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Hello Dakka. Me and my friend's have hit a deadlock in an augment that's been going on for awhile now. The argument is simple which force is superior Death Korps of Krieg Grenadiers or Cadian Kasrkin.

Now when comparing the two forces in question i'm not saying who would win if they fought each other. I mean who is better at defending the imperium's borders, who has higher mission success rate, who would commanders rather have in there forces. The quality of equipment issued to the forces is also an important factor as well as overall numbers and training received. Also the versatility of both forces and the amount of experience each member has is an important factor.

So really i want everything taking into account when assessing these two forces. So al leave it up to you to brake this deadlock in our argument.

Finally my opinion is that the Death Korps of Krieg Grenadiers are the superior force as they have higher numbers there drawn from the rank and file and so have alot of experience from the start which more than makes up for the Kasrkin's fancy training there and there attitude as already being dead in the name of the emperor and making them fearless and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. which carry's them over the Kasrkin any day. Also there The Death Korps of Krieg and they win hands down when ir comes to guardsmen.

I'd rather have the kasrkin in my army - I'd rather have soldiers who will fight to survive, than ones who don't care if they die.

There are way more death korps grenadiers than Karskin. The Karskin are probably better trained/would be more fun to read about, since Death Korps are all super brainwashed.

Karskin are weird in that there are so damn few of them; if you need a small elite unit to achieve some objective, you are far more likely to run into some crusading Space Marines than Karskin.

I would say overall the Grenadiers contribute more to the Imperium's defense, if only because there are simply more of them.

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
I'd rather have the kasrkin in my army - I'd rather have soldiers who will fight to survive, than ones who don't care if they die.

This^. Also Cadians have accrued experience in all types of combat, whereas as far as I ca recall Grenadiers are really specialists in siege tactics.

The Grenadiers are the 'next step' for a Korpsman in the DKoK. Korpsmen are 'recommended' for service with the Grenadiers by their Watchmaster, Officer or Commissar. If they survive the phenomenally high casualty rates amongst Grenadiers, then they will return to the standard infantry sections as Watchmasters (Sergeants).

There is a big difference in the way these two forces are used. Whereas the Kasrkin are small elite units that go after an objective, the Grenadiers are shock troops. Heavy infantry that lead the way into the attack, smashing through the enemy to pave the way for successive Korpsmen/infantry to follow and exploit any gains the Grenadiers have made.

Because of their impact on the battlefied in numbers, as Omegus pointed out, I voted for them. Plus I'm biased anyway.

At the end of the day, Death Korps Grenadiers are going to contribute more overall to the Imperium's defense, because there are simply more of them, as has been said. The Kasrkin are outstanding special forces, but a few spec ops guys, while they can make a difference, aren't as likely to win a war as a large, elite force of siegers.

The Grenadiers are not specifically siege troops. When they're a part of a Death Korps Siege Regiment then, like the rest of the regiment, they will be geared more towards siegecraft, but in a standard Death Korps infantry regiment they're heavy infantry.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
The Grenadiers are not specifically siege troops. When they're a part of a Death Korps Siege Regiment then, like the rest of the regiment, they will be geared more towards siegecraft, but in a standard Death Korps infantry regiment they're heavy infantry.

I stand corrected. Either way, I agree.

But I have to ask if it's even fair to compare the two. They are entirely different forces with entirely different missions. Who can say which is better?

Korps because...They look cooler.I have no idea to be honest but we all know who look cooler.

Read the eisenhorn books, kasrkin are a step beyond normal rand and file, there are alot of them as cadia is a war world and it has a very large pop where near everyone is a soldier, those that are not are still in military rolls, they are under constant war, fight chaos daily... The cream of this world are the kasrkin, they beat out grenadiers hands down.

Models wise death core wins

Fluff kasrkin win

Formosa nailed it.

Especially their mention in the Eisenhorn books, members of his retinue (who are themselves badasses, and see the nastiest parts of the universe all the damn time) are in awe of the Kasrkin even as they are fastening their seatbelts, even before their combat prowess is exhibited.

