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So with the BL supp, chosen can be taken as troops, with 4 specialist weapons....so plonk 4 plasm as on them, and although they don't quite have the havocs range, they have pretty decent firepower AND can hold objectives!

Thoughts?

It's a pretty good deal. Pretty expensive in points though.

Does provide CSM with Troops that can actually achieve something though, which they're short on.

Also, they could have 5 specialist weapons if they wanted.

If I'm reading this correctly you can have 5 specialist weapons. "Up to four models may choose one of the following four options: ....." and then later "One Chosen may replace his boltgun with one of the following: ...." See what I'm saying? Either way though I think Chosen and Havocs have different roles on the table. Chosen seem more geared towards slaughtering MEQs/Light Infantry/TEQs/Light Vehicles(with metla spam), where Havocs are more anti vehicle/TEQs/ other big stuff. Theres some overlap there but I think they can and should have different roles.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So with the BL supp, chosen can be taken as troops, with 4 specialist weapons....so plonk 4 plasm as on them, and although they don't quite have the havocs range, they have pretty decent firepower AND can hold objectives!

Thoughts?

they always could, if you took abby.

Abby wing never got much traction because chosen are just too expensive. 18ppm before you add the special weapon is a lot.

Black legion MUST give them VotLW and suddenly you are talking about 20ppm.

If they had Chaos armor they would be worth it, but as is....

 Exergy wrote:

Abby wing never got much traction because chosen are just too expensive.

That's reductive. It wasn't a good idea because of how expensive both Abaddon and Chosen are together and how they don't work well together at all.

Chosen may be expensive, even with VotLW, but they're not overpriced. You get get a lot for their cost, you just have to make sure to get the use out of them.

 TNT925 wrote:
If I'm reading this correctly you can have 5 specialist weapons. "Up to four models may choose one of the following four options: ....." and then later "One Chosen may replace his boltgun with one of the following: ...." See what I'm saying? Either way though I think Chosen and Havocs have different roles on the table. Chosen seem more geared towards slaughtering MEQs/Light Infantry/TEQs/Light Vehicles(with metla spam), where Havocs are more anti vehicle/TEQs/ other big stuff. Theres some overlap there but I think they can and should have different roles.

You are reading it correctly, but to get that 5th weapon, you have to get a 6th Chosen, because that option is under the Chosen section. The Chosen Champion's gear and options are different, but he can get a combi to add into the fun.

Terminators are also very confusing with a lot of folk. Though would be nice if GW FAQed it to make it crystal clear, one way or another. I am glad to see GW has gotten better with their wording in the Space Marine Codex.

Chosen aren't bad, but they're not havocs. Part of the appeal of havocs is their low cost. You can buy a Havoc for 13 points and he gets most special and heavy weapons at a very reasonable discount (flakk missiles being a notable exception).

Chosen are 18ppm at a minimum. If you want them to score, you have to either take Abaddon or pay an additional 2ppm. This doesn't mean they're bad -- just that they serve a different purpose.

Try to use them where they can take advantage of their extra attack, CCW, and upgrade options. It's what they get over standard marines, after all. Personally, I think they go nicely with the Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess. You can then either use Huron to give them infiltrate, or stick them in a land raider. If you're giving them the transport, make sure to look at options from Forgeworld -- most are a better fit than the standard variant available to CSM.

Beyond the specialist weapons, the big benefit to BL Chosen is the fact they are scoring units. They give you some tactics for objective camping that compliment what you can do with cult units without forcing you to take certain marks on your warlord. While they are expensive, they also have some advantages worth considering.

The two units I use for objective camping with C:CSM are Plague Marines and Noise Marines. Here's how Chosen compare:

The cost per model for a CL Chosen with MoN is 22 points, compared to 25 points for a Plague Marine. You are losing Fearless and Feel No Pain, but you are gaining with the addition of stronger firepower.

The cost per model for CL Chosen with MoS is 21 points, compared to 18 for a Noise Marine. But the costs of both models can vary due to icons and weapons. I generally take the IoE with both units, where the cost per model varies based on the size of the unit. I also generally take full sonics for every Noise Marine, plus blastmasters. This might not be entirely fair comparison, but let's say my cost per model usually comes to 24 for Chosen, and the cost per model for NMs becomes 27. You lose fearless on the Chosen in exchange for the ability to buy more specialist weapons.

