necron vessel codenamed Dead Hand and fought with the Necron Overlord believed to be Maktlan Kutlakh, war leader of the Maynarkh, before he was vented into space, badly wounded. Moloc was initially reported as killed in action, but his fleet recovered him alive. This is at least the seventh such incident over the last five centuries, which leads some to believe that "Asterion Moloc" is a legacy inherited by the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs along with his panoply and engrammatically-enforced memories and personality
Moloc is not phased by death in the slightest, if he doesn't kill you this time he'll get you the next.
I'm a little disappointed by the lack of faith in the Iron Hands, a chapter that brutally throws itself against it's opponent and who are equally without mercy when compared to the Minotaurs.
I think any battle needs to be conducted at a Chapter vs Chapter level. The DA vs Minotaurs, specifically the First Company of each chapter, would be very interesting. I think Belial would fall in combat to Asterion, but the overall experience of the Deathwing would previal. It's harder to imagine a fleet based engagement, but I guess it could go either way. The Minotaurs have a large amount of ships for a subsequent founding chapter (which I presume to be equal to the first founding?), and have additional ships acquired as battle trophies from the Lamenters and an Ultramarines successor.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/24 20:48:47
Moloc and the Minotaurs are more likely based on the Brazen Bulls (a torture device), the Khalkotauroi from Greek mythology, and the Minotaur of Crete, with Moloc himself being based on this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch.
Though I believe there is something about the cursed founding being used to test hybrid gene-seed, mixing in traitor and loyalist gene-seed.
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Alfndrate wrote: Though I believe there is something about the cursed founding being used to test hybrid gene-seed, mixing in traitor and loyalist gene-seed.
Manchu wrote: IA vol. 10 states that the Minotaur geneseed is "chimeric" and that the Magos Biologos may have arrogantly used "forbidden" sources for the 21st Founding. So that's as close as we get to an answer. IA vol. 10 says nothing about the World Eaters. That is totally fan speculation based on IA vol. 10 comments that prior to their disappearance they were known for their extreme brutality. I believe IA vol. 10 uses the word beserk or berserker at some point, from which fans have inferred the World Eaters connection.
From the wiki article on Moloch, it has also been translated as "Seed", pertaining to Children. Children of the World Eaters perhaps? Son of Angron?
I also found this particularly interesting.
Milton's Paradise Lost
In John Milton's Paradise Lost (1667), Moloch is one of the greatest warriors of the fallen angels,
"First MOLOCH, horrid King besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents tears,
Though, for the noyse of Drums and Timbrels loud,
Their children's cries unheard that passed through fire
To his grim Idol. Him the AMMONITE
Worshipt in RABBA and her watry Plain,
In ARGOB and in BASAN, to the stream
Of utmost ARNON. Nor content with such
Audacious neighbourhood, the wisest heart
Of SOLOMON he led by fraud to build
His Temple right against the Temple of God
On that opprobrious Hill, and made his Grove
The pleasant Vally of HINNOM, TOPHET thence
And black GEHENNA call'd, the Type of Hell."
He is listed among the chief of Satan's angels in Book I, and is given a speech at the parliament of Hell in Book 2:43 – 105, where he argues for immediate warfare against God. He later becomes revered as a pagan god on Earth.
I'm not familiar with any of the biblical writings behind this idea, but certainly you could see with the reference to blood and killing of children the idea for Khorne, Angron and Asterion all could have been inspired from these writings. Well to me at least.
I know it's a theory that they are related to the World Eaters, but I do concede that Chimeric would suggest that there is more than one source. I'm not sure who the other "Father" would be though. If Angron were to be one, would Perturabo be the other? It could be more than two, but I definitely think there's a strong mix of World Eaters in there. I guess some Loyalist attributes could be mixed in too. I wouldn't rule out Guilliman. Certainly the Minotaurs share much of the Ultramarines Greek iconography. Perhaps this is just a coincidence as they are taking that element from the Theseus and the Minotaur legend.
Not sure Khorne is big into killing kids. That is a fluff problem with him. On the one hand, it's "cares not from whence the blood flows." On the other hand, it's about honorable combat.
UM are not really Greek so much as "Classical." Minotaurs are much more Greek-inspired ... with a Chapter Master named after a Semitic deity, that is.
I should have made myself clear, while I know that passage refers to children I was more thinking that Space Marines would be the interpretation for that being "Children of the Emperor", well "Grandchildren". It's a stretch I'll give you that.
The last bit about him being the first one to argue for warfare against God just seemed to be like Angron being very open to waging war with the Emperor.
I get the point about Khorne and the kids, but I assume this is just another facet of the beast. Many of the other gods have strange contradictions to their nature. It kind of allows you to put your force in a particular niche of that God I guess.
I also never knew that Asterion was possibly the name for the Minotaur. This probably being another reference to the Minotaurs being created in some way.
How likely do we think that these Minotaurs share the name of the previous ones only? It seems they are vastly different.
