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ive recently started my own iron hands succesor chapter called the iron smiths
they specialise in pounding the enemy to dust before the enemy can reach their battle lines. so my question is are assault centurions any good and would they fit the theme?
thanks in advance
Zinogre

In a word.....No.

I could write you an essay if you'd like, but yeah, they are bad.

In another word, hardly. Oh wait, it's nope again. I haven't used them, but their issue is that 1. They're slow, 2. No inv save at all means that ap2 or 1 will kill them easily, regardless of T 5 and 2 W, and 3. One attack base is too few for a cc unit clocking in at 60 pts/model. Even compared to tac termies, I fail to see where their offensive capability validates their points. Access to a few paltry guns doesn't cut it for me. Hammernators seem to be more worth their salt, while giving more deployment options. Heck, at least they can run...

I tried to think this through, comparing them to assault terminators.
Having a squad charge out of a Land Raider's front ramp seems very cinematic, but the rules don't stack up.
If you want to smash a bastion, yeah.
Otherwise, there are better ways to destroy artillery, and slow siege suits are only able to catch them, as everything else will just drive or walk away.

Role
I've taken a long look at them, and they just don't match up as an assault unit.
The best role I can figure for them is to replace the flamer with a melta-gun, take the hurricane bolters and use them as 65 point short range threat in the middle of the board.

Durability
65 points means your paying 32.5 points a wound on a 2+ save. That's not horrible but its not great. Its less efficient than honor guard, yet better than terminators. If you were to compare that to a 3+ save, its the same as 16.25 points spent on marines. For that extra 2.25 points your getting more CC ability and greater toughness.

You probably want to stick these guys in the center in the board in a ruin. Most weapons that ignore cover will give an armor save anyway.

It is important to note they are extremely vulnerable to STR 10 weapons. Vindicators make them sad.

Assault
The CC weapons on them are much better than TAC marines, but anything that will assault them will pound them into oblivion. This is because they only have 2 attacks each. Sure, those attacks are STR 9, AP2, but there is not enough of them to make it worthwhile. A DP, for example, will smash them apart before they can even get a single swing off.

Against non-assault based units, or weak assault units they will plow through them. An example of this would be dire avengers or guardians.

They are very vulnerable to tarpitting. 30 ork boys will kill them or just grind them away for the entire game.

Dakka
A hurricane bolter is 33% more effective than bringing 3 marines on foot. The melta gun is TL, so it has a 30% to hit a flyer. Therefore each assault centurion is packing as much firepower as 5.32 marines. That's actually a surprising amount of dakka per cent.

Chapter Tactics
The best chapter tactic I can see for them is Iron Hands (6+ FNP) or BT (AW, Crusader)

Slow and Painful
The problem with this unit is the same as that girl I dated in college -- geography. They are very slow, and therefore have a hard time getting to that mid/short range. Normal marines can take a drop pod. These guys are just chugging at 6" a turn and cannot run. This means to get to the center of the board it will take the 2 turns.

You might want to drop them in from a storm raven. While that is more points, its not like the storm raven is a bad investment.

Summary
On a per-point basis the assault cent is actually pretty darn shooty and decent in assault. They are not horrible on resilience per point. If you have a plan to tackle their problem with speed they could be useful.

They are not assault units. Trying to use them to shove down the throat of your opponent is full of fail. They are incorrectly named in the codex. Instead they should be considered short range shooty units with some assault capabilities.

They are the mutilators of the spacemarines - don't accomplish much, but have a steep cost.

 gossipmeng wrote:
They are the mutilators of the spacemarines - don't accomplish much, but have a steep cost.

Except mutilators cannot bring a hurricane bolter and a meltagun.

3 of them coming out of a landraider with them having melta gun upgrades and a chapin. Yes they are hellishly good then. If you take a crusader/redeemer, switch to having hurricane bolters on them.

No, they're not.

