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After trying fruitlessly to come up with a good Crimson/Imperial Fist army (nothing exciting about Devastators) I realised that their Bolter Drill is replicated to some degree by the TL bike bolters, and realised just how much better the bikes are than tacticals for not many more points. So, without further ado here's what I've come up with. Bear in mind (sorry!) that my meta has no fliers, partly to avoid even more complicated rules for some up and coming young players.

150 Kor'sarro + bike

70 Scout squad, sniper rifles, camo cloaks
55 Scout squad, extra cc wpn
159 Bike squad (with Kor'sarro for Ld and cc buff), + bike, + attack bike with multimelta, 2 meltaguns
145 Bike squad, +2 bikes, + Veteran Sergeant (for Ld buff due to small unit size and cc potential to capitalise on Hammer of Wrath/Hit and Run), 2 gravguns
145 Bike squad, +2 bikes, + Veteran Sergeant, 2 gravguns

45 Landspeeder Storm, heavy flamer
70 Landspeeder, multimelta, heavy flamer
75 Landspeeder Typhoon

243 9 Sternguard, + rhino
195 Command Squad, + bikes, apothecary, 3 gravguns.
145 Legion of the Damned, meltagun, multimelta

Total 1497

Fast, furious, exciting, slightly flimsy?! Any gaping holes or improvements please? Enough anti-GEQ/MEQ/TEQ/MC/Horde/Vehicles? I'm not certain about the typhoon or the veteran sergeants.

Looks a total mess to be honest.

You've taken Khan but are missing a gravgun on the command squad and have very few bikes.

You have 2 random units of Scouts for no apparent reason when they could just be more bikers.

2 solo land speeders with no duel threat or redundancy just begging to give away first blood whilst achieving nothing.

Vet Sergeants on the bikes aren't worth it when those could be combigravs instead. Your bikers are not good in assault, don't use them that way.

Sternguard are meh but in this list don't make sense at all. Legion are awesome but melta is a poor choice on them. Take plasmagun+cannon and combi grav for ignoring cover death. But again they don't really fit here.

Take Khan and just take bikes bikes and more bikes. Get a 2nd HQ and 2nd grav spam command squad. Take 6 bike squads and mix up their weapons. Something like this:

Khan: Moondraken 150
Captain: Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour, Bike 210
Command Squad: 5 gravguns, bikes 210
Command Squad: 5 gravguns, bikes 210

5 Bikes: 2 flamers 115
5 Bikes: 2 flamers 115
5 Bikes: flamer 110
5 Bikes: flamer 110
5 Bikes: 2 Meltas, combimelta 135
5 Bikes: 2 Meltas, combimelta 135

42 Bikers 10 Gravguns, 6 flamers, 6 meltas, a CC beast and speed and mobility through out your army. Everything is T5, your opponents dedicated AT fire has literally nothing to do. Pick a flank obliterate it and roll up.

I agree with fling it now, if your going white scars you need bikes bikes and more bikes. Sternguard are a suicide unit, you can't really use them any other way as your opponent will target them and obliterate them first. Drop pods are the only successful way of getting them to your enemy. The rhino will be popped first turn and then they will have to footslogg it through enemy fire. Your scouts will achieve nothing in this list and unless you double up your weps on your landspeeders then they will fail miserably. Spare marine captains with shield eternal are awesome for tanking wounds on your bikes. T5 with 3++ is crazy so they are a must.

Take something to deal with flyers and hordes otherwise your army becomes auto lose against certain builds.

Why take something to deal with flyers? Just totally wasted points. Particularly as the available AA options in the SM codex are pants against ground targets.

Thank you for the replies.

Your list certainly looks more competitive than mine FlingitNow. I shall bear in mind your points, taking into account the consideration that in my meta a decrease in competitiveness is not a deal-breaker where fun can be increased through greater unit variety. I still value all the comments of course.

Why are the scouts not reasonable? The snipers are a cheap backfield objective sitter and the cc scouts can hitch a ride on their Storm to an opponent's objective. In a word they do a job and are cheap.

I'm not keen on your flamer bikes. Wouldn't they entail getting into charge range? Even if they eventually win, they would have been tied up in combat. And if they are meant to charge after flaming, why do you say they should stay out of assault?

