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So, I'm currently torn between a dual FOCCSM list with 3 FMC's or, allying daemons for the same number of FMC's but getting rid of cultists. (I hate them) I didn't really want to buy the Daemons book, but as I am building a pure Khorne list I am so tempted by the Blood thirster! (Fits fluff!)
So, is he any good? Is he better than a CSMDP with the AoBF? What are people's thought and experiences?
And PLEASE no one say 'take a MoTz DP, take fatey, take whoever and just paint red' I am sticking with pure Khorne - end of!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
From my experiences of playing with them, playing against them, and watching people use them. They can be indestructable gods of war or die like roodie poo candy asses. It's all in the matchup, player skill and of course GW's new fad... complete random wargear and powers!!!
Overall he is a really solid unit. My preference with them is double greater rewards.
I need to return some video tapes. Skulls for the Skull Throne
Reroll Invuln Saves.
+1 Wound and It Will Not Die.
FNP 4+.
Worst case drop Unbreakable Hide or Touch of Uncreation for a Blade of Blood for +1 Attack and Rampage.
This. Those rewards can make the bloodthirsters incredibly powerful. One makes him save 55% of AP3+ attacks. Another makes him 30% tougher, and the final makes him 100% tougher.
Dual greater reward is what doctor ordered for all greater daemons and daemon princes.
Crimson Devil wrote: 7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
Run them with 2 greaters for sure. Thirsters can be amazing.
The only issue with thirsters is that they don't have psychic powers/powerful shooting/buffing. They are pretty much just CC monsters which is fine but that is the reason people say they are inferior to other greater daemons.
labmouse42 wrote: BTs are also immune to ID weapons, and are more reliable. They are not going to roll a 1 with the AoBF.
What grants them immunity from force weapons. Draigo got locked in combat with mine the other day and he was quickly banished to the warp (The BT..... not draigo)
labmouse42 wrote: BTs are also immune to ID weapons, and are more reliable. They are not going to roll a 1 with the AoBF.
What grants them immunity from force weapons. Draigo got locked in combat with mine the other day and he was quickly banished to the warp (The BT..... not draigo)
He does not from force weapons, but he does from STR 10 weapons. That's where I was going. DPs get gibbed all the time by STR 10 weapons when they don't have iron arm. Greater daemons don't have that worry.
As far as Draigo doing work on a BT. Well...you have seen the trials of draigo right?
My experiences are all bad.....because I'm on the beatstick side of them. I know it sucks staring down two or even three of the beast. You're right to keep them Khornate, don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 21:05:05
On building Tyranid army flow chart.
Do you have enough Termagaunts?
No > Add More
Yes > No you don' t > Add more
jakl277 wrote: You just have to be smart with who you engage as a BT..stay away from psyk out grenades and force weapons
stay away from wraithguard etc
The best CC greater daemon is probably the GUO with everything pimped out.
The Bloodthirster is an FMC with a 3+AS. Those are things the GUO wishes he had. The GUO is tougher, but the Bloodthirster is more likely to affect the board at least early on. With the right Psychic Powers the GUO goes from a giant slow turd to a nigh unkillable giant slow turd. GUOs are awesome, but they are avoidable unfortunately. Though, at a 1k tournament I ran into a list with two GUOs, two units of plaguebearers, and two Nurgle Sougrinders. Nasty.
I like the Lord of Change. A single lessor nets you S8 in Melee. You automatically reroll 1's. Two Greaters gives him options and most likely durability. Not to mention sweet sweet Divination. Forewarning, Precognition, and Guarenteed Precience.
labmouse42 wrote: He does not from force weapons, but he does from STR 10 weapons. That's where I was going. DPs get gibbed all the time by STR 10 weapons when they don't have iron arm. Greater daemons don't have that worry.
Wraithcannons, D-Cannons and D-Scythes beg to differ...
jakl277 wrote: You just have to be smart with who you engage as a BT..stay away from psyk out grenades and force weapons
stay away from wraithguard etc
The best CC greater daemon is probably the GUO with everything pimped out.
The Bloodthirster is an FMC with a 3+AS. Those are things the GUO wishes he had. The GUO is tougher, but the Bloodthirster is more likely to affect the board at least early on. With the right Psychic Powers the GUO goes from a giant slow turd to a nigh unkillable giant slow turd. GUOs are awesome, but they are avoidable unfortunately. Though, at a 1k tournament I ran into a list with two GUOs, two units of plaguebearers, and two Nurgle Sougrinders. Nasty.