Centurions in general are fairly overpriced and outperformed by Terminators or Devastators in any role.

 juraigamer wrote:
3 of them coming out of a landraider with them having melta gun upgrades and a chapin. Yes they are hellishly good then. If you take a crusader/redeemer, switch to having hurricane bolters on them.

Except that a sternguard squad doing the same are better and cheaper.

 gossipmeng wrote:
They are the mutilators of the spacemarines - don't accomplish much, but have a steep cost.

Except I can bring myself to play mutilators. MoK in a LR with a Khornate Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury goes a long way in making them at least better.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Except that a sternguard squad doing the same are better and cheaper.

Sternguard fill a much different role. Sternguard are good for flexable utility, where the Assault Centurions seem to be best used as raw firepower with some teeth in assault.

So how many bolters sternguard + combi-meltas can you buy for 270 points? You can get 10 sternguard with 2 combi-meltas.
For those same points we can buy 4 assault centurions with hurricane bolters and melta guns (270)

The sternguard have 20 varied shots that they can deliver, and can take 30 wounds from scatter lasers before they fall over dead. They also have 2 melta gun shots they can make during the game. If assaulted they are weaker than grey hunters.

The assault centurians will have 24 TL bolters (which is the same as 30 non-TL bolters) and 4 melta guns which can be used every turn. They can take 48 wounds from scatter lasers before falling over dead. In assault they can swing 9 STR 9 AP2 armorbane attacks.

So which squad is better? Well they fill different roles. As mentioned. sternguard (are awesome) but their best role is to kill MCs, shoot at long range, or at targets behind cover. They can shoot AP3 shots which can decimate MEQ. The basic role is that they are extremely utilitarian.
On paper, assault centurians seem to be more short/mid dakka oriented with some CC element backing it. They are NOT units to shove down someones throat and expect to spank wraithknights.

The biggest problem with centurians is mobility. I'm not sold on a land raider as the best solution at this time. I am still looking for a way to inflitrate or scout them. I think that allies will be required for this.

78 bucks for three models that are poor excuses for assault units. Save your money and buy 5 assault terminators, or some Sternguard.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Role
I've taken a long look at them, and they just don't match up as an assault unit.
The best role I can figure for them is to replace the flamer with a melta-gun, take the hurricane bolters and use them as 65 point short range threat in the middle of the board.

Durability
65 points means your paying 32.5 points a wound on a 2+ save. That's not horrible but its not great. Its less efficient than honor guard, yet better than terminators. If you were to compare that to a 3+ save, its the same as 16.25 points spent on marines. For that extra 2.25 points your getting more CC ability and greater toughness.

You probably want to stick these guys in the center in the board in a ruin. Most weapons that ignore cover will give an armor save anyway.

It is important to note they are extremely vulnerable to STR 10 weapons. Vindicators make them sad.

Assault
The CC weapons on them are much better than TAC marines, but anything that will assault them will pound them into oblivion. This is because they only have 2 attacks each. Sure, those attacks are STR 9, AP2, but there is not enough of them to make it worthwhile. A DP, for example, will smash them apart before they can even get a single swing off.

Against non-assault based units, or weak assault units they will plow through them. An example of this would be dire avengers or guardians.

They are very vulnerable to tarpitting. 30 ork boys will kill them or just grind them away for the entire game.

Dakka
A hurricane bolter is 33% more effective than bringing 3 marines on foot. The melta gun is TL, so it has a 30% to hit a flyer. Therefore each assault centurion is packing as much firepower as 5.32 marines. That's actually a surprising amount of dakka per cent.

Chapter Tactics
The best chapter tactic I can see for them is Iron Hands (6+ FNP) or BT (AW, Crusader)

Slow and Painful
The problem with this unit is the same as that girl I dated in college -- geography. They are very slow, and therefore have a hard time getting to that mid/short range. Normal marines can take a drop pod. These guys are just chugging at 6" a turn and cannot run. This means to get to the center of the board it will take the 2 turns.

