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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




This is kind of a strange story involving "quiet titles" used to take over homes left vacant. The news article raises more questions than it answers.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/01/man-lays-claim-to-home-family-out-town-visiting-dying-relative/?intcmp=trending

I googled quiet title and came up with this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_title

The question in my mind is how long was this house left uninhabited. Another news report says the place was being forclosed on.


http://on.aol.com/video/ohio-man-claims-abandoned-homes-are-up-for-grabs-518028221?hp=1&playlist=127155?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000058&

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/02 18:23:48


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Wow, I can understand why something like this is in place, if somone abandons a home for quite a bit(Like a year or so) but My guess is they where gone for significantly less then that. So that sucks. I hope nothing bad happened to their stuff, Heirlooms are hard to replace

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Frazzled wrote:
Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.

Yup... shoot trespassers onsite.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 whembly wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.

Yup... shoot trespassers onsite.


"Remember, swift unbelievable violence has solved more problems than any other method in history."
-Temujin

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Frazzled wrote:Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.
whembly wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.

Yup... shoot trespassers onsite.

While I wouldn't immediately go to shooting on site, I must agree with Frazz and Whembly here. "Squatters rights" are completely and utter nonsense. Just because I'm not using something I paid for, doesn't give you the right to take it.


hotsauceman1 wrote:Wow, I can understand why something like this is in place, if somone abandons a home for quite a bit(Like a year or so) but My guess is they where gone for significantly less then that. So that sucks. I hope nothing bad happened to their stuff, Heirlooms are hard to replace

I don't see how. If someone pays for a home, who the crap is anyone to dictate how and how often they have to use it? If I opt to go travel the world for a year and leave my house behind, that doesn't make my house suddenly up for grabs for any one to just walk in and claim it. It's called Tresspassing, and it is generally considered a crime.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Well lets put it this way, if, after a certain time, a house remains unlived in, unkept and the owners are not doing anything what should be done? Let it stay that way?

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Made in gb
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





terra

 Frazzled wrote:
Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.


This guy is talking sense to me.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well lets put it this way, if, after a certain time, a house remains unlived in, unkept and the owners are not doing anything what should be done? Let it stay that way?

Yes?

If it becomes a health hazard, the local government has ways of stepping in to deal with it.
If it becomes an eyesore to other nearby owners, they are able to sue the owners for lowering property values.

Basically, there are plenty of legal ways to deal with property and property owners. Breaking and Entering is not one of those ways.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Looks like I read it wrong, I was under the impression this guy did find a legal way. The quite title thing is confusing

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well lets put it this way, if, after a certain time, a house remains unlived in, unkept and the owners are not doing anything what should be done? Let it stay that way?


Thats part of the idea behind it. Squatter's laws (used to be anyway) a 7-14 year affair for land. As Americans (HURR!) were want to occasionally bail for lands west, and lands weren't always the best marked, it was a way to quiet disputes based on the "crap I've lived here 20 years" argument.

It was not meant for such as this. Its a scam. Ancient Buddha recommends full enforcement of the Castle Doctrine (formerly, the "does anyone know soeone with a working pig farm" rule)

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Looks like I read it wrong, I was under the impression this guy did find a legal way. The quite title thing is confusing

I believe there are technically legal (the best kind!) of avenues for squatters to claim properties, but in they are almost never actually put into practice in my (admittedly limited) understanding. Either way, I find even those laws ridiculous and tantamount to stealing. I don't care how long my property sits unused, I paid for it. My money and title don't have an expiration date.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 streamdragon wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well lets put it this way, if, after a certain time, a house remains unlived in, unkept and the owners are not doing anything what should be done? Let it stay that way?

Yes?

If it becomes a health hazard, the local government has ways of stepping in to deal with it.
If it becomes an eyesore to other nearby owners, they are able to sue the owners for lowering property values.

Basically, there are plenty of legal ways to deal with property and property owners. Breaking and Entering is not one of those ways.


Hotsauce is actually denoting one historical way to deal with it. Again historically this took YEARS of notorious open possession and the squatter could be kickey time for being the trespasser that they are. This is a scam using interesting legal statutes for "interesting purposes" mostly to drag things until he gets a payoff.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Frazzled defending me *goes look outside* Huh, Looks like cats and dogs are living together

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Frazzled wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well lets put it this way, if, after a certain time, a house remains unlived in, unkept and the owners are not doing anything what should be done? Let it stay that way?

Yes?

