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I just hope we don't end up with all xenos not getting one because they can't take allies in the first place, so we have to give armies who COULD take allies a bonus XD.

Here's a question, and I'm sorry because it's definitely a bit doomy and gloomy.

It seems these doctrine equivalents are specifically to reward mono-faction builds.

Are we less likely to see them on xenos because they have soup armies far less often?

Idk what the tourney scene is like so maybe that's a thing, just wondering out loud.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

I just hope we don't end up with all xenos not getting one because they can't take allies in the first place, so we have to give armies who COULD take allies a bonus XD.

Here's a question, and I'm sorry because it's definitely a bit doomy and gloomy.

It seems these doctrine equivalents are specifically to reward mono-faction builds.

Are we less likely to see them on xenos because they have soup armies far less often?

Idk what the tourney scene is like so maybe that's a thing, just wondering out loud.

That's a valid question, although Orks, Necrons and Tau are the only factions with no allies. You'd expect them to just have marginally better rules rather than something spelling it out.

 Kanluwen wrote:

They also didn't get fullup codices. Psychic Awakening is, despite people continually insisting, not updating our codices. It's adding extraneous stuff.

Well, the prediction was made in large part on Blood Angels and now Grey Knights getting Doctrine-equivalents in ... drum rolls ... Psychic Awakening.

Also, there is no second wave or 8.5 series of Codexes for everyone. Marines got an update, but there is no pattern. It’s just a one-off alongside loads of new models. But there is no “second generation” of Codexes for everyone. There is no “new” game-strength level for which Nu-Marines are somehow the first entry instead of being simply a game-writers screw-up.

PA is the best most armies can hope for until 9th.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

They also didn't get fullup codices. Psychic Awakening is, despite people continually insisting, not updating our codices. It's adding extraneous stuff.

Well, the prediction was made in large part on Blood Angels and now Grey Knights getting Doctrine-equivalents in ... drum rolls ... Psychic Awakening.

Also, there is no second wave or 8.5 series of Codexes for everyone. Marines got an update, but there is no pattern. It’s just a one-off alongside loads of new models. But there is no “second generation” of Codexes for everyone. There is no “new” game-strength level for which Nu-Marines are somehow the first entry instead of being simply a game-writers screw-up.

PA is the best most armies can hope for until 9th.

Yeah I was beating that "it's not a codex" drum for a while, but I'll go ahead and say I was wrong, there's definitely some more expansive rules releases for some factions and not others.

That being said these are all "Space Marine" subfactions, so they're just being caught up to the parent codex. That's my line and I'm sticking unreasonably to it.

Honestly I think 9th's right around the corner. Might even be announced at Adepticon. SO we might be seeing newer better codexes sooner than you think.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

I just hope we don't end up with all xenos not getting one because they can't take allies in the first place, so we have to give armies who COULD take allies a bonus XD.

Here's a question, and I'm sorry because it's definitely a bit doomy and gloomy.

It seems these doctrine equivalents are specifically to reward mono-faction builds.

Are we less likely to see them on xenos because they have soup armies far less often?

Idk what the tourney scene is like so maybe that's a thing, just wondering out loud.

I mean...no. Pretty much all armies that have access to allies have been using them except for in those instances where the only allies available (GSC in the Index post-tactical reserves rule while Nids had their codex, for example, or Ynnari pre-codexes) were strictly worse in every way than one other faction.

Most competitive aeldari lists use allies. Heck most Necron, Tau and Ork competitive lists use allies, by mixing subfactions to get the best rules. You know how Doctrines were supposed to be a fix for that too?

In my relatively casual club it's a different story. There are I think 2 regular players who use any allies at all, and mixing subfactions is rare. Most people just played with their chosen subfaction before doctrines, and after doctrines the only thing that happened was a massive buff to marines that drove nearly everyone not playing marines out.

I hope they come back. The two SOB players did, after they finally got a functional codex. So, hopefully we see Tsons and GK again after this update.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

I just hope we don't end up with all xenos not getting one because they can't take allies in the first place, so we have to give armies who COULD take allies a bonus XD.

Here's a question, and I'm sorry because it's definitely a bit doomy and gloomy.

It seems these doctrine equivalents are specifically to reward mono-faction builds.

Are we less likely to see them on xenos because they have soup armies far less often?

Idk what the tourney scene is like so maybe that's a thing, just wondering out loud.