You might want to drop them in from a storm raven. While that is more points, its not like the storm raven is a bad investment.

Summary
On a per-point basis the assault cent is actually pretty darn shooty and decent in assault. They are not horrible on resilience per point. If you have a plan to tackle their problem with speed they could be useful.

They are not assault units. Trying to use them to shove down the throat of your opponent is full of fail. They are incorrectly named in the codex. Instead they should be considered short range shooty units with some assault capabilities.

This is actually some pretty interesting math! It is certainly an interesting perspective to look at.

I was actually quite surprised when I ran the math on the unit. My knee-jerk reaction, like everyone else was to look at the unit and say "Horribad!"
Then I started looking more carefully at their options and I think that you could make them squad work.

As mentioned, the trick is getting them to the battle. A short range of 12"-24" is fairly limited. You can get them to the center of the board, but they will take 2 turns to get there, so they probably will not be shooting until turn 2 or 3, and will be vulnerable while they walk upstream.

Given the number of TL melta shots in a squad you can project a nice threat to anything nearby. You can shoot down flyers with those, as you will be hitting with 1 melta for every 3 cents on average. That can be quite a surprise to a necron NS.

That's why I'm thinking of a stormraven. You can fly the stormraven past where you want them to be, and then deep strike your cents roughly to where you want them. That way they can being shooting on turn 2 (or whenever you get your cents in).

As mentioned, I'm also brainstorming for other ways to inflitrate/scout them. A scout is all that would really be needed. Khan can do it with land raiders dedicated transports, but land raiders are not as useful as a storm raven. (which can actually produce a ton of dakka)

If a future suppliment allows you to take assault cents as troops then they could be awesome to field.

The Stormraven could drop the Centurions and an Ironclad Dreadnought down your opponent's throat ... a nasty distraction (even if expensive!) indeed!

 mazzHammer wrote:
The Stormraven could drop the Centurions and an Ironclad Dreadnought down your opponent's throat ... a nasty distraction (even if expensive!) indeed!

Key phrase: "if expensive". Yes, Centurions work. No, they do not work well enough to justify their cost. Everything you can do with a Centurion can be done cheaper and just as well (if not better) by Terminators, Veterans, or Devastators. Not to mention that Assault Centurions' lack of Deep Strike and Invulnerable saves mean they're utterly ineffective unless you stick them in a Stormraven or a Land Raider, they're actually a sneaky little plot to get people to buy more big scary transports.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Key phrase: "if expensive". Yes, Centurions work. No, they do not work well enough to justify their cost. Everything you can do with a Centurion can be done cheaper and just as well (if not better) by Terminators, Veterans, or Devastators.

Are you sure on this? Assault Centurions are closer to tactical terminators than assault terminators -- and are a lot better at it. 90 points on a dev cent gets you 2 heavy weapons, one of which is TL. Thats 45 per heavy weapon. Sure devastators can get them for less but devastators are a lot more fragile, cannot move and shoot, and cannot split fire.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not to mention that Assault Centurions' lack of Deep Strike and Invulnerable saves mean they're utterly ineffective unless you stick them in a Stormraven or a Land Raider, they're actually a sneaky little plot to get people to buy more big scary transports.

I think that your under the mis-assumption of many people -- which is that Assault Centurions are designed to assault. Their role is short-mid ranged fire support.

And drilling people for ST 9 AP 2 at init 4 never hurts just in case.

LOL, yea the drilling does not hurt. A dedicated assault unit will probably still take down the centurians. I'm thinking of seekers or DPs smashing.

However, a lot of other units will have problems with them.

labmouse42 wrote:I was actually quite surprised when I ran the math on the unit. My knee-jerk reaction, like everyone else was to look at the unit and say "Horribad!"
Then I started looking more carefully at their options and I think that you could make them squad work.

