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I'm curious if this is just a local issue; are you all seeing local game stores that run tournaments banning electronic only codices? There seemed to be a backlash against GW rulesets like Death From the Skies that were direct only for a period. I know a number of stores "banned" those rules from their stores and there was much outrage in the community. Then the rules became available and no one seems to talk about it anymore.

Now we have Adepta Sororitas and various supplements that have yet to be released on paper formats. We have a local store that runs large tournaments and has a 2 day GT coming up. They've determined that only printed codices/supplements will be allows due to the challenges with army list verification. With Codex:Inquisition coming out soon that will make 2 electronic only codices. What say the tournament community, are we just "lucky" here locally, or are other venues doing similar things?

Haven't seen any bannings out here. I've seen TO's ask that if electronic codex's are brought to a tournament, that you are willing to allow your opponent to look them over as they might a paper book.

Spend the time and money to print out all the rules pages and have them bound into a folder.

I have not seen that. Sounds like a TO who does not want to spend money (cannot blame him on that) on electronic codices (if the store has the rest those might be "free". That said not sure that given Codices being released in this format that it is fair to ban them.

Nope, you just need a copy of the codex on your reader or whatever and it's cool here.

Breng77 wrote:
I have not seen that. Sounds like a TO who does not want to spend money (cannot blame him on that) on electronic codices (if the store has the rest those might be "free". That said not sure that given Codices being released in this format that it is fair to ban them.

That was my first thought, but I can't say what the actual reasoning is. I'm sad to hear that they've chosen to go this route but glad to hear that we're special.

I know the gamestore you speak of and I have spoken with the TO. There have been multiple instances in the past of people bringing in digital codicies and having them be incomplete, bad copies, or just plain wrong rules in them. I will not speak of who did this, or if it was their intent, but I persomally have played against 2 of them in tournaments and seen the wrong rules on their Ipad. Whether they knew the rules were wrong or they altered it somehow, I am unsure, but I know that something was wrong about the digital codex. (I know for a fact that Dark Eldar Archons are not Fearless, yet in one players didgital codex, it listed them as such-- just to give an example) (The other was listed for O'Vesa in the Farsight book saying he could take as many Signature systems as he wanted)

I personally would not mind if they were in the tournament or used. I think there are ways around the cheating or inserted rules, but the TO does not want to be burned. He does not have the personal funds to buy all of the digital codicies and without being able to check the rules from a hardbound book, he feels there leaves too much room for cheating.

I can see where the TO is coming from, and it is an unfortunate circumstance to be in. Telling people they cannot play an army is not something I would want the pleasure of doing. Atleast the tournament is only a Team Tournament and only 1000 points are needed.

Not a problem in our area. I have not been to any big GTs though.

The problem is people are starting to fake PDFs with what they want in them. If the TO can't verify it was actually purchased and not just downloaded he doesn't know what that player is doing. With iPads it'll say purchased books and it's all interactive on some of them. When it's just pdf on a reader who knows!

It's a hard call for a TO to make, I'd imagine, as a pirate copy might look the same as a regular one from GW. If they allow electronic copies, there is a chance it looks like they're supporting piracy. If they don't, they're the bad guys who punish players for not having books made of paper. They're damned either way. I think electronic copies SHOULD be allowed, but they should be discussed with the TO ahead of time. Discuss an electronic ahead of time? Good to go. Show up without discussing it? Not allowed. That's about as close to middle ground as I can come up with at the moment.

Interesting thoughts, all. Thanks. It looks like this (digital codex releases) is the new norm, so I hope TOs can figure this out or it is going to get ugly when people are turned away because their army is only digital (Sisters, Inquisition, whatever is next) and they can't play in a tournament.

I want to be clear, I'm not talking about electronic copies of codices, I'm talking about bonafide electronic codices (MOBI or iBooks). Yes, I know a MOBI file can be hacked, but at this time an iBook cannot, at least not any easier than replacing a page in a physical book.

Also, piracy is not the issue here, at least not with regard to this tournament, since when I inquired about why the old SoB codex would be allowed and the new one not I was pointed to a pirated scan of the White Dwarf codex on MediaFire by the store owner. I'm not complaining about this, but that seemed silly. On one hand you can't use a digital codex, but here, use this scanned copy of the old White Dwarf codex, that's fine? Maybe the answer is a pirated and verified collection of digital codices that all TOs can use... J/K.

 punchdub wrote:
Interesting thoughts, all. Thanks. It looks like this (digital codex releases) is the new norm, so I hope TOs can figure this out or it is going to get ugly when people are turned away because their army is only digital (Sisters, Inquisition, whatever is next) and they can't play in a tournament.

