Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

His sword says: "If Kor'sarro Khan rolls a 6 To Wound, that Wound has the Instant Death Special rule" (p.111)

Emphasis here is on "that wound", i.e. that wound inflicted is given the Instant Death USR. However, his Strength 4 is not enough to cause a wound on Toughness 8 in the first place.

Verdict: Kor'sarro Khan cannot insta-kill the Wraithlord/Knight.


However, here's where things get insteresting:

The Instant Death USR in the BRB says: "Unsaved Wounds inflicted by an Attack with this special rule automatically inflict Instant Death, regardless of the victim's Toughness." (p.38)

Verdict: Kor'sarro Khan can insta-kill the Wraithlord/Knight.


But here's my confusion: you can only inflict an "unsaved wound" if your strength is high enough to pass the die roll needed against the target's toughness value.


My verdict is this: Khan rolls to Wound. He rolls a 6. THIS grants that to-wound roll the Instant Death Special rule. Notice it is a to-wound roll with the Instant Death USR, and not an inflicted unsaved wound from a weapon with the Instant Death USR, so the Wraiththingy cant get insta-killed as the to-wound roll isnt enough to wound T8.

As for the USR itself, it is worded so poorly I'm getting a headache. I hate how it says "regardless of the victim's toughness", when it isnt even referring to the process of rolling to-wound rolls, but begins with "unsaved wounds inflicted" which means the phase of rolling to-wounds is already over. Yeah, real smart brain logic there, GW. If I have inflicted unsaved wounds in the first place, then I am long past the process of checking the target's toughness during my to-wound rolling process....so the "regardless..." bit is utterly void of context.

If I have already inflicted an unsaved wound (requirement bit for the Instant Death USR), I am past the phase of comparing the target's toughness when doing my to-wound rolls (at which point I havent yet inflicted unsaved wounds)...

He can. If he rolls a six the wound is subject to the instant death USR just as if an ID weapon had wounded it.

It is the same as rending just not as clearly spelled out.

The wound just gains the ID rule, but it still has to cause a wound for it to have any effect. It doesn't say the attack wounds automatically(unlike Rending) so it still needs to have rolled high enough to wound. And since Str4 can't wound T8 nothing happens.

A weapon with Str3 can have the ID rule. And it will cause ID to any model it wounds. The fact it has ID doesn't get around the fact that the attack can't wound someone.

ID can't take effect until an actual wound is caused. And if that is impossible due to too low a strength it never happens. So Khan can't kill a Wraithlord or Wraithknight unless his strength is increased.


Khan may have rolled a 6 to wound, but as he never inflicted an unsaved wound the ID rule doesn't matter. ID doesn't let you wound something you can't hurt.

Take a Grey Knight squad. At I6 one of the Halberd armed models causes an unsaved wound to the Farseer and the squad passes their Ld test to activate. Now all the attacks from the unit, including the swords attacking later at I4, have the ID rule.

Now the sword armed models swing at a Wraithlord. They all have the ID rule, but as they are only Str4 they cannot wound the Wraithlord, even though they have the ID rule.

...so what is the point of "regardless of the target's toughness" on the ID description then? Even though poorly worded, it seems to indicate that we shoudnt give a gak about the target's toughness.

My guess is that when GW wrote this, there were referring to ID regarding the situation where the attacker's weapon had double the strength of the target, which would automatically cause an ID, and the ID USR causes ID even if the toughness of said victim is high enough to not get ID'd from any weapon (i.e. T6 or greater).

It has no bearing on whether the weapon is powerful to be able to wound the model or not - if it isnt, it cannot cause ID as no unsaved wound is inflicted.

Know what I mean?

GW writing "regardless of the target's toughness" is relevant in the context of "b-b-b-ut my guy has toughness 6, so even a S10 weapon cant insta kill him". Thats when GW's rule says "No, you can get ID'd because this special rule given to a weapon has nothing to do with the ID caused from 2xS vs T."

If the weapon is weak enough to not be able to wound in the first place, even the ID special rule isnt able to circumvent that.

