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Alright, I started to play Grey Knights mostly because of the fluff but I also heard that were a decent army and now with the addition of new codices, they aren't as OP as thy used to be but it just seems like I always get my forces devastated and ravaged by other players. Now I know that GK is one of the more expensive armies point wise and therefore has a low model count but I am always surprised by the amount of units other armies can take and it seems like I have a meager force in comparison that just seem like they pale in comparison when compared.

I run 2 full 10 squads of Terminators, a full 10 squad of GKSS, a nemesis Dreadknight, a Stormraven, a heavy weapons Inquisitorial henchman squad with plasma, multi-melta and Jokeros and not to forget the Vindicare I bring along with Coteaz coming in as my HQ choice. I always seem to start out fine but when my opponent starts to bring out the artillery, like say a Thunderfire cannon, my troops are just annihilated and I just don't feel like I can do anything. Usually I can take the first turn and completely decimate an enemy but after that first turn, I get decimated and my distance game is ruined along with my armor busting capabilities. I know one of the main advantages to GK is being able to shoot than assault and eliminate whole squads in a turn but it seems like I never get there because my forces are ravaged with few left to fulfill this purpose so I was wondering how one uses the tactics properly to get the most out of GK. I really like the army and I don't want to change but I want to feel like I have some kind of chance with this army.

Like tonight, kind of got my ass handed to me by a Space Marine army with Inquisition support. His Thundefire cannons just destroyed me and I am at a loss on how to help my situation b

I would say it is probably the terminators which from what I have seen of them are not worth it. I would get a lord commander or draigo so you can get some grand strategy in there. I would also replace the termies with paladins which I feel are more worthwhile.

How are you running the stormraven and dreadknight?

Have you thought about putting the henchmen on a skyshield landing pad?

Low model count is a double curse in 6th. Not only do you have few wounds to give away, your counter fire is limited by the models you have on the board.

I don't know the exact units available in the GK codex, but I'd consider dumping all terminators and see if that helps. Units with 2+ saves are very over costed in 6th ed due to grav guns, pseudo rending Eldar, etc.

Also, a single Stormraven is asking, no BEGGING to get demolished.

Your small model count list is not going to be able to wipe up a good 6th army in a single turn. Heck, even at the height of their OPness, GK at least had to work to beat my BA. Eldar and Tau just point and click.

if you want terminators.. take paladins. they are more expensive, but much better

Are paladins the 2W ones? Are they still T4? If so, skip them. That's just a few more gravy gun shots or starcannon shots.

To be fair Martel732 BA were top teir in 5ed when the GK were the at their height of OP. Eldar and Tau were both rock bottom teir...funny how 2 years changes things.

BTW
If you want tournament winning level GK. Then you need to read Jy2's batreps and see his army.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547392.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/564080.page

If you want a good list that I have found gives a shot at winning in any casual/pick-up games then you could try something like mine.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/555395.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/555548.page

BA were actually not top tier in 5th; ever. They were always below SW and IG, who came out before them. Of the 5th ed codices, the BA is one of the worst.

And it's the same two codices still. I still don't fear pure GK with the old BA codex. It's GK/Necron that's fearsome.

Eldar were not rock bottom by any stretch in 5th either. They could field Eldrad shooting lists with seer council that could defeat careless GK players who underestimated them with wound spam. Sound familiar? It's just that the Eldar got insanely better and wound spam and wave serpents became immortal.

At any rate, the long and short of it is is that 2+ armor save models are getting mulched in 6th.

Thunderfire cannons are really really strong, don't feel bad about losing models to them.


Grey Knights used to be this army with all the new tools in a world were assault was much more common and tanks were more survivable.

With 6th ed changes this has really forced us to use different aspects of our codex.

Coteaz I feel is arguably the best model in the game points for points. (is also my favorite model <3) He makes the cheapest wound in the game scoring, acolytes. When I start a GK list regardless of build I start with him. He's good in assault, has a slightly better bolter and has the ability to really enhance a squad's firepower/survivability. He also really helps to protect your back flanks from deep strikes.

6th is all about mobility, volume of fire, and scoring power.
A good list is judged with these in mind.

Just a couple basic squads I find myself commonly fielding:

GKSS, These guys are still great, ap3, stormbolters, inexpensive psyammo and warpquake for utility. Two weaknesses are their cost, 20 for a basic figure and their mobility/threat range. 24'' isn't going to be enough when we invest so much into them. I field them in a rhino with psycannons and psyammo utilizing the rhino's firepoints effectively. Chimera's are good too. If I have the leftover points I love slapping a halberd on the Justicar. They really have some serious firepower and are effective vs MEQ in combat. Keep in mind their weaknesses though.

