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It makes sense from a fluff point, their weapons being a part of them and all, but gameplay balance wise I don't see the reason. Are orks so much better at meelee than tyranids that to balance them they have to be lower BS? You cant really say orks get an overwhelmingly larger shooting base, maybe in 3rd, but over the years tyranids have been updated to be far more compotent in that area. A whole bunch of gaunts on average will put out a lot more hits than orks, if not actual shots. Zoanthrope blasts are accurate and can be screened well. Even the flyrant with 12 shots can be deadly. The only things I would consider "shooty" in the ork army are lootas, and burnas if someone lets them get there. I am thinking that nids are going to be more quality in the next dex, but keep the same average BS as well. Like I said, its fluffy, but not very well balanced in my opinion to have only one BS 2 base army.

Orks BS2 is probably because they don't aim.
Tyranids are probably because they actually aren't as relatively good shooters.

remember your boyz are still cheaper than gaunts (iirc)

Because for some reason they dropped Orks from BS3 to BS5 (Warbosses could aim!) down to BS2 for some reason, despite not changing some of the weapons.

Wot iz aim?

Orks are better at hitting in melee - many Tyranid creatures are WS3 (all gants, Tervigons, Carnifexes...) which I just don't understand.

Because 2 shots at bs2 is better then 1 at bs3

The Tyranid's weapon is an extension of their bodies, and they are genetically engineered to use it.


Orks don't care about sight alignment and sight picture. I think their guns only even have sights because they've seen too many Old Earth WW2 movies bouncing around space on ancient signals, and think it's more fun that way.

That said, I'd like to see Orks get bumped back to BS3 like in the old days, and make them a shooty army like they're supposed to be, and were in RT & 2nd Edition. They're not supposed to be good at shooting, but the term "More Dakka" didn't come from a penchant for hitting things. Everything in the Ork army is about having bigger and louder guns. Choppas is just for krumping fings if dey get close.

Don't believe me? Look at all the RT.2E era Ork Boyz.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2076orkboyz-01.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2077orkboyz-02.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2082orkraiderz-01.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2083orkplasticz-01.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1992/c92405orkweapons-01.jpg

Most of this I blame on 3rd Edition and it's realignment of the game into Fantasy Innnn Spaaaaace, and quick-resolution close combat rules. A lot of the great Orky weapons disappeared in the transition to 3+ Edition because the Orks became a "close combat army". Traktor Kannons, Pulsa Rokkits, Splatta Cannons, Smasha Guns...

Orks have learned, forgotten, and can't remember why they just know if you hold the trigger down and don't waste no time with nefing else that you will fire more dakka louder than the enemy and dats wut killz fings

Mainly because things like recoil dampeninng or semi-automatic dont come into play in ork logic. Where nids get 1 shot at bs3, orks go 2 or 3 at bs 2. Tyranid weapons are never more than semi-auto so they actually have some ability to aim.

If you made orks bs3 you would pretty much ruin the appeal of the army. They would go down to 1-2 shots and would join the ranks of IG as BS3 shooting army. A lot of weapon profiles would be scaled back a lot to compensate and they would be just IG+a bit of melee. BS2 and high RoF guns makes them at least a bit different.

For Ork gunz, hitting things is just an added bonus... the main points are that it needs to be loud, it needs to be intimidating and, for some Orkz, it needs to have flash, be snazzy, or otherwise better-looking than the gunz carried by those other Boyz.

I bet if Orks reaaaaaally wanted to, they could be BS10...

I mean... It's not like their guns work to begin with right?.. Probably just need a little more willpower for them to WANT to hit better XD

Yeah, just repeating the "ork technology doesn't work" nonsense still doesn't make it part of the fluff.

Orks technology works - and it works even better in the hands of orks, so it doesn't break when it should, fires additional ammunition when it shouldn't and is louder and stronger than a comparable weapon manufactured by the IoM.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
A lot of the great Orky weapons disappeared in the transition to 3+ Edition

To be fair a lot of factions experienced this. This streamlining of weapons and simplification of everything pushed me out of the hobby until 6th.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
A lot of the great Orky weapons disappeared in the transition to 3+ Edition

To be fair a lot of factions experienced this. This streamlining of weapons and simplification of everything pushed me out of the hobby until 6th.

Wow, me too. Although it was mostly the change in armor saves, vehicle armor, and assault that sent me screaming.

But as to why Tyranids are better shots then Orcs?

Tyranids are genetically built with great hand eye co-ordination, but most Tyranid creatures lack the training and drill to become truly good shots, like Space Marines and Eldar.

Orcs mostly just use the pray and spray method of throwing as much lead, or teef, downfield as possible and betting something will get hit.

Both systems work in their own way.

Rumbleguts wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
A lot of the great Orky weapons disappeared in the transition to 3+ Edition

To be fair a lot of factions experienced this. This streamlining of weapons and simplification of everything pushed me out of the hobby until 6th.

Wow, me too. Although it was mostly the change in armor saves, vehicle armor, and assault that sent me screaming.

But as to why Tyranids are better shots then Orcs?