If it becomes a health hazard, the local government has ways of stepping in to deal with it.
If it becomes an eyesore to other nearby owners, they are able to sue the owners for lowering property values.

Basically, there are plenty of legal ways to deal with property and property owners. Breaking and Entering is not one of those ways.


Hotsauce is actually denoting one historical way to deal with it. Again historically this took YEARS of notorious open possession and the squatter could be kickey time for being the trespasser that they are. This is a scam using interesting legal statutes for "interesting purposes" mostly to drag things until he gets a payoff.

I understand it may be technically legal in some circumstances (the best kind of legal!), but with the rise of technology to actually track ownership instead of things going by pony I can't see that actually being a common (or at all necessary, honestly) use of the actual law.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

You're right. Its very uncommon now.

Again its a scam. Quiet claim actions can be used for multiple things-ownership disputes over where the border is, etc. etc. You don't see it for squatters.

A nice summary from Wiki:
Grounds for a quiet title action or complaint[edit]It comprises a complaint that the ownership (title) of a parcel of land or other real property is defective in some fashion, typically where title to the property is ambiguous – for example, where it has been conveyed by a quitclaim deed through which the previous owner disclaims all interest, but does not promise that good title is conveyed. Such an action may also be brought to dispel a restraint on alienation or another party's claim of a nonpossessory interest in land, such as an easement by prescription.

Other typical grounds for complaint include:

adverse possession where the new possessor sues to obtain title in his or her own name;
fraudulent conveyance of a property, perhaps by a forged deed or under coercion;
Torrens title registration, an action which terminates all unrecorded claims;
treaty disputes regarding the boundaries between nations;
tax taking issues, where a municipality claims title in lieu of back taxes owed (or a subsequent purchaser of land at a tax sale files action to gain insurable title);
boundary disputes between states, municipalities, or private parties;
surveying errors
competing claims by reverters, remainders, missing heirs and lien holders (often arising in basic foreclosure actions when satisfied liens are not properly discharged from title due to clerical or recording errors between the county clerk and the satisfied lien holder)
Limitations[edit]Unlike acquisition through a deed of sale, a quiet title action will give the party seeking such relief no cause of action against previous owners of the property, unless the plaintiff in the quiet title action acquired its interest through a warranty deed and had to bring the action to settle defects that existed when the warranty deed was delivered.

Quiet title actions do not “clear title” completely. They are actions for the purpose of clearing a particular, known claim, title defect, or perceived defect. Contrast title registration which settles all title issues, both known and unknown. Quiet title actions are always subject to attack and are particularly vulnerable to jurisdictional challenges, both subject matter and personal, even years after final court decree in the action. It usually takes 3–6 months depending on the state where it is done.

A quiet title action is also subject in many geographic jurisdictions, to a Statute of Limitations. This limitations of action is often 10 or 20 years.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




The interesting thing I get from this rather ambiguous news story is that the guy has a team he sends out looking for homes they can claim are uninhabited and move in on.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






I can't wrap my head around this, I have a vacation home which may go a month or two 'closed up' in the winter. I don't see how this is legal.

You would think the Bank would execute their actual claim on the house as technically if they have a mortgage, the bank owns it.

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 streamdragon wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.
whembly wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.

Yup... shoot trespassers onsite.

While I wouldn't immediately go to shooting on site, I must agree with Frazz and Whembly here. "Squatters rights" are completely and utter nonsense. Just because I'm not using something I paid for, doesn't give you the right to take it.


hotsauceman1 wrote:Wow, I can understand why something like this is in place, if somone abandons a home for quite a bit(Like a year or so) but My guess is they where gone for significantly less then that. So that sucks. I hope nothing bad happened to their stuff, Heirlooms are hard to replace

I don't see how. If someone pays for a home, who the crap is anyone to dictate how and how often they have to use it? If I opt to go travel the world for a year and leave my house behind, that doesn't make my house suddenly up for grabs for any one to just walk in and claim it. It's called Tresspassing, and it is generally considered a crime.



IIRC Texas has a law on the books that says if a home is uninhabited, as in for sale or rent or otherwise actually not being lived in, and a person takes up residence for a period of time (I think it was like 5 years or something), and are not reported or otherwise "removed" from the home, it becomes theirs.

Obviously, this doesnt seem to have happened that way in the OP, in which I agree with "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later" response
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Sounds like time for RICO...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

Sounds like he's getting away with this (temporarily, most likely) by doing this to properties that are in foreclosure.