 Sir Arun wrote:
...so what is the point of "regardless of the target's toughness" on the ID description then? Even though poorly worded, it seems to indicate that we shoudnt give a gak about the target's toughness.

Because a S4 wound with ID will kill a S7 model despite it not having double S. Having Double Str to the target's toughness is the basic form of ID

Now you have weapons like the Eldar that on a 6 auto wound despite the targets Toughness that can also cause ID should the weapon have the rule, like D weapons.

Yeah, those D-scythe flamers can be NASTEEEE!

If Khan can be made +1 Strength somehow, then he could actually cause a wound on the Wraithknight on a 6, and if the Moonfang is AP3, that would screw the Wraithknight big time, aside from the invul sav those might have. No Furious Charge bonuses in the White Scars/allied Chapters or anything?

Have tigurius in an ally detachement cast Endurance on khan, +1D3 Str is enough i think.

Also i think that khan has the FC rule, just not sure.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Have tigurius in an ally detachement cast Endurance on khan, +1D3 Str is enough i think.

Also i think that khan has the FC rule, just not sure.

Endurance doesn't give +STR at all. You're thinking Iron Arm which can't be cast on anyone but the psyker.

Personally I think the rules are really really clear. You can't ID someone that you can't wound in the first place! It states he has to inflict an unsaved wound for it to occur - he can't do that at S4 so he can't benefit from ID. The regardless if toughness thing is quite clear too. A S8 weapon will ID a T4 character but not a T5 dude. BUT, if the weapon has ID then the same weapon can now ID T5, 6, 7 etc.

If a weapon that had the ID rule simply auto wounded, then huskblades would be unbeatable.

But seeing as how Moonfang only says the wound caused by the 6 gains the rule and there would be no wound caused due to high toughness, nothing happens.

If it was more like the Decapitator on the other hand ("on a role of a 6 to wound causes instant death, regardless of the enemy's toughness.") it would be more likely as there is no direct specification for a caused wound to be necessary. Even though he could already wound T8.

Instant death USR is not realtated to the Instant death section of rules in the shooting section of the rule book so 2x the toughness does not apply to weapon with the ID special rule.

Prey's bane pg111 of C:SM if khan rolls a wound (which he can't) that wound has instant death.

So no he can't wound a T8+ model so instant death wouldn't apply. If he has +1 strength modifier then he could ID T8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So on the charge yes otherwise no. Furious charge khan is a bane for the WK.

As with the majority here, I agree that Khan cannot wound the Wraith construct. You're getting caught up on the "regardless of the victim's toughness" part, but that only applies if an unsaved wound can be inflicted in the first place. The reason the "regardless of the vic's toughness" part is there is so that it can pertain to models which have a high enough Strength to wound, but not high enough to normally inflict ID.

Khan is a great option for T8 MC hunting.

5x str5 (furious charge) attacks hitting on a 3+ causing instant death on a 6 to wound.

On a bike this guy is scary good in CC

I agree with the consensus. Now take a look at the Emperor's Champion on page 118. In the "Slay the Heretic" combat stance, GW specifically has a different wording: "To Wound rolls of 6 made with the Black Sword have the ID special rule."

See how it is referring to to-wound rolls getting the ID special rule, and not "If Khan rolls a 6 to wound, that wound gets ID"

So the EC can slay the Wraithknight because in this case, it's not the inflicted wound that receives the ID rule, but the to-wound roll of 6 itself.

kranki wrote:
Khan is a great option for T8 MC hunting.

5x str5 (furious charge) attacks hitting on a 3+ causing instant death on a 6 to wound.

On a bike this guy is scary good in CC

...what? Hammer of Wrath attacks have no AP and also arent benefiting from Moonfang's special rule.

5 attacks because 3 base +1 for 2CCW + 1 for charging (he mentions furious charge) and then the HoW "attack"

Hammer of wrath doesn't really matter since its on an unmodified strength so will never wound. That's why its not mentioned.

And that's wrong. Moodrakkan does 1D3 HoW hits at S:5 for being a White Scar model.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I agree with the consensus. Now take a look at the Emperor's Champion on page 118. In the "Slay the Heretic" combat stance, GW specifically has a different wording: "To Wound rolls of 6 made with the Black Sword have the ID special rule."