If the minotaurs went up against the Imperial Fist I dont think they have a chance they would have to take the phalanx good luck with that and I can not see the black templars not jumping in to help the father chapter and than its over 6000 marines!!!!
gilamonster wrote: If the minotaurs went up against the Imperial Fist I dont think they have a chance they would have to take the phalanx good luck with that and I can not see the black templars not jumping in to help the father chapter and than its over 6000 marines!!!!
Note that the OP specifically said no support from successors... otherwise it becomes pointless. This is one on one, the chapter has a feast and all marines are summoned to home base. Suddenly, the Minotaurs full fleet stops by and fires... Full chapter vs full chapter, but only one chapter...
(plus the BT are probably the most powerful single chapter, just because of their numbers)
But, vs the nine...
Blood Angels: I call minotaurs: Yes, Dante is good. Maybe he can beat Moloc, I'd say it's 70-30 that Dante wins. But the chapter, overall, the Minotaurs are too specialized and prepared. Blood Angels flaw would hurt them and they'd lose too much control. Various books have the Blood Angels under attack, but I think the Minotaurs could take them out.
Salamanders: Minotaurs again. Sallys have a slightly smaller chapter, and Moloch takes the Sally CM down. Good equipment for both, but the Minotaurs are just tougher.
Raven Guard: Invading the Spire is tricky... a tough initial strike hurts the Ravens, then the flock scatters... I feel the Minotaurs couldn't finish off the chapter, but will suffer less casualties. They could cripple the chapter, and kill the Command staff, but the chapter is too stealthy to be fully eliminated.
Iron Hands: Oh boy. They're tough, relentless, no shock value, good tech... Minotaurs also have a great fleet, armory and full strength. I favor Moloch over Stronos, but the nature of the chapters council makes this less crippling. This comes down to location. Neutral field, I will favor the Minotaurs... slightly.
Imperial Fists: I call fists. Tough on the defense, stubborn, never say die. The Phalanx gives a fleet advantage over almost anyone, Minotaurs included. I favor Moloch, but overall they aren't going to be able to break the Fists in defense and the fleet will cause the Minos to take too many casualties coming in.
Space Wolves: They have 12 companies, so I believe they're a bit over average numbers, and I call this the deciding factor, in a Wolf victory. Logan-Asterion is just too close to call, and both are savage determined fighters.
Ultramarines: They and the Minotaurs really hate eachother... Ultras are the typical chapter, so you know the Minotaurs have practice against the Codex Astartes. I like Moloch over Calgar, but Calgar as a better commander who wouldn't engage the challenge until late in the campaign. In Ultramar, I call the Ultras winning. Neutral field though? I have to choose the Minotaurs, if nothing else for sure OTT badassery!
Dark Angels: The wings are cool and all, but they're just efficient terminators. Minotaurs are very well equipped, and can match them Termi for Termi. Moloch could whipe out anyone who challenged him unless the Lion woke up. I just have to pick the minotaurs.
White Scars: This is close to the Raven Guard... but overall they could do it. Minotaurs can actually finish this one because the Scars are bigger on Speed then Stealth, and eventually the Minotaurs would catch up and cut them down. Savagery of the Scars is a boost but not quite enough.
Blood Angels- Gotta give it to the red winged warriors. they have more land raiders and artificer armor than any other chapter. Dante has 100s of years of experience commanding his troops over the other. also remeber guys black rage =/ the red rage. black rage is actually an advantage as fluff wise it always happens before the battle, or when a marine is close to death.
Dark Angels- O man, toughy, Azreal is not a good fighter, and belial isn't awe inspiring either, if any commander was to actually have a chance vs the minotaurs CM it would be Sammael, the guys insane. Still give it to the minotaurs CM though. but if its them attacking the rock?? Dark angels, that thing is locked up tighter than the IF main barge.
Space wolves- well, there is a lot of fluff listing them as 1200 and other listing them as 10k legion status.- personally IDK much about them as I don't really like them, but in the end. if its them attacking Fenris, SW
Iron Hands- omit due to lack of knowledge to make a good guess.
Raven guard- I agree that the guard would lose the first battle. Then scatter and use raid, and hit and run tactics. in the end I think minotaurs. Its hard to say though
Salamanders- As much as I like them, salamanders would lose if only just.
Ultramarines- ultramar system? the smurfs take it. neutral ground? gotta give it to the minotaurs, they would know every move the smurfs would make before they made them.
White scars- N/A omit.
IF- similar to the rock, and I think Capt. Lysander would rock the minotaurs CM world. would be a good fight tho.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/25 02:59:50
Ultramarines- ultramar system? the smurfs take it. neutral ground? gotta give it to the minotaurs, they would know every move the smurfs would make before they made them.
You assume that the Codex Astartes is rigid in the application of its combat practices. If the Ultramarines were that predictable they would not hold such an illustrious record against many recurring foes. The Tyranids, for example, would be quick to pick up upon any repetition.
Both Minotaurs and Ultramarines are Codex Chapters, the difference being what the Minotaurs "know" of the CA, the Ultramarines have "mastered".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/25 14:06:48
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