I'm not sure Sternguard are a suicide unit in this configuration? They are barely more of a threat than the bikes and LotD without combi weapons?

Finally, SM HQs are expensive enough without having two in a 1500 list no?

While I agree that the list isn't great, I find it surprising that posters can't see the benefits of Scouts in a Bike list, i.e. a list that otherwise can't score off the ground level of any ruin, a terrain type that should be rife in a standard tournament set-up.

Also, why take something to deal with flyers you ask? To deal with flyers, that's why. Ignoring CronAir or QuadDrakes is not really an option for the above set-up. For White Scars your options against flyers really are to take your own to deal with them or else take several 2+ and/or 3++ characters to tank.

drop the lotd, and sternguard and 1 unit of scouts w/out the snipers grab an attack bike unit w/ MM and 2 storm talons. then have fun

Sorry I meant the cc scouts, they are terrible. Nothing wrong with sniper scouts. I've seen them do everything lol, including shooting down one of my vendettas on more than one occasion. Should have made myself clear. Apologies.

Also, why take something to deal with flyers you ask? To deal with flyers, that's why. Ignoring CronAir or QuadDrakes is not really an option for the above set-up. For White Scars your options against flyers really are to take your own to deal with them or else take several 2+ and/or 3++ characters to tank.

? What flyers? He's stated they don't use any flyers so what flyers are you talking about. Tell how you run a cronair list without any flyers in it? Or quad drakes with no Helldrakes? So again why would he take something to deal with flyers?

Finally, SM HQs are expensive enough without having two in a 1500 list no?

Well I've fit in 2 to get 2 command squads as they are the powerhouse unit in a bike list and my list still has as many boots on the ground as yours. The bike Captain is a good CC option too. The flamers on the squads are to be used in overwatch or when you can wipe a whole squad out. The other option is to drop a squad and take melta on a few bike squads you won't need more grav with two command squads but that's less boots on the ground. The other option is swap a squad for scouts to get the points to take melta.

When building a list it is best to pick a central idea. Then pick only the units that help that goal. Ensure you take important units in multiples for duel threat and redundancy. Space Marines have the drawback that you are wasting points on the fact that every unit is naturally a generalist therefore you need a streamlined list as you're naturally at a disadvantage against say Tau who don't waste points on mediocre cc ability on their shooting units...

 FlingitNow wrote:


When building a list it is best to pick a central idea. Then pick only the units that help that goal. Ensure you take important units in multiples for duel threat and redundancy. Space Marines have the drawback that you are wasting points on the fact that every unit is naturally a generalist therefore you need a streamlined list as you're naturally at a disadvantage against say Tau who don't waste points on mediocre cc ability on their shooting units...

Succinctly put, thanks. I now have to think about rebalancing the list towards that streamlining versus an interesting/fun list to own/play in my meta. Cheers!

Just because a list is efficient and streamlined doesn't mean it can't be fun to collect or play. Bike lists work best when you go all bikes. But mechanised lists can work with more diversity as can gunlines. But remember duel threat and redundancy. For example the Sternguard and Legion would both work better if you doubled up on one. Then equippe them to take advantage of their rules, ignores cover and relentless for LotD, combi weapon spam and heavy flamers for Sternguard. Both work best when delivered into short ranged unscathed: i.e. deep striking.

 FlingitNow wrote:


Khan: Moondraken 150
Captain: Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour, Bike 210
Command Squad: 5 gravguns, bikes 210
Command Squad: 5 gravguns, bikes 210

5 Bikes: 2 flamers 115
5 Bikes: 2 flamers 115
5 Bikes: flamer 110
5 Bikes: flamer 110
5 Bikes: 2 Meltas, combimelta 135
5 Bikes: 2 Meltas, combimelta 135

42 Bikers 10 Gravguns, 6 flamers, 6 meltas, a CC beast and speed and mobility through out your army. Everything is T5, your opponents dedicated AT fire has literally nothing to do. Pick a flank obliterate it and roll up.

That list is made without actually having played biker armies I guess? Too many bikers, way too many short-ranged weapons, not maxed out special weapons. That list would run over itself trying to get their weapons into effective ranges. You would only be able to apply a small portion of your firepower to any particular place on the battlefield, and with no firesupport, it is easy to keep vital stuff away. The short ranged specials and low damage output invites getting your ass kicked by close combat units.