I want to be clear, I'm not talking about electronic copies of codices, I'm talking about bonafide electronic codices (MOBI or iBooks). Yes, I know a MOBI file can be hacked, but at this time an iBook cannot, at least not any easier than replacing a page in a physical book.

Also, piracy is not the issue here, at least not with regard to this tournament, since when I inquired about why the old SoB codex would be allowed and the new one not I was pointed to a pirated scan of the White Dwarf codex on MediaFire by the store owner. I'm not complaining about this, but that seemed silly. On one hand you can't use a digital codex, but here, use this scanned copy of the old White Dwarf codex, that's fine? Maybe the answer is a pirated and verified collection of digital codices that all TOs can use... J/K.

At this time, the TO is not allowing digital codicies because he cannot verify their validity. Having had multiple cases at tournaments and in free play days/nights that have shown up is the reason for this. I have been a victim personally, so have others. He is airing on the side of caution and would rather not have any cases show up where someone used a pirated copy or a codex with invalid information. If you have a question or want to talk with him directly, you do have the shop number. You could always call him and ask him personally.

To be fair, the store owner is not the TO nor does he have a firm grasp on the 40k ruleset and the new books coming out. He posted the link to help answer your question of where you could get the download. He didn't post it to say this is the legal copy for the tournament, since he is not the TO. He was providing excellent customer service, like always, and finding a solution to your problem that could easily be found with the help of Google. So please do not paint him in the light that you are. The sarcastic last few sentences of your post are unwarranted and he only posted the link to help.

Saying you are not complaining about it, then complaining and describing it as "silly" is pretty silly to say the least.

It seems an odd thing to do. If people are happy to had over there e-reader just as they would a book then fine.

I can understand banning PDF's and saying "official only". .mobi, epub or ibook format only, fine, but banning those seems odd. If anything it is cheaper to get all the codexes in electronic format (as they are slightly cheaper) if the TO wants to have them all to check. Or is it normal in the US for shops to have copies of the books on hand for people to reference? If what is meant by "free" is picking up a copy for sale that seems a little odd to treat a book that is for sale as a resource for the tournament.

They are going to have to change sooner or later as more and more people will be moving to electronic books and will not be wanting to buy a copy of the "real" book as well. Printing it off solves nothing. It just gives you the worst of both worlds.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
At this time, the TO is not allowing digital codicies because he cannot verify their validity.

But lists are being validated in advance, so this is one way to combat some of the issues with legit digital codices, right? Also, I hate to suggest it, but since iBooks are encrypted, they can be verified easily. So, we should be able to allow them but then we still have the issue with eBooks. I'm perfectly fine with banning scans of hard copies, but I'd like to be able to play with my $49 iBook copy that I bought legitimately.

No one banned Death from the skies, that was a publicity stunt from one store which had some pre-existing drama.

No one is banning these add-on lists. It is no different from the chapter approved days when you needed to buy a WD or the 2003 CA roundup.

I see no difference between Digital codexes or WD codexes except WD codexes were harder to get. If the person playing has the codex and can present it on demand, there is no issue.

And we all know TOs use armybuilder or something for validating lists so they don't need the codex to validate lists.

Cheaters are more rare than people assume as a general rule. Additionally, cheaters will find a way to cheat. Punishing the masses in fear of the few is a poor way to manage an event that's meant primarily to be a fun experience.

Even a cheater or two, while lamentable and worth trying to prevent and ferret out, only damages the fun of the few people they run into that actually end up feeling cheated. This may sound callous, but the point is to reinforce that you don't want to put unpleasant burdens on the vast majority of reasonable attendees who are there just to have a fun time.

To wit, we generally permit any format as long as the proper rules are being used. Just as in the past we've seen people refer to INAT or NOVA or even GW FAQ documents in an attempt to convince their opponents a ruling is different than it is in actuality in order to prey on their ignorance, the same is going to always be true for other media and information wherever possible. You'll even see people try to bluff their way through blatantly wrong codex rulings (i.e., "My Lone Wolf is T5" ... "Are you sure?" ... "Yeah I'm sure, do you want me to pull out my codex from my bag?" ... "Oh ... um, nah I guess not that just seems way powerful.").

These people are nonetheless rare (though widely spoken about when discovered), and banning peoples' paid for (or however procured) electronic dexes out of fear they may be using edited PDFs is succumbing to the fear of the few at the cost of the many.

I once was told that my digital codex (back when I made PDFs of everything.. and still do) wasn't legit cause I could edit it. Is that true? Sure I guess? but it's INCREDIBLY easy to find out its a fake by merely picking up ANOTHER copy of the book.

GW is doing well with forcing people to understand that they don't have to be scared of technology.. it's okay to use digital books, as MV said.. people cheat in MANY other ways (such as bullying people into accepting their wrong rules during a fast game).