I mean...no. Pretty much all armies that have access to allies have been using them except for in those instances where the only allies available (GSC in the Index post-tactical reserves rule while Nids had their codex, for example, or Ynnari pre-codexes) were strictly worse in every way than one other faction.

Most competitive aeldari lists use allies. Heck most Necron, Tau and Ork competitive lists use allies, by mixing subfactions to get the best rules. You know how Doctrines were supposed to be a fix for that too?

I was under the impression that we had in fact seen more mono-faction SM lists in the tourneys. So wouldn't that be considered a fix?

the_scotsman wrote:


The adaptive biologies are replacements for relics. They affect a single unit (or big monster) and you exchange your relic for it. It isn't a doctrine, any way you slice it.

I am sorry to say that you're wrong. They're replacements for warlord traits. You still get your relics, but you trade your warlord trait to use these new rules, which is actually a good thing.

PA is definitely not a codex update for all non marine armies. We know that the new codici are defined by the anti soup buffs, and no non-marine faction in PA got it.

Lemondish wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


The adaptive biologies are replacements for relics. They affect a single unit (or big monster) and you exchange your relic for it. It isn't a doctrine, any way you slice it.

I am sorry to say that you're wrong. They're replacements for warlord traits. You still get your relics, but you trade your warlord trait to use these new rules, which is actually a good thing.

Well then that makes me sad.

Lemondish wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


The adaptive biologies are replacements for relics. They affect a single unit (or big monster) and you exchange your relic for it. It isn't a doctrine, any way you slice it.

I am sorry to say that you're wrong. They're replacements for warlord traits. You still get your relics, but you trade your warlord trait to use these new rules, which is actually a good thing.

Yeah, you're right - I had that mixed up. One of the two "you get one" things. Not a doctrine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

I just hope we don't end up with all xenos not getting one because they can't take allies in the first place, so we have to give armies who COULD take allies a bonus XD.

Here's a question, and I'm sorry because it's definitely a bit doomy and gloomy.

It seems these doctrine equivalents are specifically to reward mono-faction builds.

Are we less likely to see them on xenos because they have soup armies far less often?

Idk what the tourney scene is like so maybe that's a thing, just wondering out loud.

I mean...no. Pretty much all armies that have access to allies have been using them except for in those instances where the only allies available (GSC in the Index post-tactical reserves rule while Nids had their codex, for example, or Ynnari pre-codexes) were strictly worse in every way than one other faction.

Most competitive aeldari lists use allies. Heck most Necron, Tau and Ork competitive lists use allies, by mixing subfactions to get the best rules. You know how Doctrines were supposed to be a fix for that too?

I was under the impression that we had in fact seen more mono-faction SM lists in the tourneys. So wouldn't that be considered a fix?

Sure. If soup is a problem, monofaction bonuses appear to have been a solution.

They were also a solution to seeing any faction other than marines Tau and Eldar, so maybe not the best solution possible?

Again: I'm hopeful that if all the factions get mono-bonuses, we'll be back in the fairly balanced state we were in just with less soup lists. That'd be great. But I do find it real weird that the faction that most got souped to hell (CSM) got no bonus, and the marine faction that most got souped (Blood Angels) got an allowance to be taken with other marine allies.

If we start to see GK DA and Tsons after this update, it'll be the best PA book yet, by far.

And please, please, I'm begging you GW, everyone understood how much it sucked that 33% of the marine codex units could not have chapter tactics, we all agreed it needed to be fixed. PLEASE do the same thing for GSC.

Non-character units in the GSC codex: 13

Non-character units that can use their chapter tactics: 5

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Yeah I was beating that "it's not a codex" drum for a while, but I'll go ahead and say I was wrong, there's definitely some more expansive rules releases for some factions and not others.

That being said these are all "Space Marine" subfactions, so they're just being caught up to the parent codex. That's my line and I'm sticking unreasonably to it.

Honestly I think 9th's right around the corner. Might even be announced at Adepticon. SO we might be seeing newer better codexes sooner than you think.

Agreed. I also think that for some of these factions some of these PA rules are beta versions of what we'll get in updated 9E codexes, while others will be a much longer-term thing. Hypothetically speaking, Craftworlds could see a revised codex in 8-10 months while BA keep using these rules for 2-3 years. It'll depend on who GW have new models in development for.

Spoletta wrote:
PA is definitely not a codex update for all non marine armies. We know that the new codici are defined by the anti soup buffs, and no non-marine faction in PA got it.

How do you “know”.

There are no new Codexes.

If there were, it’s improbable they’d all have a doctrines-mono-factions-equivalent.