See how it is referring to to-wound rolls getting the ID special rule, and not "If Khan rolls a 6 to wound, that wound gets ID"

So the EC can slay the Wraithknight because in this case, it's not the inflicted wound that receives the ID rule, but the to-wound roll of 6 itself.

Not true. The EC suffers the same problem - you have to cause an ID wound even if the weapon has the special rule. If a 6 can't wound the target, ID does nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I agree with the consensus. Now take a look at the Emperor's Champion on page 118. In the "Slay the Heretic" combat stance, GW specifically has a different wording: "To Wound rolls of 6 made with the Black Sword have the ID special rule."

See how it is referring to to-wound rolls getting the ID special rule, and not "If Khan rolls a 6 to wound, that wound gets ID"

So the EC can slay the Wraithknight because in this case, it's not the inflicted wound that receives the ID rule, but the to-wound roll of 6 itself.

Not true. The EC suffers the same problem - you have to cause an ID wound even if the weapon has the special rule. If a 6 can't wound the target, ID does nothing.

This.

Khan indeed has Furious Charge..
One of the abilities i tend to forget..

True I forgot the chapter tactics are +1 for HoW, but would assume this is really a moot point as you can't apply the ID to them as any wounds caused by HoW were not caused by Moonfang.

While I agree with the consensus here, this is one of those situations where the language allows a reasonable person to argue a contrary point. In lieu of an FAQ, declare a house rule.

I don't think it needs a house rule, the rules are pretty clear.

If khan on moodrakken charges a wraithknight with a scattershield it goes:

1 x d3 str 5 AP - I10 HoW hits which will cause wounds on a roll of 6

Normal save and wounding rules apply to this attack.

3Ax base 1Ax ACCW 1Ax Charge = 5A x str5(Furious Charge +1 str) AP 3 I5 attacks hitting on 3+ wounding on a roll of 6

No armour save, 5+ inv save any unsaved wound are subject to the ID special rule.

So on the charge its perfectly possible that Khan could ID a wraithknights.

kranki wrote:
I don't think it needs a house rule, the rules are pretty clear.

If khan on moodrakken charges a wraithknight with a scattershield it goes:

1 x d3 str 5 AP - I10 HoW hits which will cause wounds on a roll of 6

Normal save and wounding rules apply to this attack.

3Ax base 1Ax ACCW 1Ax Charge = 5A x str5(Furious Charge +1 str) AP 3 I5 attacks hitting on 3+ wounding on a roll of 6

No armour save, 5+ inv save any unsaved wound are subject to the ID special rule.

So on the charge its perfectly possible that Khan could ID a wraithknights.

Perfect explanation.

It's really not that hard?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

kranki wrote:
I don't think it needs a house rule, the rules are pretty clear.

If khan on moodrakken charges a wraithknight with a scattershield it goes:

1 x d3 str 5 AP - I10 HoW hits which will cause wounds on a roll of 6

Normal save and wounding rules apply to this attack.

3Ax base 1Ax ACCW 1Ax Charge = 5A x str5(Furious Charge +1 str) AP 3 I5 attacks hitting on 3+ wounding on a roll of 6

No armour save, 5+ inv save any unsaved wound are subject to the ID special rule.

So on the charge its perfectly possible that Khan could ID a wraithknights.

Perfect explanation.

It's really not that hard?

Except that's not what the OP is talking about.

Without furious charge, khans str4 isn't enough to actually wound a t8 model.

The old SM faq has long since been removed but wasn't it on there that he could indeed ID things on a 6 regardless of whether or not he could normally wound them? Don't have my printed copy anywhere I can find. Might be memory fail but I'm confident I've seen it somewhere.

I think hes just trying to get around a clear rule because he plays someone with a lot or wraithnights and want to instakill them?

Instant Death only takes effect on an unsaved wound.

Even if the attacks, weapon, or 'to-wound roll' has the instant Death rule, until you get to an unsaved wound ID won't kick in.

With S4 he can never cause an unsaved wound, because there will never be a wound.

well that settles it then. thanks guys. just needed your help with GW English