I like the Lord of Change. A single lessor nets you S8 in Melee. You automatically reroll 1's. Two Greaters gives him options and most likely durability. Not to mention sweet sweet Divination. Forewarning, Precognition, and Guarenteed Precience.
As said in the OP, I'm sticking to Khorne and the blood god only.
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
labmouse42 wrote: He does not from force weapons, but he does from STR 10 weapons. That's where I was going. DPs get gibbed all the time by STR 10 weapons when they don't have iron arm. Greater daemons don't have that worry.
Wraithcannons, D-Cannons and D-Scythes beg to differ...
So do attacks from Fabius Bile, Swarmlord, or Sicarius. There are some weapons that cause ID, but they happen considerably less then a single STR 10 hit -- which is much more common.
Lets look at the chance of a single wraithcannon ID'ing a BT.
(1/6 to hit) * (1/6 to ID) * (2/3 failed save) = 1/54 chance.
Yes, yes -- the BT might not be swooping yada yada yada. The reality is that if you have weapons that can cause ID to the BT, he is going to make a B-Line for the wraithknight and turn it into chopped wraithSushitm. Its just that simple. Yes, there are times when the BT will have just made wraithSushi tm and a squad of D-Cannons will pop out and ID him, but again its really rare.
In comparison, there are lots of STR 10 attacks out there. Any MC can ID a DP with one hit. I've played many games before where I did just that. An ork warboss will ID a DP with a STR 10 hit.
I can attest to you, as someone who played daemons and CSM for ~8 months, the STR 10 deaths were a heck of a lot more common than any of the other ID situations that occurred.
That's why when people are talking about the T6 being a big deal for stopping ID, they are referring to STR 10 hits.
This is important to the OP, as he should realize the value of the T6, and not be dissuaded by the occasional ID that happens from other weapons. It is important to note that it will sometimes happen, but it should be a rare occurrence.
Done a little reading, and taking an allied BT with 2 greater gifts does seem like one heck of a decent unit. And almost better than any DP you can build in a CSM list that's khornate. It just means my CD DP is not as tough, but can still take a axe of Khorne with decapitating blow!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
You sound like you've got the idea now! Rewards, Rewards, Rewards. While Khorne DP aren't as good as some of the other DP, they are cheaper due to not taking Mastery Levels.
What's the rest of your army? Is it a rush list with rhinos, bikers/spawn advancing forward? If so, Flesh Hounds are for you! They scout, are beasts, and can make for a good distraction/threat on the table.
Avoid Blood crushers. They aren't what they used to be, and Flesh Hounds can do assaults better due to sheer number of attacks.
Bloodletters all have Ap3 weapons, but they also make for good ADL Quangun babysitters. BS 5 means even a Icrus Lascannon isn't a bad idea.
Yeah I made the mistake of grabbing 8 Bloodcrushers for dirt cheap. By god they look awesome, but that ID is too heavy a downside (I like the idea but it's just too devastating).
For flesh hounds, look at Warhammer Fantasy Dire Wolves and Chaos Hounds. Look better (IMO) and so much cheaper.
I've fielded him twice, once against Eldar, once against Necrons.
Against Eldar, 3K doubles, both mine and my partner's BT were gunned down in the first shooting phase, but that did mean all our DPs make it into CC relatively unscathed.
Against Necrons, he just...well, it wasn't pretty, I managed to tie up the Necron centre with a disordered charge from a big unit of Hounds, and that freed the BT just to roam about at will, punching gak in the face until It was scrap. Ultimately, some very ordinary dice rolling, a Lord with a scythe killing my Herald and no AP meant the Hounds laboured a bit, so I sent the BT in, who broke the whole centre in one round of combat.
In short, if your oppo can't doesn't bring the tools to deal with him, he will chew through almost anything, but is genuinely feel that he should have been the only GD to get EW, it would be fluffy and a point of difference that would make him worthy of consideration in a lot more lists. There are too many easy ways to end his game in ignominy that are frequently seen in armies for him to reliably be the beast he should be every game.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Simply put, get him in combat and leave him there.