Munitorium Stormtroopers above both of them. There are more Space Marines than there are Stormtroopers. One 10000 man regiment to cover a whole galaxy. If you want a target eliminated, they are your guys for the job.

But since those Stormies aren't available, I'd go for the Kasrkin. Krieg Grenadiers are suicidal in their attacks. Kasrkin don't have to be, as they are fully aware of their prowess.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Munitorium Stormtroopers above both of them. There are more Space Marines than there are Stormtroopers. One 10000 man regiment to cover a whole galaxy. If you want a target eliminated, they are your guys for the job.

Link?
Google came back with nothing, I've never heard of 'Munitorium Stormtroopers' before just meow

SnowMongoose wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Munitorium Stormtroopers above both of them. There are more Space Marines than there are Stormtroopers. One 10000 man regiment to cover a whole galaxy. If you want a target eliminated, they are your guys for the job.

Link?
Google came back with nothing, I've never heard of 'Munitorium Stormtroopers' before just meow

There real, and I'm going the Grenadiers, they will complete the objective or die trying.

SnowMongoose wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Munitorium Stormtroopers above both of them. There are more Space Marines than there are Stormtroopers. One 10000 man regiment to cover a whole galaxy. If you want a target eliminated, they are your guys for the job.

Link?
Google came back with nothing, I've never heard of 'Munitorium Stormtroopers' before just meow

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Stormtroopers#.UoBafOKrHl0

Munitorium Stormtroopers are the standard ones that operate with the Imperial Guard. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Kasrkin, and Grenadiers are separate organizations. The Munitorium troops are the best baseline human soldiers in the galaxy.

Oh, a fancy name for normal stormies.
I see.

I'll infer from my previous mention of the awe in which Kasrkin were held that they're better than your 'average' Stormtrooper
(not enough to warrant a stat difference, though that's more an issue with the range of stats than anything else)

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
But since those Stormies aren't available, I'd go for the Kasrkin. Krieg Grenadiers are suicidal in their attacks. Kasrkin don't have to be, as they are fully aware of their prowess.

It isn't about prowess but mindset. In the Death Korps prowess is expected alongside bravery or courage*. But in their mind, all a Korpsman wants to do, all he is told he wants to do from a young age, is to sacrifice his life to the God-Emperor as a small blood tithe for Kriegs past treachery. It's not that the Death Korps are rubbish soldiers, in fact they're brilliant soldiers considering how incredibly low the infraction rate is in DKoK regiments and how well trained they are**.

The Kasrkin are indeed a step above them in terms of individual skill and tactical capability but there are far more Grenadiers, and will always be many more Grenadiers***, than there will be Kasrkin. It also helps that the Death Korps are suicidal because making them run away is going to be rather difficult. If you put Kasrkin up against DKoK Grenadiers it'd be akin to an SAS patrol vs. a Great War infantry assault - yes the SAS chaps will put down a lot of the infantry in terms of 1:1 kill ratios, but those infantry will overwhelm them in numbers.

*Unlike much of the Imperial Guard the Death Korps doesn't hand out awards/medals for bravery - why reward them for doing what you expect?
**Krieg's incredibly harsh training regimes ensure the weak are weeded out long before the Korpsmen are formed into regiments - in their final stages of training it's the weakest of the strong who fall by the way. Korpsmen are incredibly well-versed in handling their weaponry and do well in close-quarters & melee combat.
***Krieg produces the maximum tithe they're allowed each year and could probably exceed that. The determination of Kriegs populace to redeem themselves for their planets history would probably see them empty the entire planet of people and go to war to pay their blood price if they were allowed.

I find the Death Korps to be the single most bland army in 40K, but that's just me.

Voted Kasrkin, because they look very cool even if they are old.

I though Kasrkins were Cadian Grenadiers...

Bah, anyways, if you need double elite suicidal lemmings to capture something, call the Grenadiers.

