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If a model with IWND has suffered 1 or more wounds and goes into ongoing reserves prior to the end of a turn, can it still make a IWND roll to regain the wound even though it is no longer on the board?

For example, suppose that a Hell Drake has lost a HP and chooses fly off the table and into ongoing reserves during its movement phase. At the end of the controlling player's turn, can he still roll a IWND check to regain the lost HP?

The it will not die rule doesn't seem to need for the model to be on the table in order to benefit from it. Sounds fishy to me but it seems to work

I don't think I would have a problem with you doing this also I can't see any rule that could stop you doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did finally find a rule -

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Combined with:

Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves

So it looks like you can't apply IWND when off the board..

I'm at work so I don't have m books with me so forgive me if I'm wrong but dosent "it will not die" take effect at the end of your turn?

You're right, it's at the end of your turn, so kranki what you brought up shouldn't apply

AnabisXero wrote:
I'm at work so I don't have m books with me so forgive me if I'm wrong but dosent "it will not die" take effect at the end of your turn?

Yes, so it would not be effected by the restriction from using special rules at the beginning of your turn

Sounds good to me. I can't find anything to contradict.

I agree with getting the IWND roll in ongoing reserves, it seems to be RAI.

My MEQ friends, however, will disagree greatly, despite any rules evidence either way :/

IWND goes off on the end of your turn. if the flyer did indeed return to on-going reserves he did so BEFORE the end of your turn. therefore he is in reserves and cannot use IWND.

PS. personally if you can disprove this IDC. helldrakes are the only thing the CSM really have other than the deathstart of invisible nurgle bikes and a few other semi fun/decent shenanigans.

 raiden wrote:
IWND goes off on the end of your turn. if the flyer did indeed return to on-going reserves he did so BEFORE the end of your turn. therefore he is in reserves and cannot use IWND.

And you have rules to back this up, correct?

yes. If you go into ongoing reserves via swooping. you are off the board and in reserves before the assault phase even begins.. much less your ending turn.

 raiden wrote:
yes. If you go into ongoing reserves via swooping. you are off the board and in reserves before the assault phase even begins.. much less your ending turn.

And what about being off the board prevents IWND from going off?

hmm. I thought I had read something about things in reserve not being able to use special rules (unless specified otherwise) but I cannot find it so. no, nothing.

 raiden wrote:
hmm. I thought I had read something about things in reserve not being able to use special rules (unless specified otherwise) but I cannot find it so. no, nothing.

Youre thinking of the rule about using start of turn abilities, which does not apply here.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 raiden wrote:
yes. If you go into ongoing reserves via swooping. you are off the board and in reserves before the assault phase even begins.. much less your ending turn.

And what about being off the board prevents IWND from going off?

There isn't any rule preventing models using their rules off the table is there? Just that usually they have no effect (can't draw LoS for weapons/special rules, etc..)

Page 125, Units that leave play and enter ongoing reserves follow the normal rules for reserve. Are there any cases in which a model can use a special rule while in reserve when not specified by said special rule?

I am simply curious and could see how this could go either way but must admit I am a bit skeptical about a model performing something like this while not on the board.

This question came up a few times recently in my FLGS's leagues and we ruled that special rules that do not explicitly states the unit has to be on the table would trigger. About 4 of us combed the rules, FAQs, and forums looking and the explicit ruling seems to be missing. We also viewed it as such since Initiative Stealing special abilities (i.e. Imotekh, Vect, etc.) would be another example of a special rule (albeit codex-specific) that would allow you to keep the model itself in reserve and still benefit from such. That's our local ruling interpretation (read HIWPI) but again, the explicit ruling doesn't seem to have been provided at this time so it who knows how it'll be in the future.

The Eldar Autarch is another one of those goofy special rules with his reserve modifier, but put aside the poor writing and the intent is clear. The same can be said for those Initiative stealing special abilities as well. I've always thought of 40k as a permissive ruleset. When you start allowing things simply because "It doesn't say I can't" you're opening a can of worms.

 Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
The Eldar Autarch is another one of those goofy special rules with his reserve modifier, but put aside the poor writing and the intent is clear. The same can be said for those Initiative stealing special abilities as well. I've always thought of 40k as a permissive ruleset. When you start allowing things simply because "It doesn't say I can't" you're opening a can of worms.

Reserve modifiers are abilities/special rules that are applied during the beginning of the movement phase and thus are specifically forbidden. This is a specific ruling and does not apply to abilities/special rules that occur at other times.