If he is out in the open, he will die quickly to massed shooting.
In combat, units will struggle to hurt him and he will tear through most threats with ease.
Just pick targets for him and fire away.
Avoid any large units that will tarpit him, or shoot the unit / hack it down a bit with other units and use the thirster to finish it off.
In combat, there really isnt alot that will deal with him, but a careless move will strip wounds off him quickly.
Funny really, he plays just the same in 40k as he does in fantasy, except in fantasy, he has poor armour but better stats I tend to rely on thirsters to do alot of my heavy lifting though, but thats just me really.
He's a beat stick I run exhalted and greater the exhaled is axe for extra attacks and strength means s8 on the charge and the greater for extra longevity I like FnP but the other axe works as well giving rampage so 6 +1(x weapon)+d3 rampage+d3 exhaled axe then charge bonus's add in skarbrand as well and there's not a lot left standing when he's done.
I have a reward question....if I take a greater reward and opt for the weapon, giving him rampage, does that give him rampage to his Khorne axe, and so still gets decapitate?
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I have a reward question....if I take a greater reward and opt for the weapon, giving him rampage, does that give him rampage to his Khorne axe, and so still gets decapitate?
No, you must choose what melee weapon you are using. It would grant a bonus attack for having a second specialist weapon though.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I have a reward question....if I take a greater reward and opt for the weapon, giving him rampage, does that give him rampage to his Khorne axe, and so still gets decapitate?
No, you must choose what melee weapon you are using. It would grant a bonus attack for having a second specialist weapon though.
I disagree as the weapon itself doesn't have Rampage, it has Bloodlust. The bearer of the weapon gets Rampage; you only have to be the bearer of the weapon.
Now I come to think of it... Can't remember if I had a discussion with any of you about this... I remember someone mentioning Dark Eldar to disprove me, but I'm not sure. I would say that they deliberately wanted the model to have Rampage at all time as they took their time to give the weapon Bloodlust, when they just could give it Rampage directly. If it had Rampage directly mentioned on the weapon Type, then I would agree that you had to use the weapon to get Rampage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/05 21:12:03
Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I have a reward question....if I take a greater reward and opt for the weapon, giving him rampage, does that give him rampage to his Khorne axe, and so still gets decapitate?
No, you must choose what melee weapon you are using. It would grant a bonus attack for having a second specialist weapon though.
I disagree as the weapon itself doesn't have Rampage, it has Bloodlust. The bearer of the weapon gets Rampage; you only have to be the bearer of the weapon.
.......I like this interpretation better!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I have a reward question....if I take a greater reward and opt for the weapon, giving him rampage, does that give him rampage to his Khorne axe, and so still gets decapitate?
No, you must choose what melee weapon you are using. It would grant a bonus attack for having a second specialist weapon though.
I disagree as the weapon itself doesn't have Rampage, it has Bloodlust. The bearer of the weapon gets Rampage; you only have to be the bearer of the weapon.
.......I like this interpretation better!
I agree with this interpretation. I can't remember, off the top of my head, where, but elsewhere other weapon effects specifically refer to the wielder, not the bearer. The choice of words have slightly different connotations which I believe suggest that it just has to be equipped, and not chosen to make the attacks with.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I've just read te relevant rules again, and I'd agree. It just says the bearer gains rampage. It kinda makes sense to me, otherwise the greater primary isnt all that great!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
Played a game with my Khornate daemons recently for laughs against my buddies Space wolves. Skarbrand trashed anything in reach, taking out a Rune-priest, a Wolf Lord on wolf mount, a unit of Thunderwolf cavalry, and a allies DE archon and his Incubi bodyguard. He really is an absolute beast, and cost cheaper then most Bloodthirsters.
Meanwhile, in the same game, the normal Bloodthirster (with Axe of Khorne and Blade of Blood), caught the first trip on the failboat to loserville. He swooped in, landed by the long fang rear guard, and promptly fell into a hole opened by the Rune-priests JotWW. Granted, since a BT, and most MCs, only really fall in when rolling a 6 on that Initiative test, this will be a rare occurrence...
Daemons--5000
Death Guard --2000
Daemons--15000
Word Bearers--10000
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them 
Skulls for the Skull Throne 
5000pts
2000pts
7000pts
Daemons--5000
Death Guard --2000
Word Bearers--10000