So, the way I think about Chosen, you have this objective camper that's almost as survivable as PMs and gets slightly tougher weapons than a NMs. But unique thing about Chosen is what happens in overwatch. Being able to fire off 5 flamers or 5 Plasma Guns at an assaulting unit is huge, not to mention you have 2 attacks base, grenades and either T5 or FNP on the squad. It's very hard to assault Chosen, which makes them hard to dislodge. This has come up big for me in several games, where they were able to wipe out assaulting squads with the combined overwatch shots and performance in assault. It's like getting a VP for the objective plus one for taking out the assaulters. Not to mention you can give the Chosen Champion a power weapon and melta bombs, which are good for challenges and things like Dreadnoughts.

There is this strong synergy between cult units and Chosen as well. I like to run them in a diamond offense, where I have a jump pack CL out in front, my Chosen behind them on an objective, a squad of NMs somewhere near the Chosen, and either Havocs or a Laspred behind them providing supporting fire. While this is not a deathstar, it's an incredibly efficient combination for killing MEQ and TEQ. The CL can tarpit a unit just by taking challenges, the Chosen can't really be assaulted, the NMs can lay down a ton of fire that ignores cover, and the support unit can take out anything too tough for the NMs. When I can pull it off, this tactic can be incredibly efficient for marching up the board.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So with the BL supp, chosen can be taken as troops, with 4 specialist weapons....so plonk 4 plasm as on them, and although they don't quite have the havocs range, they have pretty decent firepower AND can hold objectives!

Thoughts?

I have 2x units of chosen in my non-BL suppliment list. Special weapons are cool.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Abby wing never got much traction because chosen are just too expensive.

That's reductive. It wasn't a good idea because of how expensive both Abaddon and Chosen are together and how they don't work well together at all.

Chosen may be expensive, even with VotLW, but they're not overpriced. You get get a lot for their cost, you just have to make sure to get the use out of them.

I enjoy using them, usually in the pent-flamer formation. 6 with 5 flamers MoN and a rhino are a ton of fun.

 BlkTom wrote:

You are reading it correctly, but to get that 5th weapon, you have to get a 6th Chosen, because that option is under the Chosen section. The Chosen Champion's gear and options are different, but he can get a combi to add into the fun.

That's not correct.

It says "Up to four models may choose one of the following four options:" and then lists the special weapons, melee weapon, etc options.

Then it says "One Chosen may replace his boltgun with one of the following:' and has the special and heavy weapon options.

Chosen Champions are not Chosen, but they are models.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:

You are reading it correctly, but to get that 5th weapon, you have to get a 6th Chosen, because that option is under the Chosen section. The Chosen Champion's gear and options are different, but he can get a combi to add into the fun.

That's not correct.

It says "Up to four models may choose one of the following four options:" and then lists the special weapons, melee weapon, etc options.

Then it says "One Chosen may replace his boltgun with one of the following:' and has the special and heavy weapon options.

Chosen Champions are not Chosen, but they are models.

That is why I want a FAQ from GW making that crystal clear, because it can be taken two different ways. I am not going to debate this with you or anyone, I as a chaos player will err on the side of caution because that is how I read that section. You guys want to go the other way, you can deal with the headaches involved.

Up to four models - means 3 chosen and the chosen champion can take an upgrade, then
One Chosen - means the remaining chosen can take that upgrade.
What needs to be faq'd?

He don't like the champ getting a Plasma gun.

Yeah that's how I read it as well.

Meaning you can technically have 6 if you buy the champion his own combi-weapon and upgrade 5 other chosen.

Put a lord and/or a sorcerer in that unit with combi-weapons of their own and you've got quite the death machine that comes out of a landraider!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So with the BL supp, chosen can be taken as troops, with 4 specialist weapons....so plonk 4 plasm as on them, and although they don't quite have the havocs range, they have pretty decent firepower AND can hold objectives!

Thoughts?

You could do this before BL already, you just needed Abaddon (not a bad deal at all). It didn't work before BL, so it probably won't work now. Marines die too easily, so spending more points on them just for more short range guns probably isn't the best ideas.

Havocs work because they stay 48" away with their Autocannons, not by taking Plasma and getting up close.

