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Imagine that we have a t4 model with FnP and EW. Said model is hit by a S8 weapon. Normally ID would prevent FnP from functioning, but EW says that the model is immune to the effects of Instant Death. However, someone told me that ID does prevent FnP from applying since the instant-death-prevents-FnP thing is in FnP's entry, not ID's. I am fairly certain he is wrong, but what do you think, Dakka?

He is 100% correct (even giving exactly right reason) and it this is confirmed by rulebook FAQ.

Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

Q: If a model has the Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain special rules, can it still make Feel No Pain rolls against Wounds that inflict Instant Death (Eternal Warrior states that the model is immune to the effects of Instant Death, after all)? (p35)
A: No.

He is absolutely wrong. FAQ to rulebook not say anything about it.

FNP will work.

 Darog wrote:
He is absolutely wrong. FAQ to rulebook not say anything about it.

FNP will work.

Thats wrong. There is a faq that disagrees. As posted in my last post above.

I see. Thanks.

if you find yourself unclear on it, think of it this way:

the effect of instant death is that the model is removed as a casualty, regardless of remaining wounds.

the effect of eternal warrior is to negate the removal and to simply lose only a single wound, pretending that the weapon didn't have the instant death rule.

instant death is still there, it just didn't get to kill the guy.

fnp doesn't care about the strength or anything else, only if instant death is present, as instant deathis present, fnp cannot trigger.

Interestingly though, a S8 weapon doesn't have the instant death special rule. It only causes instant death if it hits a model who's toughness is half the weapons strength....it doesn't specifically have that rule all the time...

That said, I would still agree that he wouldn't get FNP against S8.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Imagine that we have a t4 model with FnP and EW. Said model is hit by a S8 weapon. Normally ID would prevent FnP from functioning, but EW says that the model is immune to the effects of Instant Death. However, someone told me that ID does prevent FnP from applying since the instant-death-prevents-FnP thing is in FnP's entry, not ID's. I am fairly certain he is wrong, but what do you think, Dakka?

(Emphasis mine)

Also remember that denying FNP is not an effect of the ID rule.

Think of it this way.

T4 multiwound EW model with FNP gets shot by a boltgun and takes a wound. FNP passes "That was suppose to hurt? HAH!"

Same model gets smacked with an S8 shot and takes a wound. FNP is denied since it would normally cause instant death, and the model goes "OW! That fething hurt! Didnt kill me but THAT HURT!"

Think of it this way, apple pie is so awesome that you should eat it every day.

Also you gets no fnp roll. Gaz takes a wound, but keeps on coming

I know he doesnt normally get fnp, but i run Grotsnik sometimes

Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be
made against unsaved Wounds that inflict
Instant Death.

From the BrB. An EW cannot be ID'd, but, the weapon stills "inflicts" ID. no where does it say anything about double Toughness. so IMO, you may take the save unless a weapon has the "instant death" special rule. Then, by RAW you would lose the FnP.

Double Toughness wounds have the Instant Death special rule...

rigeld2 wrote:
Double Toughness wounds have the Instant Death special rule...

no, they cause ID, the weapon itself does not HAVE the ID special rule, its different.

 raiden wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Double Toughness wounds have the Instant Death special rule...

no, they cause ID, the weapon itself does not HAVE the ID special rule, its different.

No, it's not.

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB pg16 - Instant Death

Note ID triggers on the model and that the S8 hit vs T4 model that normally causes that wound to cause ID is itself an effect of the ID rule. The model being immune to ID effects it is immune to the effect of that rule.

I'm not saying you all are wrong, just that I think there is room for doubt as it could be argued that if the model is immune to ID, that S8 hit will not cause ID and therefore FNP can be taken. As opposed to an attack that carries the ID SR which will always cause ID.

 Abandon wrote:

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB pg16 - Instant Death

Note ID triggers on the model and that the S8 hit vs T4 model that normally causes that wound to cause ID is itself an effect of the ID rule. The model being immune to ID effects it is immune to the effect of that rule.

I'm not saying you all are wrong, just that I think there is room for doubt as it could be argued that if the model is immune to ID, that S8 hit will not cause ID and therefore FNP can be taken. As opposed to an attack that carries the ID SR which will always cause ID.

^ This, if a model cannot be Instant deathed the double toughness takes no effect. However, if a weapon carries the ID rule, it causes instant death, which means the model may not take a FnP (RAW, perhaps not RAI though). EW ignores ID, it does not take a weapons special rule away from it.

No, they are immune to the *effects* of instant death. Totally different from the shot no longer BEING instant death.

 Abandon wrote:

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB pg16 - Instant Death

Note ID triggers on the model and that the S8 hit vs T4 model that normally causes that wound to cause ID is itself an effect of the ID rule. The model being immune to ID effects it is immune to the effect of that rule.

I'm not saying you all are wrong, just that I think there is room for doubt as it could be argued that if the model is immune to ID, that S8 hit will not cause ID and therefore FNP can be taken. As opposed to an attack that carries the ID SR which will always cause ID.

Now look at the ID SR.
There's no difference between a wound caused by double toughness and a wound from a weapon with the ID SR.
In addition, the FAQ answers this in that you don't get FNP.

In face of clear FAQ how can some people still argue. There is absolutely no doubt on this subject and there never has been.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they are immune to the *effects* of instant death. Totally different from the shot no longer BEING instant death.

And that wound causing instant death to the model is an effect of the ID rule. Making the ID rule both cause and effect in that case and as the model is immune to it's effects, is it not immune to the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB pg16 - Instant Death

Note ID triggers on the model and that the S8 hit vs T4 model that normally causes that wound to cause ID is itself an effect of the ID rule. The model being immune to ID effects it is immune to the effect of that rule.