The original list isn`t that bad, it just needs some tweaks. The sternguard are sticking out, a single rhino isn`t great, and 250pts for 9 marines with no special weapons is underwhelming. If you like them and want to keep them, go with drop pod and give them some real weapons. I also don`t like the dual purpose landspeeder. Choose a role and go balls to the walls. Don`t like the solo typhoon either, but it can probably do just fine. Also, always maximize special weapons in your squads, including the combi on the sarge. IMO, the command squad can be downgraded to normal bikers, one less gravgun, no apothecary, but much cheaper and scoring.

Thunderfire cannons are great for bike lists, they help with anti-horde and some problematic units and allow you to reach out and "touch" units far away. I also like fliers with bikes for much of the same reason (and AA), but if your group has some weird rule against them, then that`s not an option.

Best way is to get some experience with the list so you know what units works for you. 4 bike squads and khan is a great core, and then you have pretty much endless options for support from there.

drop most of the flamers for grav guns or more melta and its not bad

Edit : You guys don't play with flyers.

After having a good ol' brain scratching session as a result of your feedback, I have come up with the following modified list. An improvement? It looks damn fun to play!

150 Kor'sarro on bike

70 scout snipers with cloaks
60 scouts with extra cc wpn, meltabombs
159 4 bikes, melta attack bike, 2 meltaguns
135 5 bikes, 2 gravguns
135 5 bikes, 2 gravguns
135 5 bikes, 2 gravguns

45 landspeeder storm
60 landspeeder dual flamer
60 landspeeder dual flamer

145 LotD meltagun, multimelta
345 10 sternguard vets in drop pod, 4 combimeltas, 4 combiplasma.

Total = 1499

Thoughts?

sternguard are to expensive for my taste, specially for white scars (you get nothing from your CT) also drop the scouts for MOAR BIKES! imo. sure your not sitting back on your objectives, but last turn flat out moves and usually cover a good chunk of the table. I am personally not a fan of landspeeders but if I bring them I ALWAYS take missile launchers. that's 2 shots each from each speeder lotd can work, but take care.

A typhoon does seem attractive and one was in my original list. I'm a very tactical player and this list is for my eldest son to learn tactics, and the typhoon would be a great way to teach the general "kiting" strategy. However, I need some horde control, and two double flamer LSs working in concert with their fantastic range-dictation advantages should be able to make the opponent roll tear-jerking amounts of dice. So not sure how to squeeze in the typhoon although I'd like to. I could drop the meltabombs and a combi-plasma I suppose but then I'd lose too much.

The sternguard are expensive - are they kitted out correctly? Perhaps I could go for a drop-pod assault squad instead to tie up big nasties with big guns in combat asap?

I would drop the plasma, your special ammunition is better imo and doesn't cost points. I normally advocate sternguard usage but for whitescars list I don't see them working extremely well. maybe just drop them for some more landspeeders for long range support for your bike squads and HF speeders.

It looks good. You should find 40pts for combi-weapons on the bikers and LotD though.

Dual heavy flamer speeders are great. They can DS and fire both and they are very cheap. Typhoons are good for S8, but for anti-horde, they are vastly inferior to the flamer speeders.

The sternguard are probably too expensive for what they do, they will be very hit and miss depending on opponent army. This is where I would look to optimize.

here is a list I would run with 1500 white scars.

Khan- 150 (moon draken)
6 man bike squad w/ 2 grav guns and vet. Sgt. -166
6 man bike squad w/ 2 grav guns and vet. Sgt. -166
6 man bike squad w/ 2 melta guns and attack bike w/ MM- 211
6 man bike squad w/ 2 melta guns and attack bike w/ MM- 211
3x Typhoon land speeder w/ MM- 255
3x Typhoon land speeder w/ HB- 225
Storm talon w/ skyhammer missile- 125

the bike squads would have different targets. and would be backed up by the land speeders with the talon providing some anti air. you can always drop a bike squad for another talon if needed in your meta.

this also gives you theoption of combat squading your bikes if for some reason you want to. either putting both special weapons into one squad or splitting them