It’s a random one-off thing GW did for Marines to go along with the new model range. That’s it. The end.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


The adaptive biologies are replacements for relics. They affect a single unit (or big monster) and you exchange your relic for it. It isn't a doctrine, any way you slice it.

I am sorry to say that you're wrong. They're replacements for warlord traits. You still get your relics, but you trade your warlord trait to use these new rules, which is actually a good thing.

Well then that makes me sad.

To clarify, you can:

Use one adaptive physiology instead of a warlord trait for free

Use one adaptive physiology and a warlord trait for 1 CP

Use two adaptive physiologies for 1 CP

Which is still cool because Tyranid codex warlord traits are largely ass, and adaptive physiologies are pretty good.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

How do you “know”.

There are no new Codexes.

If there were, it’s improbable they’d all have a doctrines-mono-factions-equivalent.

It’s a random one-off thing GW did for Marines to go along with the new model range. That’s it. The end.

Cool, so Sisters of Battle didn't just get a codex with a similar system?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
PA is definitely not a codex update for all non marine armies. We know that the new codici are defined by the anti soup buffs, and no non-marine faction in PA got it.

How do you “know”.

There are no new Codexes.

If there were, it’s improbable they’d all have a doctrines-mono-factions-equivalent.

It’s a random one-off thing GW did for Marines to go along with the new model range. That’s it. The end.

And sisters.

And grey knights.

And thousand sons.

They're all different rules, but they're still army-wide bonuses you get on top of chapter tactics for selecting only one faction and only one <subfaction> for your whole army.

 xttz wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Yeah I was beating that "it's not a codex" drum for a while, but I'll go ahead and say I was wrong, there's definitely some more expansive rules releases for some factions and not others.

That being said these are all "Space Marine" subfactions, so they're just being caught up to the parent codex. That's my line and I'm sticking unreasonably to it.

Honestly I think 9th's right around the corner. Might even be announced at Adepticon. SO we might be seeing newer better codexes sooner than you think.

Agreed. I also think that for some of these factions some of these PA rules are beta versions of what we'll get in updated 9E codexes, while others will be a much longer-term thing. Hypothetically speaking, Craftworlds could see a revised codex in 8-10 months while BA keep using these rules for 2-3 years. It'll depend on who GW have new models in development for.

I keep thinking that to myself. Some have theorized the SM codex is the first of 9th edition's, or at least "9th compatible".

Which means in like 2-3 years it'll come back around and we'll all be complaining about how bad SM are and how badly they've got the "early codex syndrome"

the_scotsman wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
PA is definitely not a codex update for all non marine armies. We know that the new codici are defined by the anti soup buffs, and no non-marine faction in PA got it.

How do you “know”.

There are no new Codexes.

If there were, it’s improbable they’d all have a doctrines-mono-factions-equivalent.

It’s a random one-off thing GW did for Marines to go along with the new model range. That’s it. The end.

And sisters.

And grey knights.

And thousand sons.

They're all different rules, but they're still army-wide bonuses you get on top of chapter tactics for selecting only one faction and only one <subfaction> for your whole army.

In before "but they all wear power armour so they're just marines".

I'm not a GK player but their changes seem a pretty decent buff tbh, permanent cover with -1 to hit is nice.

I really liked that story. It does a really good job at showing what a terror Death Guard are without making the T'au seem incompetent, a rare thing in WH40k lore.

 Jidmah wrote:
I really liked that story. It does a really good job at showing what a terror Death Guard are without making the T'au seem incompetent, a rare thing in WH40k lore.

Almost a reasonable person's reaction if they have no real idea what Chaos is or what it's capable of.

In a lot of ways the Tau are almost the audience stand-in, I love it.

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not a GK player but their changes seem a pretty decent buff tbh, permanent cover with -1 to hit is nice.

I'm a GK player, and i feel the same way about these buffs as i did every other marine update. SMs were a total joke before the new codices, and they totally deserved it.
I think people are underestimating how good that S8 2MDG cannon is going to be for taking out, well, anything.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
PA is definitely not a codex update for all non marine armies. We know that the new codici are defined by the anti soup buffs, and no non-marine faction in PA got it.

How do you “know”.

There are no new Codexes.

If there were, it’s improbable they’d all have a doctrines-mono-factions-equivalent.

It’s a random one-off thing GW did for Marines to go along with the new model range. That’s it. The end.

And sisters.

And grey knights.

And thousand sons.