As mentioned, the trick is getting them to the battle. A short range of 12"-24" is fairly limited. You can get them to the center of the board, but they will take 2 turns to get there, so they probably will not be shooting until turn 2 or 3, and will be vulnerable while they walk upstream.

Given the number of TL melta shots in a squad you can project a nice threat to anything nearby. You can shoot down flyers with those, as you will be hitting with 1 melta for every 3 cents on average. That can be quite a surprise to a necron NS.

That's why I'm thinking of a stormraven. You can fly the stormraven past where you want them to be, and then deep strike your cents roughly to where you want them. That way they can being shooting on turn 2 (or whenever you get your cents in).

As mentioned, I'm also brainstorming for other ways to inflitrate/scout them. A scout is all that would really be needed. Khan can do it with land raiders dedicated transports, but land raiders are not as useful as a storm raven. (which can actually produce a ton of dakka)

If a future suppliment allows you to take assault cents as troops then they could be awesome to field.

labmouse42 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Key phrase: "if expensive". Yes, Centurions work. No, they do not work well enough to justify their cost. Everything you can do with a Centurion can be done cheaper and just as well (if not better) by Terminators, Veterans, or Devastators.

Are you sure on this? Assault Centurions are closer to tactical terminators than assault terminators -- and are a lot better at it. 90 points on a dev cent gets you 2 heavy weapons, one of which is TL. Thats 45 per heavy weapon. Sure devastators can get them for less but devastators are a lot more fragile, cannot move and shoot, and cannot split fire.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not to mention that Assault Centurions' lack of Deep Strike and Invulnerable saves mean they're utterly ineffective unless you stick them in a Stormraven or a Land Raider, they're actually a sneaky little plot to get people to buy more big scary transports.

I think that your under the mis-assumption of many people -- which is that Assault Centurions are designed to assault. Their role is short-mid ranged fire support.

I agree, they are definitely a mid ranged firepower squad with assault capabilities than they are a dedicated CC unit.

You mentioned scouting a White Scars LR, but if a Scout is all you need just attatching a White Scars Bike IC will do the Trick. Though, thats a better tactic for Grav Dev Cents than Assault Cents.

If only they were merely relentless, not slow and purposeful. The amount of Overwatch and the ability to Run would greatly increase their utility.

 Zagman wrote:
If only they were merely relentless, not slow and purposeful. The amount of Overwatch and the ability to Run would greatly increase their utility.

Agreed. I've been putting a lot of thought into how to make them better.

You know, as an off shoot thought -- if you attach a MotF + conversion beamer to a cent squad, he can move and shoot it.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Key phrase: "if expensive". Yes, Centurions work. No, they do not work well enough to justify their cost. Everything you can do with a Centurion can be done cheaper and just as well (if not better) by Terminators, Veterans, or Devastators.

Are you sure on this? Assault Centurions are closer to tactical terminators than assault terminators -- and are a lot better at it. 90 points on a dev cent gets you 2 heavy weapons, one of which is TL. Thats 45 per heavy weapon. Sure devastators can get them for less but devastators are a lot more fragile, cannot move and shoot, and cannot split fire.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not to mention that Assault Centurions' lack of Deep Strike and Invulnerable saves mean they're utterly ineffective unless you stick them in a Stormraven or a Land Raider, they're actually a sneaky little plot to get people to buy more big scary transports.

I think that your under the mis-assumption of many people -- which is that Assault Centurions are designed to assault. Their role is short-mid ranged fire support.

The most serious problem with Devastator Centurions is that they don't take casualties well. Your hypothetical 270pt Devastator Centurion squad is all well and good, but I can run a Devastator squad with four guns for about two-thirds the price of your giant fancy squad with six, and the other guy has to deal six wounds before the guns start to go away on my Devastators versus two on your Centurions. Devastator Centurions are big, flashy, and expensive, if you're enthusiastic about the models I'm not trying to tell you that you can't use them, I'm trying to tell you that unless you're playing a 2,000pt+ game Devastators are a much more efficient option in terms of the amount of firepower they bring to the table and how many hits they can take. The only situation in which Devastator Centurions are strictly better for their points is if the other guy is a cheesedick running a three-Heldrake list, and even then I'm not quite sure that sacrificing the ability to run flakk missiles for a 2+ save is a better option. As for moving and shooting, I've found that becomes a non-issue if you deploy carefully, and as for splitting fire with Devastators it's much easier to get two small units to shoot at different things and prevent the other guy from locking them both down at once in assault or killing them both at the same time with his super-unit.