Tactics aside for a moment, wouldn't it make more sense, fluff-wise, if Chosen had the option to Termie up? I mean, they are the chosen ones right? Guitar Solo!

Back on topic. I bought the DV kit so I have to make do with what I've got right now and that means in larger point games I need to use my Chosen. I don't mind if people I play with want to proxy little stuff like weapons and such but I don't do it myself, so the way I made my Chosen is a little biased. But this is the inherent strength of the Chosen I believe. I need them to do a particular task and they perform well, another person might have a different set of variables to work with and may come up with something like the OP's idea. Anyways.

I split my DV Chosen up and made two 5 man teams that are basically the same. The Champions get either the plasma pistol powersword combo, or dual lightning claws. Then the squads are the same, one flamer, one melta, one powerfist and one power weapon. I also had a few extra bodies left over from my battleforce because I didn't want to make Possessed, in case you're wondering how I managed that. I know that the competition guys will say that termies are better for CC and they would be right, but I also bet those guys have termies on their shelves. Maybe once I can afford some of my own then the Chosen will see less action. I'll usually give them MoN or MoK depending on who I'm fighting. VotLW is sure handy against SM but against anything else it's not worth it unless you really want that extra leadership. I personally never use Icons because I just like to be cheap, but if you're under by a few points then by all means, Icon it up! The way the Chosen get to pick gear allows them to be very versatile units, near-deathstars (star destroyers maybe?) or specialized hit squads. At the end of the day however, I think that the true strength of the Chosen is adaptability. Just treat them like the Elites that they are and use them for what you intend. If you have a cause to take 4 melta's then make sure you use those 4 melta's! Run them up in a box and shoot out the hatches until they lose their wheels! You'll never see my Chosen, equipped as they are, sitting back waiting for pot shots, no they are up there getting stuff done. They run up, melta through a rhino, then splash the occupants down with flames next turn, and if anyone survives, charge in and splat them with power weapons! Gettin' charged? No worries! Flamer, base 2 attacks and T5? Go ahead and take your 2+ invul you filthy gold plated termies, you'll need it! Fighting Tau and some gnarly Riptide has your number? Well he won't look so hot after 4 plasma guns rapid fire into his monstrous creature butt! Need to punch a Defiler AND shoot up a Land Raider? Chosen can do that.

I've run 5-man squads of chosen in rhinos with plasma and combi-plasma, and they always do well for me. Honestly I think they work better as non-scoring units, because once they become scoring your opponent's going to drop more firepower on them to keep them off objectives. And they die just as fast as any other marine unless you bloat their cost too much.

If you ran lots of scoring chosen squads, then also ran havocs on the backfield, that might help disperse all the anti-infantry firepower a bit. Definitely want more scoring units than just the chosen though.

I tried and failed to find a thread similar to this that I was looking at earlier today.

The list was based on taking MSU of chosen with plasma in rhinos and complimenting them with obliterators.

Someone was saying that they were getting wiped of the board. Not sure why that was.

Chosen/ havocs seem like the most meta thing you can have. MSU of 5 units in rhinos with 5 plasma each

But then theres the cost. On paper it seems like it would work. I would try hunting down people like the one I failed to to figure out how it works out in the real world.

Tactics aside for a moment, wouldn't it make more sense, fluff-wise, if Chosen had the option to Termie up? I mean, they are the chosen ones right? Guitar Solo!

This was how it worked in 3.5, then they split it.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Tactics aside for a moment, wouldn't it make more sense, fluff-wise, if Chosen had the option to Termie up? I mean, they are the chosen ones right? Guitar Solo!

This was how it worked in 3.5, then they split it.

They should probably bring that back. I mean, it's not like we have any models for the Chosen anyways. Space Wolves have the same option.

Back on topic though. The guy who said his MSU list was getting wiped was probably getting shot with AP appropriate weapons. Rhinos aren't exactly the sturdiest either. I don't think that you are going to be able to use the Chosen as a backbone unit like that.

Small Chosen units that spams plasma becomes very expensive and thereby fragile. Comparable in cost and durability with Warp Talons who at least get a 5++ save.

Havocs does the same thing cheaper.

Terminators get one shot plasma, a power weapon of choice, terminator armour (including deep strike) for just a few points more.

