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I’m trying to prep for several upcoming ~1750 point tournaments and looking to finalize my list so I can finish the models that I need, but I’m struggling to settle on a list. For reference, most (if not all) of the tournaments are allowing Forge World units and I don’t have an issue with getting/converting such units. As a White Scars player, I feel the core of my list is pretty settled – 1x tank Chapter Master and 3x SM biker squads with 2x Grav-gun each. From there, however, I’m struggling to decide which allies and support units fill out the list best for a tournament setting, especially one heavy with Eldar and Tau (which seems to be the tournament norm for now). Even after taking some of the “nice-to-haves” I end up stalling out around 1100-1300 points.

I expect many players will balk at the addition of a Centurion “deathstar”, especially in a bike list that already has plenty of graviton. However, in my (admittedly little) testing, these units have performed well. The first reason for taking anything else but more bikes is that I often feel over-saturated on bikes beyond 15-20 models. Between their point reduction, increased footprint (4 bikes + AB previously versus 5 bikes now) and desire to refuse a flank/cram behind LoS blocking terrain, I struggle to find positions that are both good defensively for all of my bikes that also allow them to participate. I like to park every squad 18” away from the enemy and quickly run out of space. I have a thread here going much more in detail about the merits of a Devastator Centurion mini-deathstar in a White Scars list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/567625.page#6329878

Here's a WIP List:
Space Marines Primary Detachment:
HQ
Chapter Master (Artificer Armor, Bike, Power Fist, The Shield Eternal)
Librarian (Bike, ML2)

Troops
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)

Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad (3x Grav-cannon and grav-amp, 3x Chest ML, Omniscope)
Thunderfire Cannon

Tau Allied Detachment:
HQ
Commander (Command and Control Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Vectored Retro-thrusters)

Troops
Kroot Carnivore Squad (10 Kroot)

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Team (3x Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, 3x EWO, 2x Missile Drones) [Could get 4x more Missile Drones here]

Inquistorial Detachment
HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (3x Servo Skulls, Psyker)

1748/1750






OLD - Kept for reference

Here are two lists I've been playing around with and testing.

OLD LIST-IGNORE


I really like how this list rounds out, taking all the nice-to-have units and still coming up a bit short on points to allow for some wargear to taste. It strikes a nice balance between durable scoring troops and a threatening list. Target saturation is fantastic, as almost everything is T 4/5 with 2+/3+. Yet despite the target saturation, this list employs several distinct threats (grav bikes, grav cents, broadsides, TFC) all of which benefit from ICs, allowing me to divide the deathstar when convenient. Servo Skulls limit Khorne dog rush and HYMP Broadsides at least threaten fliers which are otherwise very problematic match-ups. I can have 2-3 units with AP2/Ignores Cover without relying on fragile Markerlight units.

However, critically, this list lacks any anti-psychic defense, which is very popular in the meta today. Nothing is too vulnerable to offensive psykers between lack of Puppet Master targets, good Leadership and great mobility to hunt them down, but I can't stop blessings. Heavy flier lists are also a problem, but these have seen a decline. Further, Khorne Dogs are still difficult, even if I remove their Scout move.

OLD LIST-IGNORE Space Wolves, Tau Formation


I really like how this list threatens a lot of the common builds. The Rune Priest shuts down Blessing spam common in Eldar and Tyranid builds, on top of everything the previous list did. Jaws of the World Wolf is just fantastic with Graviton spam. "Free" tank hunters and PE(SM) on the Tau detachment is just gravy.

However, this list is weaker on Troops. I lose a Bike squad and trade the Kroot for Grey Hunters, a distinct downgrade (Never thought I'd say that!). While two Broadside squads definitely aren't bad, I don't really want the second one. That's arguably ~250+ points I'd rather spend elsewhere, a pretty big tax for the advantages. I also expect most lists are going to be able to deal with a single, unbuffed Riptide easily.

Comparing the two lists, I feel both threaten the mirror match quite well. Most WS players run Flyer spam, which I care little about. Further, while the Grav Cents are easy for them to avoid, they give me a huge "No-Ride" zone, granting me board control. Both lists are threatening offensively, but I think the second has a slight edge with the extra Broadsides and Riptide. The weaker troops in the second list really concern me. No Khan means I don't put on the pressure as well as the first list either.