The other times are not a case of "it doesn't say I can't". You absolutely have permission to use the special rules/abilities, that is in the rules/abilities themselves. You also have some specific restrictions to those allowances; IWND just simply does not fall under those restrictions

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
The Eldar Autarch is another one of those goofy special rules with his reserve modifier, but put aside the poor writing and the intent is clear. The same can be said for those Initiative stealing special abilities as well. I've always thought of 40k as a permissive ruleset. When you start allowing things simply because "It doesn't say I can't" you're opening a can of worms.

Reserve modifiers are abilities/special rules that are applied during the beginning of the movement phase and thus are specifically forbidden. This is a specific ruling and does not apply to abilities/special rules that occur at other times.

The other times are not a case of "it doesn't say I can't". You absolutely have permission to use the special rules/abilities, that is in the rules/abilities themselves. You also have some specific restrictions to those allowances; IWND just simply does not fall under those restrictions

This.

Possession of a special rule is permission to use said rule (as long as you meet all requirements). Being on the table is not a blanket restriction. It's just that most abilities require LoS or trigger off an in-game action such as moving, shooting, or assaulting which also requires actually being on the table.

The same thing happened last edition for the Mawloc which was able to enter ongoing reserves before they were named such. By burrowing with the regen biomorph, it could heal a wound while not actually on the table.

The Autarch's ability that I specifically mentioned has no restrictions other simply having purchased the model for your army. It does not mention any phases or hints at any sequence or timing in a turn. The IWND rule does however mention that it occurs at the end of a phase. How does a model trigger an ability that is phase specific when it is no longer on the board? Due to what I observe as poor writing of the ability it seems it could go any other way. I am just not entirely sure that was how the rule was intended to work. I guess it would be something I would discuss with my opponent if/when the issue comes up.

Phases occur in and of themselves. They are not tied to having models on the table. You can have no models on the table and still have a movement phase/shooting/assault phase (in which you do nothing but you are still required to have them).

 Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
The Autarch's ability that I specifically mentioned has no restrictions other simply having purchased the model for your army. It does not mention any phases or hints at any sequence or timing in a turn. The IWND rule does however mention that it occurs at the end of a phase. How does a model trigger an ability that is phase specific when it is no longer on the board? Due to what I observe as poor writing of the ability it seems it could go any other way. I am just not entirely sure that was how the rule was intended to work. I guess it would be something I would discuss with my opponent if/when the issue comes up.

The autarchs ability applies when making reserve rolls.

When do you make reserve rolls?

Now when are you specifically not allowed to use Special rules/Abilities while in reserve?

The answer to both is the beginning of the movement phase.

That is correct Kommissar Kel. Now back to the point, I ask, how is a model able to use a special rule when it is not on the table. Outside the "Well it doesn't say I cant use it" argument. I just can't wrap my head around it.

Well that is the point.

You have permission to roll a dice to regain a HP. That effect does not require you to be on the table function properly. There's no rule restricting or forbidding it depending on where it is.

You don't have to be on the table to do a lot of things. Like using the Deepstrike or Outflank rules. Which involve rolling dice for a unit as a well _while_ it's not on the table.

It seems that we have a logical problem with some missing information. It looks as follows:

Input 1: You may roll to regen HP at the end of a turn.

Input 2: Similar rules are stated to have no effect while off the board. This one has no written restriction.

Input 3: When the model is off the board, it tends to no longer be in play, such as with reserves.

Input 4: Ongoing reserves are a different kind of "off the board", they still exist, but with different rules to govern them.

Input 5: Ongoing reserves, however, do not stop you from being tabled while they're off the board, thus they only have a limited effect.

Maybe GW didn't realize this was possible, and missed it entirely.

Model has permission to heal a wound on a 5+. Is there a restriction anywhere on being on the table or not being in reserves? No? Sounds like they can do it to me

IMO, Reserve is just another "area" of the game. They are not removed from play - they still exist but are not on the primary battle field area of the game. Saying models not in the primary play area of the game is laying the groundwork for TFG to use the same argument in stating embarked units (which explicitly states set them aside, off the table) cannot use abilities. It's a stretch but I could see TFG trying to pull such.

Regardless though - there is nothing in the rulebook that states that reserve is NOT part of the game or that models in reserve are removed from play. Based on such, they are in play but not on the primary area and thus, I argue, that they are still able to use special rules provided all other requirements (i.e. LoS) and restrictions (i.e. not beginning of movement phase) are met.

I want this to be answered in reference to Fateweavers Staff of Tommorow and him being off the board!

Does it state he has to be on the table? Does it require LoS, a target, or fateweaver himself to be taking an action?

I believe those are all "no's" so he should be able to use it.