Servitor's /W Plasma Cannons

This is one of the models that brought me to GK in the first place, they are such a deal coming in at 20 points a gun. Enhanced by a div. Inquisitor they are really scary. They have very poor mobility, can't snapfire and give first blood. I enjoy fielding 3 at a time on an objective babysat by a prescience Inquis. I deploy them defensively if possible.

Psyammo 2x TL Autocannon Dreadnought, They used to be wildly popular in 5th for good reason. They were hard to take down and really dished out consistent firepower. These days they come in at 136 points with a searchlight and still are scary.

I love fielding at least one of these for consistent, hard to take down strng 8 shots. With 2 you are able to really pick and choose what you want to die each turn as 8 TL B4 S8 are diffucult to deal with for any light infantry or medium armored tanks.

I love the assassins in the book, Callidus stands out to me and I use her sometimes for fun. She's a ton of fun and I feel in the right list she can be effective. I wouldn't waste time with any other as they simply die so quickly and cost so much. These will get focus fired down.

I 2nd Raiden's comment on Terminator's they are really poorly placed in today's world of ap2 shooting. They aren't mobile, scoring, nor do they provide a ton of firepower.

Dreadknight's are great, personal teleporter and an incinerator are basic for me, greatsword if I have the points.

Hope this helps, try new things out. A lot of the MEQ in Codex GK is overpriced by todays standards but will get brought down like everything else of course with a new codex eventually.

GK have a ton of allies of convenience possibilites too, don't be afraid to experiment.

I am beginning to see how bad Terminators can be. The 2+ save isn't really worth the points that you have to pour into them. I do have Draigo on hand just in case I need him and I haven't tried making the Terminators into Paladins to see of they would perform better so I might proxy before I start any conversions or just drop them in general in favor of GKSS.

I definitely don't want to give up playing my GK, I like them too much and spent too much money just to drop them in favor of just becoming another Space Marine army. I have given thought into possibly having Space Marine allies though and I have wanted to make a Blood Ravens army so I may start that by allying them with the Grey Knights. I started playing GK because they were the only force that were good and represented the Inquisition well but now with them allowing any force to take Inquisitors and henchman, I have been questioning about what is the point of playing GK in this edition but I still don't want to give up on them because to me, they are still just awesome which is why I have working on making them still viable in this age of riptides, grav guns, and Thunderfire cannons. I have been constantly tweeking after every battle.

Paladins are the way to go if you must have Terminator Armor in your army. Draigowing is the way to go if you must have Paladins in your army.

However, despite being a bit counter-intuitive as far as Space Marines go, Draigowing (or any Pally/Termy list in general) is a finesse army. You cannot simply throw your terminators at the enemy back-line and expect them to survive long enough to deal any damage. Carefully positioning them behind LOS-Blocking Terrain on 1-2 objectives is probably the most effective way to use them. They can act as a fire-base as well as deny board-space to the enemy. If you can place them in a defensible position, a good paladinstar can hold an objective for a surprising number of turns.

Also, unlike Tau and Eldar, GK Terminators/Paladins are better when you're not trying to wipe the enemy off the board. They just... suck at doing that. You want to play the mission and score the objectives, even if that means letting every paladin die so that the rest of your army can jump on an objective on the last turn.

Against an army that can wipe the table quickly (again, Eldar/Tau), you will of course have a tough time. It's not unwinnable, but consider that each mistake or stroke of luck might easily cost you the game.

Lastly, as points values go up, terminators become much better, since they are taking up less space in your list. The gap between a heavily optimized Eldar/Tau/SM list and an equally optimized GK list that sacrifices one or two units to fit in some Termies is much smaller than it would be at the 1k-1.5k level.

10 paladins with 4 psycannon, banner, apothacary
Draigo
Coteaz
Inquisitor with termie armour and psycannon, psyker level 1
Inquisitor with termie armour and psycannon, psyker level 1

With the new inquisition dex this is now doable, and you get 4 rolls on divination. If you can get lucky and have 4+ invun, ignores cover, re-rolls to hit and overwatch at full balistic skill you have a very hard hitting deathstar.

24 psycannon shots with re-rolls
draigo to tank all the ap2 S8+ hits
fnp to be more survivable
lots of psychic buffs

Just very hard to kill.

Other advise, dont take the vindicare, overpriced and never seems to do much before dieing. Raven is good, go psybolt assault cannon and hurricane bolters.