The report was a bit vague in that it never said that the family was actually still living in the home when it was taken over or how long they had been away. Also not explained is whether the property is in the foreclosure process or if it has been foreclosed on. Not that it makes what was done right, but if it's only/mostly happening to foreclosed or unoccupied homes that might explain how it hasn't gotten much press yet.

I think we'll hear more about this in the future.

I have a bit (not much) of real estate experience and can offer one possible explanation that might make sense of why this guy is doing what he is doing. When the bank takes possession of a foreclosed home, they often will pay whomever is in the house a thousand dollars or more just to vacate the premises. If a person can lock down and occupy as many homes as possible, all they have to do is be present and in the home when that day comes and collect their payment to vacate. It's not even that hard, since banks often send out notices as to when they will be coming to take possession. Figure a hundred bucks in locks, becomes a thousand dollar payday if you are there to collect when the bank comes calling.

If a person can produce paperwork -even bogus paperwork like a quiet claim that doesn't meet legal standing- there's a good chance the bank's representative might give them even more $ just to get them out. The payout is probably significantly cheaper than any legal fees that the bank might have to lay out to get possession so they don't really care who get's paid. When it comes time to take possession of a property, the name of the game is expediency, and folks like this Carr guy might be aiming to take advantage of that fact.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/02 22:45:38


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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Eilif wrote:


If a person can produce paperwork -even bogus paperwork like a quiet claim that doesn't meet legal standing- there's a good chance the bank's representative might give them even more $ just to get them out. The payout is probably significantly cheaper than any legal fees that the bank might have to lay out to get possession so they don't really care who get's paid. When it comes time to take possession of a property, the name of the game is expediency, and folks like this Carr guy might be aiming to take advantage of that fact.


Yeah, sounds like he is extorting banks who end up owning unsupervised foreclosed houses and he just happened to finally 'hit' a house which still had valid occupants.

It wouldn't be hard to identify either, most foreclosures go through months of short sale status before actually foreclosed upon and sometimes the people are already gone, so if he has a real estate person on his team, he can enter these houses legally, check them out, find out the 'story' behind them and then squat and stick the bank with a headache later.

Still pretty scary.


My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
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RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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 Eilif wrote:

The report was a bit vague in that it never said that the family was actually still living in the home when it was taken over or how long they had been away. Also not explained is whether the property is in the foreclosure process or if it has been foreclosed on. Not that it makes what was done right, but if it's only/mostly happening to foreclosed or unoccupied homes that might explain how it hasn't gotten much press yet.



Both reports in OP said family was away at the time, however the first one said they were PLANNING on moving to another city. This to me, suggests or tells me that they did in fact, still live there. Not to mention the articles talking about him throwing out their possessions.... Im sure he will LOVE the court results of this one.
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

nkelsch wrote:

Yeah, sounds like he is extorting banks who end up owning unsupervised foreclosed houses and he just happened to finally 'hit' a house which still had valid occupants.

It wouldn't be hard to identify either, most foreclosures go through months of short sale status before actually foreclosed upon and sometimes the people are already gone, so if he has a real estate person on his team, he can enter these houses legally, check them out, find out the 'story' behind them and then squat and stick the bank with a headache later.

Still pretty scary.

I doubt he has anyone on his team that is letting him into these houses legally. He and his crew are breaking and entering. He may have someone tipping him off to the home's status, but that information isn't hard for even someone without a real estate license to acquire. The homes he's targeting are likely not open to realtors yet because that would indicate that the bank or some other entity had already taken possession or oversight of the property. He's likely targeting properties that are abandoned by the owners but not yet fully taken over by the banks.

This is just speculation, but it's probably what he's doing in order to put himself in between the banks and the homes.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Both reports in OP said family was away at the time, however the first one said they were PLANNING on moving to another city. This to me, suggests or tells me that they did in fact, still live there. Not to mention the articles talking about him throwing out their possessions.... Im sure he will LOVE the court results of this one.


That suggests that he probably didn't think the family would be back. Let's hope this mistake takes him out of the game.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Eilif wrote:
Sounds like he's getting away with this (temporarily, most likely) by doing this to properties that are in foreclosure.

The report was a bit vague in that it never said that the family was actually still living in the home when it was taken over or how long they had been away. Also not explained is whether the property is in the foreclosure process or if it has been foreclosed on. Not that it makes what was done right, but if it's only/mostly happening to foreclosed or unoccupied homes that might explain how it hasn't gotten much press yet.