I'm not saying you all are wrong, just that I think there is room for doubt as it could be argued that if the model is immune to ID, that S8 hit will not cause ID and therefore FNP can be taken. As opposed to an attack that carries the ID SR which will always cause ID.

Now look at the ID SR.
There's no difference between a wound caused by double toughness and a wound from a weapon with the ID SR.
In addition, the FAQ answers this in that you don't get FNP.

The difference is that the SR automatically activates ID on all the attackers wounds where as in the above case, the ID rule has to activate ID on the model which arguably is an effect of ID.

Like I said, just exploring all possibilities.

 Abandon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they are immune to the *effects* of instant death. Totally different from the shot no longer BEING instant death.

And that wound causing instant death to the model is an effect of the ID rule. Making the ID rule both cause and effect in that case and as the model is immune to it's effects, is it not immune to the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB pg16 - Instant Death

Note ID triggers on the model and that the S8 hit vs T4 model that normally causes that wound to cause ID is itself an effect of the ID rule. The model being immune to ID effects it is immune to the effect of that rule.

I'm not saying you all are wrong, just that I think there is room for doubt as it could be argued that if the model is immune to ID, that S8 hit will not cause ID and therefore FNP can be taken. As opposed to an attack that carries the ID SR which will always cause ID.

Now look at the ID SR.
There's no difference between a wound caused by double toughness and a wound from a weapon with the ID SR.
In addition, the FAQ answers this in that you don't get FNP.

The difference is that the SR automatically activates ID on all the attackers wounds where as in the above case, the ID rule has to activate ID on the model which arguably is an effect of ID.

Like I said, just exploring all possibilities.

Possibilities explored, conclusion, FNP does not apply.

I thought this was a very clear FAQ.

It speaks of a wound that causes Instant Death, and a wound from a hit with strength twice the model's toughness causes Instant Death. Ergo, no FNP for battle cannons on Space Marines, unless they're Plague Marines, in which case a Vindicator would make them feel pain.

 Abandon wrote:
The difference is that the SR automatically activates ID on all the attackers wounds where as in the above case, the ID rule has to activate ID on the model which arguably is an effect of ID.

Like I said, just exploring all possibilities.

I honestly have no idea what you're saying here.
Are you saying there's a difference between, say, an activated Force weapon wound, a wound from the Swarmlord's bone sabers, and a Battle Cannon wound all hitting a poor lowly SM Captain?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
The difference is that the SR automatically activates ID on all the attackers wounds where as in the above case, the ID rule has to activate ID on the model which arguably is an effect of ID.

Like I said, just exploring all possibilities.

I honestly have no idea what you're saying here.
Are you saying there's a difference between, say, an activated Force weapon wound, a wound from the Swarmlord's bone sabers, and a Battle Cannon wound all hitting a poor lowly SM Captain?

Well, yes.

In the case of S:T ratio 2:1 on a wound. It is the ID rule on pg 16 that causes ID to trigger on the model when it takes the wound. The model is immune to the effects of the ID rule so no ID is triggered on the model, therefore the wound does not, though any chain of events, cause ID... and as the rule does not attach ID to the wound, FNP works as the wound cannot be said to cause ID in that case.
-vs-
The ID SR makes all the models/weapons wounds cause ID. This automatically attaches 'causes ID' to all its wounds and as such FNP cannot be used to counter them.

If they had said on page 16 '...that wound causes instant death' there would be no room for argument but they did not so... there it is.

Do you have a rules basis for what you're saying or are you just making things up?

The wound in both cases is causing Instant Death.

Immune to the effects of ID =/= ID doesn't trigger otherwise the FAQ is meaningless. Your argument is that the FAQ doesn't apply and is clearly neither RAW or RAI.

Just because I'm immune to a poison doesn't mean that it's no longer a poison.

rigeld2 wrote:
Do you have a rules basis for what you're saying or are you just making things up?

The wound in both cases is causing Instant Death.

I already quoted the ID rule on pg 16 and indeed it does not say 'the wound causes ID'. Rather, it describes it as triggering on the model when it suffers such a high strength wound. That leaves a requirement to prove the wound causes instant death through a chain of events, which arguably does not happen if the model has EW since the ID rule would be prevented from triggering ID on the model.

 Abandon wrote:

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB pg16 - Instant Death

Note ID triggers on the model and that the S8 hit vs T4 model that normally causes that wound to cause ID is itself an effect of the ID rule. The model being immune to ID effects it is immune to the effect of that rule.

I'm not saying you all are wrong, just that I think there is room for doubt as it could be argued that if the model is immune to ID, that S8 hit will not cause ID and therefore FNP can be taken. As opposed to an attack that carries the ID SR which will always cause ID.

So you're just going to ignore the first 7 words of the sentence you quoted?

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're just going to ignore the first 7 words of the sentence you quoted?

Actually I'm quite focused on those words. The model with EW is immune to that effect.

The S8 wound, pre-allocation, does not have 'causes ID' attached to it. The wound is then applied to a T4 model which triggers the Instant Death rule. That rule does not attach ID to the wound either though considering those very words. So the wound does not directly cause ID, it only triggers it directly on the model based on the wound only through a chain of events. In that sense it can only be said that 'the wound causes ID' if the model suffers ID through some indirect outcome, which it does based on the ID rule on page 16... unless that model has EW in which case the chain of events will not include the model suffering Instant Death and it therefore cannot be said that 'the wound causes ID' in that scenario.

Does a S8 wound cause ID to a T4 model with EW? No.
So how can you say the wound causes ID?