Banning digital books is very ignorant to me of the actual problems during events.

My main gripe with the digital codices is that you're using a tablet/e-reader that only has a limited battery life. If your opponent hasn't properly charged-up their techno do-da properly, then 'blink', there goes their 'codex' right in the middle of an event and you're thus left at the mercy of their 'remembering' how everything in their codex works.

I honestly wish my local store would ban people from bringing 'digital only' copies due to this kind of issue.
If it's possible to print-out your digital codex, then IMHO it's only respectful that you do print out a hardcopy and bring it with you, just in case something unforeseen happens to your tablet/e-reader.

So if someone brought only the Space Marine digital codex would they be allowed to play?

I think tablets are just too cumbersome in the middle of a tournament and as stated above..battery life is an issue.

Or simply say that if you can't produce a copy of your book, electric or paper format, then the ruling goes against you immediately. Then if people don't charge it's a big hit for them.

I always use my e-reader at events. 10-12 hours for a day at the larger ones. Never had an issue with battery life. I do however turn off my wifi and only use it when it's essential. And even then I have book copies generally in my car just in case.

Battery life should not be a problem. IMO not having your battery charged is the same as forgetting to bring your codex.

At least digital ones stay constant and you don't get people conveniently forgetting and remembering FAQ's and erratas when it suites them.

And they are less cumbersome than a book. Much quicker when there is no more "Um... Er... I know the rule is here somewhere. Now were is the special rules section". Just search and 5 seconds later you have your answer.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Battery life should not be a problem. IMO not having your battery charged is the same as forgetting to bring your codex.

At least digital ones stay constant and you don't get people conveniently forgetting and remembering FAQ's and erratas when it suites them.

And they are less cumbersome than a book. Much quicker when there is no more "Um... Er... I know the rule is here somewhere. Now were is the special rules section". Just search and 5 seconds later you have your answer.

While I agree in theory, and certainly is the case when serious players use ereaders.. there are many examples I've seen of people having the codex up on their phones, or its not even open and then they have to load it, etc.. get a text, or have a slow ass phone. Are we lumping phones in with tablets and e-readers? I notice distinct delays with phones.

Personally I have all my PDFs synced across 6 devices so I always got rules somewhere!

lol i bring my tablet everywhere, and it lasts longer then any turny will. Plus how is it cumbersom?? it decreases the amount of books you have to carry.

I have finally ran into a TO who refuses to allow digital at their store endless someone wants to buy him a copy or print it out. which i dont agree with, TOs should not tell people they can not field their army because they dont have physical copies of the codex made, like the Inquisition.. personally i love using digitial and think it should be allowed. I also would like to see printed versions by games workshop because i enjoy collecting the books.

 Kirasu wrote:

GW is doing well with forcing people to understand that they don't have to be scared of technology.. it's okay to use digital books, as MV said.. people cheat in MANY other ways (such as bullying people into accepting their wrong rules during a fast game).

Forcing?

I only buy codecies in digital format now.
If a tourney bans digital, I won't be going.
It's that simple.

After reading this thread, and finding out that people are manipulating digital codexes to add special rules, I'm not sure I want to play someone who doesn't have a physical copy.

I can not understand a TO's idea that people are going to go to the trouble to forge a digital codex to alter the rules in some way. If somebody wants to win that badly, surely it is easier to just go and buy two or three riptides and go rape face on all of the other unfortunate armies.

 Bobaram wrote:
The problem is people are starting to fake PDFs with what they want in them. If the TO can't verify it was actually purchased and not just downloaded he doesn't know what that player is doing. With iPads it'll say purchased books and it's all interactive on some of them. When it's just pdf on a reader who knows!

Okay this makes more sense, its the people that download the crap tastic copies instead of going out and buying it, I don't blame the TO there then.

There was a guy who got booted out of the local GW a few weeks ago because he had printed out a tau codex that wasn't even the same as the hardback or ipad version. Apparently he bought it from some UK site and it was "100% GW legit". I guessing it was homebrew book that the poor guy paid for.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
I know the gamestore you speak of and I have spoken with the TO. There have been multiple instances in the past of people bringing in digital codicies and having them be incomplete, bad copies, or just plain wrong rules in them. I will not speak of who did this, or if it was their intent, but I persomally have played against 2 of them in tournaments and seen the wrong rules on their Ipad. Whether they knew the rules were wrong or they altered it somehow, I am unsure, but I know that something was wrong about the digital codex. (I know for a fact that Dark Eldar Archons are not Fearless, yet in one players didgital codex, it listed them as such-- just to give an example) (The other was listed for O'Vesa in the Farsight book saying he could take as many Signature systems as he wanted)

Well this seems to be the problem of an informed TO, there isn't a digital copy of the Dark Eldar codex.