I think we'll hear more about this in the future.

I have a bit (not much) of real estate experience and can offer one possible explanation that might make sense of why this guy is doing what he is doing. When the bank takes possession of a foreclosed home, they often will pay whomever is in the house a thousand dollars or more just to vacate the premises. If a person can lock down and occupy as many homes as possible, all they have to do is be present and in the home when that day comes and collect their payment to vacate. It's not even that hard, since banks often send out notices as to when they will be coming to take possession. Figure a hundred bucks in locks, becomes a thousand dollar payday if you are there to collect when the bank comes calling.

If a person can produce paperwork -even bogus paperwork like a quiet claim that doesn't meet legal standing- there's a good chance the bank's representative might give them even more $ just to get them out. The payout is probably significantly cheaper than any legal fees that the bank might have to lay out to get possession so they don't really care who get's paid. When it comes time to take possession of a property, the name of the game is expediency, and folks like this Carr guy might be aiming to take advantage of that fact.


This sounds close to what my sister, a realtor in the Vegas area, tells me. The scenario she says is probable here is that the homeowners were getting foreclosed on and decided to live with the dying relative and take over that place after the relative died. After spending time to get established in the new area, they went back to get their stuff out of the house to find this new guy living there. My sister says a lot of times, the banks won't even bother pursuing the matter because the government reimburses them.
Apparently something similar played out in the house next door to her when her neighbor was dying. The family of his girlfriend swooped in to lay claim to his stuff and are trying to push his son out of the picture. It's a sad but not uncommen happening, she tells me.
   
Made in ca
Zealous Sin-Eater




Montreal

 streamdragon wrote:

I don't see how. If someone pays for a home, who the crap is anyone to dictate how and how often they have to use it? If I opt to go travel the world for a year and leave my house behind, that doesn't make my house suddenly up for grabs for any one to just walk in and claim it. It's called Tresspassing, and it is generally considered a crime.


Squatters right up here are aimed at making it harder for land-owners to make preemptive land-grabs that they have no intention of exploiting, because such land-grabs can cause huge amounts of pain in regards to development, and because no one likes having a governement that is forced to repeatedly expropriate it's citizens because they won't sell at a reasonnable price.

The prescription is 10 years and a day. That means that a squatter has to live in the open for ten years and a day, and the owner has to fail to survey it's property for that very amount of time, before property changes hand. We're talking about real property here. Someone who doesn't survey his land for over 10 years simply isn't a responsible owner. And 'irresponsible' here is an euphemism for 'brain-dead', really.

Any use of squatter's Right that doesn't conform itself to the spirit behing the law as it is laid here, i.e. forcing real estate owners to be responsible, is nothing else than a scam. The article doesn't give much information, but it does mention that 'this seems to be a pattern with Carr'. If there's a pattern, that's because there's an intent. Just that there is proof that this wasn't done openly and in good faith.

[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.  
   
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Northern IA

 Frazzled wrote:
Its a scam.
Response - shoot them for burglary.


Indeed!



I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.

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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Eilif wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

Yeah, sounds like he is extorting banks who end up owning unsupervised foreclosed houses and he just happened to finally 'hit' a house which still had valid occupants.

It wouldn't be hard to identify either, most foreclosures go through months of short sale status before actually foreclosed upon and sometimes the people are already gone, so if he has a real estate person on his team, he can enter these houses legally, check them out, find out the 'story' behind them and then squat and stick the bank with a headache later.

Still pretty scary.

I doubt he has anyone on his team that is letting him into these houses legally. He and his crew are breaking and entering.

And here's where six loads of #4 buckshot fired as a warning to the head and upper chest are an effective deterrant.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in nl
Decrepit Dakkanaut






I'm glad squatters exist, they are the reason I get to live so cheap.

Anti-squatter contract ftw. (I pay next to no rent to make sure squatters don't ruin the place, if the owner needs to use the building again I have 2 weeks to scram)
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

 Frazzled wrote:

And here's where six loads of #4 buckshot fired as a warning to the head and upper chest are an effective deterrant.


I am in entire agreement here Frazz. I stand by the "every house is a castle" doctrine too.
However, here in Britain where guns are hard to come by and shooting a burglar or otherwise will get you a massive lawsuit I find that a charging blacksmith with a spear/axe/sword/favourite hammer tends to do the trick. Even more so if their wearing the armour they made for themselves.

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