Tyranids are genetically built with great hand eye co-ordination, but most Tyranid creatures lack the training and drill to become truly good shots, like Space Marines and Eldar.

Orcs mostly just use the pray and spray method of throwing as much lead, or teef, downfield as possible and betting something will get hit.

Both systems work in their own way.

Problem is when you get to A1 weapons like the Mega Kustom Blasta, which at BS2 is so bad that it's not even worth the use, but used to be worth it back when Warbosses could hit BS4 and above.

Along with Zzap weapons, which used to be autohit but now fire at BS2 because REASONS.

Depends on how you are comparing melee capability as to which is better.

Number of attacks orks win, since we are standard WS4 and some nids are WS3 for some reason. But almost every Nid unit outside the crappy gaunts has pretty fething scary melee capability (well, the ones that arent ignored entirely i mean lol). Whether its unusual WS at higher Init, strong melee weapons, or both, nids usually win as orks cant get any weapons outside a PK that actually help kill things without banking on weight of fire, and theyre always challenged out anyway.

Still find it odd that Warbosses arent stronger in melee than they are. They technically arent much stronger than a Nob, biggest boon being stock S5, despite theyre suppose to be way bigger and badder than Nobz. Warbosses kill you if you somehow didnt kill him first, Nid HQs just kill you first lol.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Along with Zzap weapons, which used to be autohit but now fire at BS2 because REASONS.

Mr Torgue reference?

 ductvader wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Along with Zzap weapons, which used to be autohit but now fire at BS2 because REASONS.

Mr Torgue reference?

Torgue would be DISAPPOINTED in the lack of useful Explosive weaponry in the ork lists!

He should start making Ork Torgue Guns. It'd be a dream for an Ork to shoot bullets that Explode, just needs more Dakka!

Nids > Orcs in every way, remember when you play Orc you play for fun, not because you want to win.

Often I let my opponents field 500 extra points because I know my Nids will roll over the crap that is Orc.

Excepting where it counts, and that is in having a cool army with flair and personality.

Bugs have none of these things.

Orks? Orks have personality in *buckets*!

... or is it that they have persons in buckets? I can never remember...

Stormbreed wrote:
remember when you play Orc you play for fun, not because you want to win.

My ass. They're only having a hard time now because of their aged codex which is now the oldest one still used and because of the ridiculous amounts of shooting from Eldar and Tau. And even now my Deff Rollas and Nob Bikers have little trouble steam-rolling Tyranids.

The Orky Bs 2, as far as I care is to represent the chance of a spent round landing on someone's head after the ork has fired it into the air while charging.

(Or in the case of lootaz etc, the kick from the gun)

MarsNZ wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
A lot of the great Orky weapons disappeared in the transition to 3+ Edition

To be fair a lot of factions experienced this. This streamlining of weapons and simplification of everything pushed me out of the hobby until 6th.

Amen fellas! Preach the Gospel! When 3rd Ed. I completely lost interest. That was when I started to get into MechWarrior
Dark Age. Then they started to do the whole, ok you can no longer use the first set stuff. Collectible games are utter garbage.

 Wilytank wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
remember when you play Orc you play for fun, not because you want to win.

My ass. They're only having a hard time now because of their aged codex which is now the oldest one still used and because of the ridiculous amounts of shooting from Eldar and Tau. And even now my Deff Rollas and Nob Bikers have little trouble steam-rolling Tyranids.

sorry to say guy, but the only army you "steam role" is an Orc player worse then you :(

Heh, you remind me of the guy who complained how weak the new Tau codex was because he could never win with it. Just cause you play a guy doesn't know how to use his codex well doesn't make it weak.

Stormbreed wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
remember when you play Orc you play for fun, not because you want to win.

My ass. They're only having a hard time now because of their aged codex which is now the oldest one still used and because of the ridiculous amounts of shooting from Eldar and Tau. And even now my Deff Rollas and Nob Bikers have little trouble steam-rolling Tyranids.

sorry to say guy, but the only army you "steam role" is an Orc player worse then you :(

That's kind of a bold statement, unless you can somehow prove that you've played and crushed every Ork player in existence.

Orks are BS 2 because of balance and fluff, with the amount of shots they get the devs needed to keep them at BS 2 so they wouldn't be outshooting shooty armies as well as being able to beat them in assault.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, just repeating the "ork technology doesn't work" nonsense still doesn't make it part of the fluff.

Orks technology works - and it works even better in the hands of orks, so it doesn't break when it should, fires additional ammunition when it shouldn't and is louder and stronger than a comparable weapon manufactured by the IoM.

I like this part a lot.

 Makutsu wrote:
Orks BS2 is probably because they don't aim.

That's understating it.

Tyranid are BS3 because they point their guns at the enemy before shooting. Orks, on the other hand, love the loud noises that their various shootaz make, and so keep them in a constant state of indiscriminate fire (which is also why they're assault weapons). Only a small portion of the time are they actually being deliberate about their fire.

Because while aiming would take away time and attention spent shooting, even such simple tasks as target identification do so too.