If you need to drop some elite special forces and marines give you the finger, send the Stormtroopers, or apparently, if you're Cadian, order the Kasrkins to do it.

Edit: But I think they're all roughly equals, the best ones are probably veteran Stormtroopers, since Kasrkins and Grenadiers are just veteran guardsmen.

And if you go by stats, then its probably Grenadiers, because WS4 and other things.

If you really, really need a point taken then you'd use the Grenadiers. For everything else, Kasrkin all the way.

I voted for Grenadiers as there are far more of them and they never retire or get promoted into a civilian capacity. DKoK fight, command, or be dead.

Karskins are probably more versatile as they have special operations whereas DKoK split their spec ops away from Grenadiers (aka engineers). Actually the interesting thing is engineers might be a closer comparison in some ways.

Fluffwise: Grenadiers

Gamewise: stormtroopers.

Their extra tactical abilities in game mean alot. Krieg have to footslog or hitch a ride in a chimeara/centaur. Stormtroopers can scout/re roll able deepstrike/outflank/infiltrate.

Also wargear, stormtroopers have hellgun (hotshot lasgun, I prefer hellgun as it sounds cooler), hellpistol and CCW, giving a +1 bonus for 2 CCW. In the new Krieg lists the grenadiers have lost their hellpistols, reducing the effect of charging them to use their superior WS 4.

After reading "Dead man walking" I´d say DKOK. They are creepy as gak but they get the job done.

Kasrkin are probably better man for man. They're special forces. Grenadiers are just Korpsmen with better equipment.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Kasrkin are probably better man for man. They're special forces. Grenadiers are just Korpsmen with better equipment.

Hrm, not quite, Grenadiers are experienced troops marked out for their battlefield prowess and ability to survive after proving themselves in battle.

 Formosa wrote:
Read the eisenhorn books, kasrkin are a step beyond normal rand and file, there are alot of them as cadia is a war world and it has a very large pop where near everyone is a soldier, those that are not are still in military rolls, they are under constant war, fight chaos daily... The cream of this world are the kasrkin, they beat out grenadiers hands down.

Models wise death core wins

Fluff kasrkin win

Do you know the DKoK fluff? the DKoK are born on a true deathworld of their own making, trained from birth in brutal live-fire exercises, and are shipped out to the most dangerous and hazardous warzones by request. The Grenadiers are those who have proven on the battlefield that they are amongst the best, it is a title that can only be earned on the battlefield.




All that said, are we considering Kasrkin to be Stormtroopers or "Veterans" with the "Grenadiers" doctrine, because they can realistically fit either role/description.



Either way, when talking about the DKoK Grenadiers vs Kasrkin, we're talking about two infantry units with slightly different purposes that are otherwise similarly equipped. DKoK Grenadiers are assault troops, they are heavy infantry whose purpose is to break an line or take a position. Kasrkin can do this but are more of a "commando" type unit.

In terms of tabletop performance, the DKoK Grenadiers are cheaper, ignore Fear and 25% morale tests from shooting, and have WS4, but lose special operations.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Kasrkin are probably better man for man. They're special forces. Grenadiers are just Korpsmen with better equipment.

Hrm, not quite, Grenadiers are experienced troops marked out for their battlefield prowess and ability to survive after proving themselves in battle.

Are we considering Kasrkin to be Stormtroopers or "Veterans" with the "Grenadiers" doctrine, because they can realistically fit either role/description.



Either way, when talking about the DKoK Grenadiers vs Kasrkin, we're talking about two infantry units with slightly different purposes that are otherwise similarly equipped. DKoK Grenadiers are assault troops, they are heavy infantry whose purpose is to break an line or take a position. Kasrkin can do this but are more of a "commando" type unit.

In terms of tabletop performance, the DKoK Grenadiers are cheaper, ignore Fear and 25% morale tests from shooting, and have WS4, but lose special operations.

Yes, exactly. Grenadiers are grizzled veterans but Kasrkin are trained to be special ops and whatnot. Kasrkin are also grizzled veterans though.