Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How is the Dakka banner best employed?

I'm thinking that 2 10 man squads to either side of the Command squad, all armed with Bolters to keep the points cost down, preferably hidden behind an ADL will create a solid wall of Dakka for any foe foolish enough to try to reach my side of the board (100 S4 shots at BS4 from the 2 squads, the Command Squad and the Captain is nothing to scoff at) but I have heard about people wanting to use them in a Land Raider or on Bikes to make it more effective. Ideas?

Also, does the Hurricane Bolter, that is made up of 3 twin-linked Bolters, benefit from the dakka banner?

Yes, hurricane bolters count.

The best way(s) to employ the banner doesn't ever involve static tac marines.

1) LRC spam. A naked PACS (power armored command squad) in a middle raider, flanked by 1 LRC in each side. Plant a Libby in a bike with PFG behind, riding sideways to grant all 3 a 4++. This get up costs a minimum of 1030 points.

2) 1 LRC (with PACS) and a butt ton of bikers. TL bolters at salvo 4? Yes please. Not as resilient as the former but more versatile especially if your HQ renders your bikes scoring.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf
The FAQ now lists the exact weapons;

Q: The Standard of Devastation states that ‘all friendly Codex:
Dark Angels units within 6” of the standard treat their boltguns as
Salvo 2/4 weapons’. Which boltguns does this apply to? (p66)
A: This applies to the standard boltgun (24”range, S4, AP5,
Rapid Fire), twin-linked boltguns on bikes, the bolter
component of combi-weapons, and hurricane bolters.

In my opinion the banner is best employed in a ravenwing build.

The landraider crusader list is also pretty interesting.

The problem with lists like what you propose is that what would make any opponent bother to come within 24" of your army? Then there is the fragility of the command squad to consider. Most opponent's will bring enough >24" firepower to kill your command squad and then you will have wasted a ton of points on a DA static gunline. DA do not do the static gunline anywhere near as well as IG or Tau. Now if you can get the force to scout forward you can do some damage. I have been considering an allied Raven Guard or White Scars to scout forward my gunline and give me a tanking character for my command squad. If we could figure out a slow and purposeful IC to attach...then we would be in the money. I have also been considering a drop pod TAC squads turn 1 and a DW command squad to DWA turn 2. This would give me turn 1 to pop vehicles/use my combi weapons and turn 2 I then get to benefit from the banner.

I have seen someone just spam tacs w/ a command squad in a raider w/ a 4++. after he moves up a bit his first turn he usually threatens most of the board. it would be so much better if it worked on storm bolters (more GW nerf hammers to terminators) but a bike army w/ the banner can HURT things. 6 bikers with 4 str 4 TL shots each? yes. yes and yes again lol

I have also seen it used as a table deny. he sets them behind a ADL as far up in the deployment zone as possible, pops a command squad w/ azzy there. and denys half the table.

Actually, min squads of Ravenwing bikers are the best way to run the Banner with a command squad holding it inside a LRC.

Twinlinked bolt shots and MSU guarantees economy of fire, relentless and scout means mobility and ability to salvo your bolters from the first turn.

but dont you like only get 18 more shots per Land Raider Crusader due to the Banner?

Those 250 points invested in tac squads for example would net you about 18 Marines, which equivalates to 54 extra shots than usual.

meh. if its 1250 or lower I run 5 man squads w/ 2 special weapons (usually melta) I have plenty of dakka in each squad and enough points for a good few number of squads.

The marines can't move and shoot 4 shots, and LRCs are far more difficult to kill especially when you give them an invuln.

actually the LR crusader nets you 24 shots (3x4 TL boltguns) X2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
here is a good 1500 list I think.

Sammy-200
command squad w/ dakka banner, apocthecary, champion.
LRC-
RW command squad w/ RW banner w/ champion
6 man bike squad w/ 2 melta
6 man bike squad w/ 2 melta
6 man bike squad w/ 2 melta
6 man bike squad w/ 2 melta



I forget if the libby can cast while inside a LR, if he can put him in the LR and give the last bike squad 2 meltas. this can take on most armies except heavy flier armies.

 raiden wrote:
actually the LR crusader nets you 24 shots (3x4 TL boltguns) X2.

18 additional shots because you would get 6 even without the banner.

true

LRC + MSU Ravenwing is imo, the single best way to run the Dakka Banner, as the Ravenwing CS is too fragile to last for any significant length of time.

That being said I've run the S&G version which involves a PA CS, in a Razorback w/TL Lascannon, 3 10 Marine Tacs with Combi-Plasma and TL Lascannon Razorbacks, an Aegis, Multiple divination librarians and then TriLas Preds and Whirlwind for heavies.