Let's go see about Assault Centurions now. I'd honestly rather compare them to Sternguard than Tactical Terminators if you would rather I estimate their effectiveness as short-ranged fire support; 210pts buys you three twin-linked meltaguns, 212pts buys me two meltaguns and five combi-meltas taped to Specialist Ammunition bolters. Guess which one of us can kill more stuff? And more different kinds of stuff, for that matter. And who is faster? Who can fit into more different transport options?

Let me clarify my earlier remarks: Centurions are expensive. They're big, shiny, flashy, and brutal. All this means they're a big, expensive fire magnet that isn't going to survive two turns with no transport, Invulnerable save, or way of getting to where it needs to be easily. You spend 270pts on your three Devastator Centurions, I zip a flying Daemon Prince into their faces and turn them inside out. You spend over five hundred points on a Land Raider and a cargo of Assault Centurions, I pop the Land Raider with a Prism Cannon turn one (you laugh, it'll happen one in six shots) and they have to walk while being slaughtered by long-range fire. If you're playing an Apocalypse game where you can afford to lose your shiny 3-500pt units, then all's well and good, but if you're playing a smaller game you'll always want the cheaper, more cost-effective units that don't have a sign on them saying "Kill me and you've dropped a third of the army already!"

The concept of taking one big expensive unit and expecting it to clean up like this is sometimes called a 'Deathstar'; it works in Warhammer Fantasy because unit size is very important there, it works in 40k when your unit is stupidly tough. Two-Wound Paladins with Feel No Pain and 4+ Invulnerable saves are stupidly tough. Space Marine Command Squads on Bikes with T5, Storm Shields, and the ability to move 24" a turn are stupidly tough. Ravenwing bubbles with 3+ Cover saves from the Darkshroud are stupidly tough. Two-Wound T5 Centurions with no Invulnerable save, no Feel No Pain, and no way to move faster than a walk? Not tough enough.

Im curious if anyone has done the math.
5 assault terminators with TH/SS is 225 points
3 Assault Cents is what 195 points I think?
Roughly equal?

Which wins in a head to head fight? with Cents swinging first, they might be able to tackle a Assault Termie Squad...and would make mincemeat of Honorguard.

I think they'd do fine against other dedicated assault units, the T5 with at initiative i think is powerful.
They'd kill death company with ease, since all the weapons that'd ignore their armor, go at i1 for the most part.

I think delivery is more the issue?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The most serious problem with Devastator Centurions is that they don't take casualties well. Your hypothetical 270pt Devastator Centurion squad is all well and good, but I can run a Devastator squad with four guns

Lets make sure were comparing apples to apples here. A devastator squad 10 bodies with 2 LCs and 2 MLs costs 210 points. 2 Devastator Centurions put out more firepower at a cost of 180 points. (This is because a TL gun is 33% more effective than a non-TL gun). This means the Devastator Centurion's are cheaper per-point on offense.

Now lets look at the resilience of the two.
A bolter round has a 1/9 (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/3) chance to kill a MEQ. Therefore to kill all 6 bullet catchers, a total of 54 bolter rounds will need to be shot. Now this is not 100% accurate as combat squadding them will lower the threshold, furthermore when they do start taking damage on heavy weapons they take hits quickly.
A bolter round has a 1/27 (2/3 * 1/3 * 1/6) chance to wound a centurion. Therefore a 54 wounds will need to be done to the centurians before a loss of firepower occurs. Unlike the devastators, the Centurions will keep 1/2 of the firepower until another 54 rounds pound into them. Against small arms fire, Centurions are the better buy.

