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Does the Supreme Grand Master know of El'Johnson being alive? Was a bit confused by the codex description.

I imagine the primach is in the tower of angels [were no-one has gone]

The final secret known only to a very select few is that, buried even deeper within the Rock than Luther, Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for the time when he will be needed again, to lead the Dark Angels in a new and greater crusade. Save the Watchers in the Dark, only the Emperor knows of this secret.

That`s from the Lexicanum http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson#.UozKrsR92EZ


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Luther remains chained within the most secure cell of The Rock, guarded by Watchers in the Dark and his existence known only to the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels Chapter, Commander Azrael, and those who held the rank before him. He is often used as an oracle to find the other Fallen. Azrael, like his predecessors, has attempted to make Luther repent for his crimes ten millennia earlier - but, like his predecessors, he has failed to do so. Luther only continues to rant and rave, claiming that Lion El'Jonson will come and absolve the Fallen, and that the day of the Lion's return is close at hand.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Luther#.UozLA8R92EY

I think that is who you are thinking of instead of the Lion that the Grand Master knows about.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Does the Supreme Grand Master know of El'Johnson being alive? Was a bit confused by the codex description.

No. They are revealed that Luther is alive, but don't know about El'Jonson.

If Luthor has been saying "he's coming back" for 10,000 years I'm pretty sure everyone would stop believing him!

Also, how is he still alive after such a long time?

Mellow wrote:
If Luthor has been saying "he's coming back" for 10,000 years I'm pretty sure everyone would stop believing him!

Also, how is he still alive after such a long time?

To my knowledge, Space Marines are functionally immortal. (But, of course, not invulnerable.)

But wait a moment... Luther is not a true Astartes, is he? But then, how...?

Luther underwent transformations to make him a Not-Space Marine, just like Kor Phaeron did according to First Heretic.

So he may not be an "Astartes" but he's pretty damn close.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Mellow wrote:
If Luthor has been saying "he's coming back" for 10,000 years I'm pretty sure everyone would stop believing him!

Also, how is he still alive after such a long time?

To my knowledge, Space Marines are functionally immortal. (But, of course, not invulnerable.)

But wait a moment... Luther is not a true Astartes, is he? But then, how...?

He is kept in stasis along with all the other captured fallen that have not yet been killed. The Interrogator chaplains keep them in stasis until they wish to question them. I can't remember the exact reference, I think it is in the 6th ed codex, but it may be in the 5th. The basically go back again and again questioning and torturing them until they either repent or die.

Marines aren't immortal, some just thought they were during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy because they had only been around for a few hundred years, even then the effects of ageing were being shown by Iacton Qruze and probably others.

As for Luther, there's always Chaos

According to the most current fluff:

Luther is alive and being questioned for information regarding The Fallen and Chaos.

The Lion is alive and fully healed, in stasis...awaiting for some trigger to return to the fight (presumably the Emperor's request or Cypher returning his sword to him).

So Lion El'Johnson is pretty much Sleeping Beauty???

Affirmative. If sleeping beauty resembled Thor. :-)

Animus wrote:
Marines aren't immortal, some just thought they were during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy because they had only been around for a few hundred years, even then the effects of ageing were being shown by Iacton Qruze and probably others.

As for Luther, there's always Chaos

Blood angels disagree. for Dante is now, 1100 years old and has VERY few signs on aging. (of course, BA geneseed has references stating they have the longest "life expectancy" baring unfortunate events (IE death in battle or blackrage/redthirst)


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 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
According to the most current fluff:

Luther is alive and being questioned for information regarding The Fallen and Chaos.

The Lion is alive and fully healed, in stasis...awaiting for some trigger to return to the fight (presumably the Emperor's request or Cypher returning his sword to him).

or possibly even the rock being besieged by a huge chaos army

Well... the BA are said to have longer lifespans than other Space Marines, who are said to live three to five (or three to four? I forget) times longer than a regular human.

So... we could probably see a Space Marine living 300 to 500 years, and a Blood Angel making it from 1000 to 2000 years (assuming standard three-to-five-times-as-long).

If SM were immortal, then this aspect of the BA would not be mentioned.

alright. I know the obvious answer is "because GW has a serious fetish for the messiah-will-return theme" but why on earth would the Primarch just be chilling in the tower and waiting while his legion has to deal with a secret war, enemies within the Imperium itself, and so on.

It seems like the majority of primarchs have been written in such a way as to "await the day when they are needed again..." but.. really. Wouldnt ..any of the Black Crusades have been a good time for a primarch to show up? Or that whole.. Hive fleet thing thats approaching.

It's one thing for Russ to be gone - he's probably become a daemon prince of khorne lost in the warp looking for the 13th still - but Johnson is physically there. Just chillin'. Come now.

 kazian wrote:
alright. I know the obvious answer is "because GW has a serious fetish for the messiah-will-return theme" but why on earth would the Primarch just be chilling in the tower and waiting while his legion has to deal with a secret war, enemies within the Imperium itself, and so on.

To be fair, he doesn't really have much of a choice seeing as how he's in statis and that no one knows of his survival except for the Watchers.

 kazian wrote:
It seems like the majority of primarchs have been written in such a way as to "await the day when they are needed again..." but.. really. Wouldnt ..any of the Black Crusades have been a good time for a primarch to show up? Or that whole.. Hive fleet thing thats approaching.

The Black Crusades and Tyranids can be repelled without the aid of the Primarchs, albeit being rather costly in lives and resources. While it would be good for them to show up, it might not be the best idea to come until that critical minute for the fate of the Imperium and all that jazz.

Slight ot quiz, has the fallen ever been described as mutated or similar gifted taint by chaos?

 kazian wrote:
alright. I know the obvious answer is "because GW has a serious fetish for the messiah-will-return theme" but why on earth would the Primarch just be chilling in the tower and waiting while his legion has to deal with a secret war, enemies within the Imperium itself, and so on.

It seems like the majority of primarchs have been written in such a way as to "await the day when they are needed again..." but.. really. Wouldnt ..any of the Black Crusades have been a good time for a primarch to show up? Or that whole.. Hive fleet thing thats approaching.

It's one thing for Russ to be gone - he's probably become a daemon prince of khorne lost in the warp looking for the 13th still - but Johnson is physically there. Just chillin'. Come now.

Its a common theam in all legend. The King in the Mountain. King Alfred, Gog & Magog, Charmaine, King David etc. They will always awake at the time of greatest need, but now is never quite desparet enough.


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Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Slight ot quiz, has the fallen ever been described as mutated or similar gifted taint by chaos?

The fallen in general, no. Specific fallen I'm sure have been, but as far as I am aware that is not generally related to them being fallen, but always left as the possibility that they could have fallen to chaos separate to the fall of the dark angels.

BA drink Sanguinius' blood, so they tend to be around longer or stop the aging process more like. I don't properly recall.

Being in the business of capturing Fallen brothers, the Angels encounter many secrets, mysteries, and deceptions. The vein of some secrets go deep within the Imperium, some even date back to Ancient Terra itself. Some may be real, some may be false. As for The Lion, the individual may not know much about the chapter, but the Chapter records everything. Because information, and the security of it is one of the trades of the Dark Angels.