Finally, the first list avoids using Formations and Space Wolves. I expect many tournaments may ban/limit Formations and when Space Wolves get updated, I expect Rune Priests, specifically Rune Weapons and Jaws of the World Wolf, to get a nerf. Which is exactly why I'm taking them right now. So first list is more resilient to future changes than the second.

I've also considered DA allies for their guaranteed 4++ bubble. If only they didn't take up an allied slot. Thoughts? Anything I am missing?

For your first list, I would give the Tau Commander Vectored Retro-Thrusters, and possibly give the CM a jump pack instead of the bike so he can tank for the Centurions.

As for your second list, I like the concept, but I think the Centurions can be a bit of a weak point here. They cost a lot, can't get hit and run, and don't have a tank. Also, I'd put missiles on both of the Broadside units. Rail rifles are just sad, even with tank hunters.

I would keep an eye out for army comp rulings. Seems as if major tournaments are sick of GW's uncaring attitude and have taken it on themselves to impose balance restrictions. One of the major ones, feast of blades, says that any formation takes up your ally slot, so your 3 armies as one builds would be invalid. Just something to keep in mind.

I thought that all White Scars got Hit and Run. Now that you mention it I vaguely recall something about Cents being the exception. I could get them Hit and Run by swapping the Chapter Master to a Jump Pack and joining him to the unit, although I lose Relentless OS.

Why give the Tau commander Hit & Run? To give it to the Dev Cents, Broadsides, or both? I know they're normally very useful, but normally my bike squads get assaulted first, due to the fact that they're shorter range and usually seen as squishier targets (If the enemy has a choice, of course).

I was considering HYMP on both units of Broadsides, and I think you're probably right. I don't really need the high AP except in tank hunting, and having Tank Hunters already with the HYMP will take care of that I expect.

I've been keeping my eye on tournaments limiting armies and saw the Feast of Blades living ban list. That's one of the advantages of the first list, I think.

If you put the CM with the Cents you don't lose relentless OS as the Cents have S&P.

I find Cents work better in fours but they need a Tank with a 3++ to work properly. Though that is admittedly without divination. But having 4 means when 1 dies you still have a serious unit.

All broadsides should always have HYMP it is so massively superior. Also EWO is basically mandatory. They are great AA interceptor is necessary for that job. Plus 5 points for interceptor is BS just ludicrously good. Max missile drones are also pretty much a standard for them. Shove them out front if the enemy has lots of AP2 in range hide out behind if not.

Likewise Riptide needs an EWO always. Stims is also good.

I don't see what the Space Wolf detachment is bringing other than an overcosted Psyker?

Generally:

Khan is probably a waste now with the proliferation of servo skulls you're going to see.

You NEED Space Wolves to have a chance vs. Jetseer if they roll Fortune. (This is will be true either until comp is widespread OR Tyranids roll out and become prevalent enough that Jetseer loses favor among Eldar players due to Shadow in the Warp)

Lose the Tau formation. Broadsides aren't actually that good unless you can guarantee Endurance (Relentless...). Without it, they are typically useless in Vanguard (which will be at least 1/3 of your deployment in tournaments). No unit in a top-tier list should be uselss that many time throughout the day...and it sounds like you're trying to be top-tier.

If you're not going to have that many bike squads (this is gonna sound like heresy) you may just want to go UM. Hear me out. You can take Tigurius and roll for Perfect Timing for the Centurions, which frees you of the need for the buff commander. For one turn, your bikes will get to re-roll charge ranges. Your whole army can re-roll 1's for a turn. Your centurions will get to re-roll snap shots for a turn etc etc. (We both know what turn that'll be in most games...) Then you can still take Wolf allies and an inquisitor.

Overall, it's got potential. I'm actually a total buyer on the centurion dev inclusion. I would even say make the unit bigger and creep on deathstar territory if you're going to invest allies like a buffmander into it.

Best of luck.

First, thanks for all the feedback. My local meta isn't super-competitive so it can be difficult to weight my options accordingly.

FlingitNow wrote:If you put the CM with the Cents you don't lose relentless OS as the Cents have S&P.

I find Cents work better in fours but they need a Tank with a 3++ to work properly. Though that is admittedly without divination. But having 4 means when 1 dies you still have a serious unit.

All broadsides should always have HYMP it is so massively superior. Also EWO is basically mandatory. They are great AA interceptor is necessary for that job. Plus 5 points for interceptor is BS just ludicrously good. Max missile drones are also pretty much a standard for them. Shove them out front if the enemy has lots of AP2 in range hide out behind if not.