Other option for against things like thunderfires is 3 knights with teleporters to get up close and kill them in the first few turns.

I definitely am highly considering taking out the terminators in favor of more GKSS spam or maybe even another henchman squad to add some flavor. I have been contemplating taking the psykers in a chimera combination to see what can be done with that. I have also decided that I am kicking the vindicare, he was awesome for what he did but he is getting replaced by some other more durable dreadnoughts with two TL psybolted autocannons. I have been looking around and I am really starting to see the trend of GK armies and where they have taken themselves in this new 6th edition environment.

@ OP

Like everyone above has said... Gk has taken quite a hit from 5th to 6th edition. There are fliers, ap3 and 2 weaponry everywhere. Heck there is 2 and3++ re-roll able units everywhere as well and because of that your knights and terminators seem to be on the short end of the stick no matter which way you take it. Storm ravens are good but not great as vendettas and night scythes are half the points and can do the same job that they can. Take terminators and you have a less body count and with 6th ed really, numbers of units being presented on the table has proven to be key... simply put, you just fall to sheer numbers of dice. If you take strike squads you fall to sheer number of AP2 and 3 weaponry. Really what you have to do is just come to the fact you are going to have to decide one of 2 things

Quality or Quantity

If you go for quantity then you're looking at taking strike squads and henchmen/ looking for some allies to fill up the ranks. If you take strike squads I highly advise you give them rhinos or else they will be absolutely incinerated by the amounts of AP fire power trying to advance up the field... not to mention the absolutely notorious Heldrake that has become the bane of Gk strike squad armies. Keep in mind your strikes are still very costly at typical 250 pts upgraded to 2x psycannon and psybolt standard, and you still won't be able to field that many bodies so taking allies with a cheap source of bodies such as IG, or Eldar would come to greatly benefit giving you access to jetbikes as well as tanks and vendettas.

The other way is to go for quality and this the route I've personally taken as strikes at least for me don't hold out any longer than terminators... and moreover I'd rather have a 5++ than no save at all when it comes to all these armies with rending and removing cover ap3 and 2 firepower. Whenever I field strikes I find their ride being blown up and them stranded trying to push there way up the field into combat against armies with 2x the shooting power of my own... simply put they are just not fast enough for me. Some people have sucess but after 2 tournaments I am very much un-impressed with their abilities. For qualities sake what you really want are Terminators, Paladins, 2x Stormravens, 2x Dreadknights, 2x interceptors. Interceptors and the Dreadknights with teleporters hae been showing the best potential with the ability to creat huge amounts of threat and be able to at least have the chance to get into combat with the enemy. 2x Stormravens also show pretty good promise as well especially when outkitted with hurricane bolters psybolts AC, and MM. for 255. They bring alot of firepower and as they can shoot at 2 units have pretty good chance to bring huge sways during the middle of the battle when all the flyers come out.

If you just keep these 2 aspects in mind you will fair much better in playing in this edition. To my knowledge the best gk list are generally tied up with one allied force to try and back up that of the quantity or quality measure.... with eldar becoming the most predominant with eldar jetbikes for late game objective grabs. I personally have taken the route of SW allies for the rune preist as he just gives the Gk force such a strong defense against psychic abilites as Nids, Eldar, Daemons, Tau, CSM are really big on psychic powers or MC with low Initiative. So to have one model that proacitvely brings the ability to counter so many armies strong basis.... I find it hard to pass him up

I hope you got something from what the others and I had to say.... Don't give up my man. The feelings of triumph don't advent from the moment in which you have achieved your goal but the journey it took to obtain it.

 Envihon wrote:
I run 2 full 10 squads of Terminators

That is your problem right there. In a meta where these guys die almost as easily as MEQ and GEQ, paying 40pts for resiliency doesn't really cut it. I think you will find much better results if you drop these guys in favour of other options, like Strikes, Henchmen, or some more specialised units.

As mentionned, you have a few issues in your list :
- Very low model count (you take all the more expensive choices : a storm, a DK and 20 Termies...)
- Your guys are on foot, you have medium range firepower, so on foot you will always need to move the first few turns during which you get hurt a lot
- Dont trust CC, you will likely not get there)

You should check some other ideas of lists.
For instance i just played in a 1250tournament (i dont pretend to be an expert player or GK but i dont have too bad results and i finished 2nd with the following list )

Coteaz

3 multimelta servitors,2 jakiro, 5 henchmen in a chimera
3 acolytes in psyback (razorback with psyamo)
3 acolytes in psyback (razorback with psyamo)
3 acolytes in psyback (razorback with psyamo)
10 GKSS with 2 psycanon and psyamo in rhino

2 * Dread with 2 autocanon and psyamo
1 DK with teleporter and incinerator

I won against a Deamon army, an eldar serpent spam army and another GK army with a close defeat vs a TAU army

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I run 2 full 10 squads of Terminators

That is your problem right there. In a meta where these guys die almost as easily as MEQ and GEQ, paying 40pts for resiliency doesn't really cut it. I think you will find much better results if you drop these guys in favour of other options, like Strikes, Henchmen, or some more specialised units.