I've run both LRC + Ravenwing and the 3 x LRC builds, which are definitely the two strongest ways to use the Banner (and by extension two of the strongest builds available to Dark Angels). Both are incredibly one dimensional armies which struggle in high level competitive play, but they do just absolutely crush some armies. One of the biggest issues with these lists is that they are completely dependent on a single range band, which means you only have one way to play the army - move to just inside of 24" and start shooting. If you are against an assault based list that you can hurt with S4 shooting (i.e not Daemons or anything in transports) that doesn't have much fire support then you just run over people, but the second you run into someone who can shoot back then you have issues. Tau and Eldar in particular can get more damage output than you from longer range. Using Ravenwing means that your army is actually rather fragile, its low model count and T5 really doesn't help as much as you think it might. There is basically no difference for a Tau or Eldar army that are using S6-7 + weapons and they can easily remove 10+ bikes per turn. Its also one of those armies which is cursed with its damage dealers also being its troops - everything shoots at the Bikes because they are doing damage but at the same time they are killing your scoring units, which is a win-win. If you are losing the shooting battle then at some point you have to break off and go for objectives - which completely takes pressure off your opponent and gives them complete board control. Using just Crusaders makes you much harder to kill and in general I found that the overall damage they do is higher (because you don't lose any shots until you lose a Raider, whereas each Bike you lose is 4 less shots), but the army is very brittle. Losing a Raider hurts, and even with Deathwing vehicle its really not that hard to do.

@raiden. The safer way to do it is put the Libby in the Raider, and then take a Techmarine with a Powerfield to follow along behind (who can also get some cheeky hull point repairs in as well). That said I found that the Power Field isn't as important as you might think, the chance of a long range kill (or just a kill at all) against a Deathwing vehicle Land Raider is low to start with and the stuff which really threatens you (i.e MCs in assault) can crush you even through the Field. You also always want 6 Bikes so you can combat squad and fully push the MSU element of the list. Similarly you are much better off with Multi Melta Attack Bikes for anti tank than Melta on the Bikes, the range keeps them safer (Meltagun squads tend to make one way trips to kill heavy armour) and you don't waste anti infantry firepower shooting vehicles (or vice versa). I'm also not sure what the Ravenwing Command Squad is doing in that list.

Yeah, this is why I placed the tri-raider ahead of the LRC+RW hybrid. Either way you're one dimensional but this way you're more resilient. Yes, you have "less" shots, but you almost invariably have more than plenty anyway, and the biker variant will reach parity with the tri-raider by T2 or 3 anyway.

I always take DWV, the reroll is expensive but often necessary especially against eldar. You're already going balls deep points wise so why worry about 30 more points per raider?

The 3 biggest weaknesses, which are often fatal, of this build are anti-tank, anti-air and scoring. You often don't have enough points to invest in adequate anti-tank/anti-air and DA don't have great options to begin with, I would ally in a 'nilla libby, 2 LSS scout squads for fast, reserve objective takers, a Storm Talon and a Storm Raven. You kill two birds with one stone, get AA and anti-tank and the scouts are relatively zoomy and cheaper, fast scoring than spending 200 points on Sammael for scoring bikers.

I hope this helps OP. I mainly play my Tau+Tau and Tyranids competitively but I still break out my DA sometimes when I want to prove a point that they can (with allies) still kick some azz.

Also look up Forge the Narrative's Kenny Boucher's list from Feast of Blades. He took a tri-raider build with a DA libby (Divination) with an allied Tigurius and Grav Centurions. Once again, your kill range is 24", and he did lose 2 games because of that but the list did very well. (Kenny is also a very strong player, but so was the field)

Cheers.

Is Sammael the only way to get scoring DA bikes? (In new to the codex)

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Sammael the only way to get scoring DA bikes? (In new to the codex)

Azrael also makes them scoring.

By far the most efficient way to run it is with bikes. The LRC as others have said is also a good addition.

I personally prefer putting the banner on a RCS, as the LRC can be put down with a single immobilized (Grav guns anyone?) or Vehicle destroyed result. The command squad, with 5 bikes (Read the FAQ) and sammael in there along with an apothecary has 6 T5 3+ FNP wounds to cover them before the banner or sammael gets taken out (with careful positioning), which makes it reasonably durable in my opinion.

The RCS banner is not without its downsides however. The are plenty of cover ignoring attacks out there (Though the PFG and other strategies can counter them to some extent), also the rider with the banner is particularly vulnerable to precision shots, and artillery, as he is not a character so does not benefit from Look Out Sir!, so there advantages to each method.

Either way the dakka banner is best on bikes, and is the only thing really keeping the Ravenwing competitive at the moment, when compared to the new whitescar bikes.

Something to think about as well is that your entire army doesn't need to focus around the banner.