They're all different rules, but they're still army-wide bonuses you get on top of chapter tactics for selecting only one faction and only one <subfaction> for your whole army.

In before "but they all wear power armour so they're just marines".

I'm not a GK player but their changes seem a pretty decent buff tbh, permanent cover with -1 to hit is nice.

It's not permanent -1 to hit, it gives them cover in the open, and -1 to hit if they're on terrain (ie if they would already have cover).

Honestly, it seems really really good. The only thing that could ruin it is if the swapper spell is really tough to cast, like a WC8 or something (which GK would have to roll a 7 for). You need it to be a super reliable swap from turn to turn, because in most games depending on your army setup it's gonna be

turn 1: Sneaky Knights

Turn 2: Stabby Knights/Shooty Special Gun Knights/Smiteyknights

Turn 3: Swap to whatever you need, probably either Stabby Knights or back to Sneaky Knights to close out the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not a GK player but their changes seem a pretty decent buff tbh, permanent cover with -1 to hit is nice.

I'm a GK player, and i feel the same way about these buffs as i did every other marine update. SMs were a total joke before the new codices, and they totally deserved it.
I think people are underestimating how good that S8 2MDG cannon is going to be for taking out, well, anything.

I think it depends on just what your army looks like. A typical current GK list with 3x dreadknights, draigo and a paladin squad is definitely going to go for the melee one. A MSU spam list is going to get mileage from damage 2 smites. And a list with tons of psi weapons is definitely gonna want the +damage psi guns.

Are incinerators psiguns too? or just cannons/lencers? I assume they're not. Poor incinerators, redheaded stepchild since 8th dropped lol.

Soooooooo new strat where GK can land 3" from an enemy unit but can't charge.

Sounds mean with units that have flamers and/or Smite-adjacent powers.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
Soooooooo new strat where GK can land 3" from an enemy unit but can't charge.

Sounds mean with units that have flamers and/or Smite-adjacent powers.

Purifiers just got a lot more interesting. They get to double up on psi heavy weapons and the D6+1 Smite looks guuud.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
Soooooooo new strat where GK can land 3" from an enemy unit but can't charge.

Sounds mean with units that have flamers and/or Smite-adjacent powers.

Purifiers just got a lot more interesting. They get to double up on psi heavy weapons and the D6+1 Smite looks guuud.

Good distraction Carnifex too. Too close to be able to escape a next-round charge in most cases. Either have to focus fire or counter charge.

From Facebook

Honestly I think 9th's right around the corner. Might even be announced at Adepticon. SO we might be seeing newer better codexes sooner than you think.

So has GW finally thrown in the towel? I thought 8th was supposed to be the final edition/incarnation of 40K and "we are just going to keep tweaking 8th every year and not make any new editions"

or is 9th supposed to be 0.8.25 like some video game update?

 Galas wrote:
From Facebook

Spoiler:

Interesting. You do have to take a Brother-Captain if you want to use a squad of purifiers in this way, though.

MORE THAN 3"

Purifiers have a 3" smite.

Same as the whole "9" range weapon can't hit something after deep strike."

the_scotsman wrote:

 Galas wrote:
From Facebook

Spoiler:

Interesting. You do have to take a Brother-Captain if you want to use a squad of purifiers in this way, though.

MORE THAN 3"

Purifiers have a 3" smite.

Same as the whole "9" range weapon can't hit something after deep strike."

I don't think it works anyway. The Dynamic Insertion strategem only works on a unit that has been set-up using the Teleport Strike ability.

A unit of Purifiers set-up using the Teleportarium strategem isn't being set up using the Teleport Strike ability and isn't a valid target for Dynamic Insertion.

 Asmodai wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Galas wrote:
From Facebook

Spoiler:

Interesting. You do have to take a Brother-Captain if you want to use a squad of purifiers in this way, though.

MORE THAN 3"

Purifiers have a 3" smite.

Same as the whole "9" range weapon can't hit something after deep strike."

I don't think it works anyway. The Dynamic Insertion strategem only works on a unit that has been set-up using the Teleport Strike ability.

A unit of Purifiers set-up using the Teleportarium strategem isn't being set up using the Teleport Strike ability and isn't a valid target for Dynamic Insertion.

Ah, yep. You are correct there. Hmm. So it's pretty much just a "so you say you took Incinerators" stratagem. That's pretty weak tbh.

sadly the same is true for Purgation Squad so the 2 ideal targets for that stratagem are some of the only ones in our codex that cant be affected by it (as of yet)