While these are fair points there are ways to make Terminators work for you.

More than 10 terminators make a Grand Master a must.

Coteaz is nice if you want the other cheap units but remember that we can make a squad of termies stubborn and give their massive amount of firepower "pseudo interceptor"

Librarian and Champions can also add a whole lot to a unit of termies...

But what I might do with your list is slim down to 10 termies and use the other ones as Mordrak and friends.

 ductvader wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I run 2 full 10 squads of Terminators

That is your problem right there. In a meta where these guys die almost as easily as MEQ and GEQ, paying 40pts for resiliency doesn't really cut it. I think you will find much better results if you drop these guys in favour of other options, like Strikes, Henchmen, or some more specialised units.

While these are fair points there are ways to make Terminators work for you.

More than 10 terminators make a Grand Master a must.

Coteaz is nice if you want the other cheap units but remember that we can make a squad of termies stubborn and give their massive amount of firepower "pseudo interceptor"

Librarian and Champions can also add a whole lot to a unit of termies...

But what I might do with your list is slim down to 10 termies and use the other ones as Mordrak and friends.

You know, this is exactly what I did for the new army list I was developing. I had a thought of adding a Librarian to a 10 man squad of Terminators to make them more effective and have them at least come in on the stormraven to give them more mobility and let me basically surgically strike with them instead of deep striking a squad of terminators and relying on foot to get around. I basically came up with this list which is a bit of a cross reference to an army list post I made some where else on the forums:

HQ:
Coteaz

Troops:
10 GKSS 2 psycannons psybolt ammunition
Rhino psybolt ammunition

10 GKSS 2 psycannons psybolt ammunition
Rhino psybolt ammunition

10 Terminators 2 psycannons 5 hammers 5 Halberds psybolt ammunition

Henchman-
2 Jokaero
3 Warrior Acolytes plasma gun power armor
3 Servitors multi-melta

Fast Attack:
Stormraven TL multi-melta TL Lascannon

Heavy Support:
Dreadnought 2 TL Autocannon psybolt ammunition
Dreadnought 2 TL Autocannon psybolt ammunition

It comes out to 1,787 points with 213 to spare for a 2,000 point army I am re-working. One of the ideas I wanted to try was placing a Librarian with the Terminators to give them a whole lot more surviability with psyker powers. I was also thinking about taking a Techmarine and bolstering defenses for the henchman squad and allowing me another 100 points to do some other things with buffs or maybe even another henchman squad, I am not quite sure really.

I like your list but I think you need to get psybolt ammo off the rhinos.

Pro Tip for a fantastic unit.

5 Purgators Justicar has a Halberd and Teleport Homer, 2 Incinerators and 2 Psycannons in a Rhino.

It's a fantastic cheap unit that works wonders for your army.

 ductvader wrote:
I like your list but I think you need to get psybolt ammo off the rhinos.

Pro Tip for a fantastic unit.

5 Purgators Justicar has a Halberd and Teleport Homer, 2 Incinerators and 2 Psycannons in a Rhino.

It's a fantastic cheap unit that works wonders for your army.

Too bad it takes up a heavy slot, although if you don't go the DK or Psyflemen route, Purgators are decent 3rd option.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I like your list but I think you need to get psybolt ammo off the rhinos.

Pro Tip for a fantastic unit.

5 Purgators Justicar has a Halberd and Teleport Homer, 2 Incinerators and 2 Psycannons in a Rhino.

It's a fantastic cheap unit that works wonders for your army.

Too bad it takes up a heavy slot, although if you don't go the DK or Psyflemen route, Purgators are decent 3rd option.

SJ

This is precisely why I dropped the Purgators from my list. I used to run them and they were great with Astral Aim to take out troops and light armor but anything else, they got steam rolled. Going up against Land Raiders, I really felt not having heavy hitting stuff like Dreads to TL Autocannons. I would love to possibly bring them back but I probably would just add another Dread to the mix or take a DK.