You will see that trend until your shot at by STR 7 weapons. At that point the Devastators edge out, since the toughness advantage of the Centurions is negated. If your meta is nothing but wave serpent and 'cron scythe spam, then Devastators are more resilient on a point for point basis. Like all things it really depends on your meta.

Unless there are helldrakes involved. Then there is every reason in the world to take Cents.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let's go see about Assault Centurions now. I'd honestly rather compare them to Sternguard than Tactical Terminators if you would rather I estimate their effectiveness as short-ranged fire support; 210pts buys you three twin-linked meltaguns, 212pts buys me two meltaguns and five combi-meltas taped to Specialist Ammunition bolters.

You missed the other element of fire the Assault Centurions have, which is 9 TL bolters. Remember how TL shots are 1/3 more effective than normal bolters? That's the same as 12 bolters. So when comparing their damage you need to consider that extra firepower.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Guess which one of us can kill more stuff? And more different kinds of stuff, for that matter. And who is faster? Who can fit into more different transport options?

Guess which one will stick around longer. Which one can deliver STR 9 AP2 hits to the face of anything that gets to close.

Sternguard are great. Don't get me wrong, they are just a different kind of unit.
Also, thanks for the discussion. I love talking math with people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Im curious if anyone has done the math.
5 assault terminators with TH/SS is 225 points
3 Assault Cents is what 195 points I think?
Roughly equal?

Well, the problem is the assault terminators are going to be shot by bolters and meltas on their way in. Once they get in, they will be pounding cents into the ground.

That's the point though -- cents are designed for short ranged fire support and some assault ability. They are not prime assault units like assault termies are. Comparing them in a void like that won't really give you a good picture of them.

They best use of them I can see is putting them in a Land Raider, use White Scars Chapter Tactics and take Khan, this all gives the Centurians the Scouts rule which allows their DT Land Raider to outflank.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
They best use of them I can see is putting them in a Land Raider, use White Scars Chapter Tactics and take Khan, this all gives the Centurians the Scouts rule which allows their DT Land Raider to outflank.

That's overkill. Just put Khan on a bike with them and scout with them.

Khan lets any model with a bike and white scars CT get scout. He qualifies for this.
Any model with scout confers it to the unit.

Ergo, you can scout up your cents. This is a big deal, as thats one less turn of moving 6" before they can get in fire range.

I've been looking at investing into a squad of assault cents for my IH army. I already been toying with the idea of Ironclads being dropped off by stormravens, so in games of 1750+ having a unit of assault cents to accompany the ironclad in is feeling like a super nice combo for me.

The short of it from a numbers perspective:

Stormraven has a TL-Multimelta, and a TL Assault cannon/lascannon, the ironclad is rocking a chainfist/DCCW, with a meltagun and a heavy flamer, and the 4 AssCents have 4 tl-meltaguns, 4 hurrican bolters and basically are 4 S9 chainfists. With the IH chapter tactics, the Dread and stormraven get IWND, and the cents get that lovely 6+ FNP. On their own, all of these things are manageable, but when all 3 come at you at once, for rougly the same cost as a unit of 8 TH/SS termies in a LRC, but you get with more ranged firepower and roughly the same amount of survivability, I think that these things are going to be the sort of secret-ninja awesome unit that more and more people will use as batreps/grapevine/etc begin to show their actual viability.

I plan on using the aforementioned combo in a game tomorrow, I'll be sure to relay it's viability. Also, just so it's known, the rest of my IH is drop pod focused, so hopefully it will all go well.

What about attaching a librarian with Gate of infinity for transport and Telekinetic Dome for the invulnerable save. Although Endurance would be incredible for Centurions. I don't think SM:U&F can take IC apothecaries like Blood Angels can, if the could that would give them a huge resistance to damage.