I think there might be a spot for chosen as troops, but think using them with flamers/melta/hidden power weapons to go after opponent objectives uses their talents much better than sitting back firing plasma. Plague marines does that much better, and I would even consider regular CSM as a better choice.

To make the most of Chosen, shouldn't we be utilizing their close combat abilities? With a power weapon they're 2 points more expensive than a Terminator, but they've got 3 attacks against the Terminators' 2 and they've got Frag grenades.

Maybe Terminators make up for the single attack by shooting with combi-bolters just before charging but hitting models in initiative order (especially with the Mark of Slaanesh) is quite nice.

Though I guess it still doesn't make up for the Terminator Armour. Then again, it's a cheaper alternative compared to a Terminator squad in a Land Raider.

I disagree with spamming units for a variety of reasons, but in the case of chosen it's simply not a good idea and you cheat yourself out pf some of the cooler stuff in the book. That being said, a group of MoK chosen with maxed out flamers plus somebody like kharn or abbadon in a landraider would be a fun 1 off unit. When they deploy separate off the IC and attack multiple targets.

Use the flamers to clear a hole for the IC through a bubble wrap unit. Make sure you have the champ fire the bolt pistol so you can assign wounds up to 12" from him and still be able to assault. Or, just place 5 flamer templates and then assault with 4 attacks each on the charge.

WangoFett wrote:
Up to four models - means 3 chosen and the chosen champion can take an upgrade, then
One Chosen - means the remaining chosen can take that upgrade.
What needs to be faq'd?

Because the Champion has his war gear listed separately. Because it is a easy FAQ to write.

the plasma gun loadout is extremely effective against monsterous creatures especially tyrannofexs, maybe put them in rhinos and drop them of in cover near their targets they can also be good for taking out light vehicles

A unit of 6 chosen with 5 flamers and a rhino with extra armor, dozer blade and dirge caster is more than 200 points... once you start piling on plasmas that's probably going to go over 250 points... Sure 5 plasmas would be pretty good and with abbadon you'd be safe from gets hot... but for 250 points? I couldn't see doing this more than once.

 BlkTom wrote:

WangoFett wrote:
Up to four models - means 3 chosen and the chosen champion can take an upgrade, then
One Chosen - means the remaining chosen can take that upgrade.
What needs to be faq'd?

Because the Champion has his war gear listed separately. Because it is a easy FAQ to write.

But if they go to the trouble of listing his wargear separately, and they also use BOTH wordings ("model" and "Chosen") in the listing, why does that not make you think that was their intent? If they meant it the other way around, it seems like it would have been easier for them to word it to that effect than to make this sort of "mistake". Obviously, its not without precedent or possibility given their abysmal level of rules writing, but this kind of smacks of trying to invent a grey area.

 eohall wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:

WangoFett wrote:
Up to four models - means 3 chosen and the chosen champion can take an upgrade, then
One Chosen - means the remaining chosen can take that upgrade.
What needs to be faq'd?

Because the Champion has his war gear listed separately. Because it is a easy FAQ to write.

But if they go to the trouble of listing his wargear separately, and they also use BOTH wordings ("model" and "Chosen") in the listing, why does that not make you think that was their intent? If they meant it the other way around, it seems like it would have been easier for them to word it to that effect than to make this sort of "mistake". Obviously, its not without precedent or possibility given their abysmal level of rules writing, but this kind of smacks of trying to invent a grey area.

I know what you mean, but I will stand by my position though. I still see people screw up Chaos Terminators and pick weapons for the champ using the cheaper points, so I use that as an justification. I also find it very odd that they give the Champ a Combi option as well. If I am reading it correctly that a 5 man squad could have 5 special weapons, with the champ getting one and the 5th chosen getting the 'special or heavy weapon' choice. And if you want to have 5 Chosen with melee weapons your forced to make the champ buy his through the 'melee weapons' wargear section and give the other 4 chosen the '4 models' pick. So really, if you do a 6 man squad your champ can take a combi weapon and you can have 5 chosen with special weapons.

It just doesn't seem right, I would still like a FAQ on it to make it crystal clear (such as 'Yes, the Champ can buy a special weapon'). To be honest, I saw that Vanguard/Sternguard Vets listing in the Vanilla Codex and wished they listed it like that.

One tactic I like with chosen is to put them on a skyshield with mark of Tzeentch for a 3++