Likewise Riptide needs an EWO always. Stims is also good.

I don't see what the Space Wolf detachment is bringing other than an overcosted Psyker?

That's true, but that means I have to have him with the Cents to move & OS. Also, if I'm dropping Khan (which seems to have strong support), I need to include the CM on a bike in order to have Bikers as Troops. But then the CM can't take for the Cents unless I get them a 4+ cover save... Unfortunately I don't like relying on Divination for their saves, since I only have 3-5 rolls, which is why I was considering Dark Angels.

Updated the Broadsides accordingly. I'm cutting the SW/Tau detachment list because I think the opportunity cost is too high. The SW detachment brings exactly that, an overcosted Psyker. However, he has access to two important things - a Rune Weapon which helps immensely against Eldar, Daemons and Tyranids, two of which are dominant right now) and Jaws of the World Wolf which is fantastic with Graviton's Concussive.

I really like the idea of another Cent (or more) but I'm struggling to find the points for that and I don't even have all of the missile drones in the squad yet either. See my WiP list below please.

The Shrike wrote:Generally:

Khan is probably a waste now with the proliferation of servo skulls you're going to see.

You NEED Space Wolves to have a chance vs. Jetseer if they roll Fortune. (This is will be true either until comp is widespread OR Tyranids roll out and become prevalent enough that Jetseer loses favor among Eldar players due to Shadow in the Warp)

Lose the Tau formation. Broadsides aren't actually that good unless you can guarantee Endurance (Relentless...). Without it, they are typically useless in Vanguard (which will be at least 1/3 of your deployment in tournaments). No unit in a top-tier list should be uselss that many time throughout the day...and it sounds like you're trying to be top-tier.

If you're not going to have that many bike squads (this is gonna sound like heresy) you may just want to go UM. Hear me out. You can take Tigurius and roll for Perfect Timing for the Centurions, which frees you of the need for the buff commander. For one turn, your bikes will get to re-roll charge ranges. Your whole army can re-roll 1's for a turn. Your centurions will get to re-roll snap shots for a turn etc etc. (We both know what turn that'll be in most games...) Then you can still take Wolf allies and an inquisitor.

Overall, it's got potential. I'm actually a total buyer on the centurion dev inclusion. I would even say make the unit bigger and creep on deathstar territory if you're going to invest allies like a buffmander into it.

Best of luck.

Yes, I am trying to be top tier. It seems there are a lot of votes against Khan and, honestly, I'd like the have my Warlord trait back anyways. Well, it has been suggested that I pick up a ML 2 Librarian, and he could roll Endurance. Unfortunately it's not guaranteed.

If Tiggy could go on a bike... unfortunately, I really want to keep the speed. He could go with the Cent. I can't remember if he can pick from two tables or not, I'll have to check when I get home. I'll have to think about my options. It's still a useful suggestion. I really dislike how limited SM are with special characters now.

Here's a WIP List:
Space Marines Primary Detachment:
HQ
Chapter Master (Artificer Armor, Bike, Power Fist, The Shield Eternal)
Librarian (Bike, ML2)

Troops
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)

Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad (3x Grav-cannon and grav-amp, 3x Chest ML, Omniscope)
Thunderfire Cannon

Tau Allied Detachment:
HQ
Commander (Command and Control Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Vectored Retro-thrusters)

Troops
Kroot Carnivore Squad (10 Kroot)

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Team (3x Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, 3x EWO, 2x Missile Drones) [Could get 4x more Missile Drones here]

Inquistorial Detachment
HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (3x Servo Skulls, Psyker)

1748/1750

Of course, this list wants to spend up to 1886 points to bulk out the Broadsides with 4 more missile drones and the Cent Devs with another model, but I can't figure out where to get the points. I'm looking at Coteaz, but even removing him isn't enough. Now, of course, I could cut a bike squad, which would get me under the points limit almost exactly. But 3 Troops at 1750 seems low.

you only have 4 scoring units, 3 very small and one very fragile. Also every tourney in my area is disallowing FOC ignoring Inquisitorial detachments, Detachments and formations count against FOC in my neck of the woods and I would not be surprised to see similar rules from most TO's.

blackjack wrote:
you only have 4 scoring units, 3 very small and one very fragile. Also every tourney in my area is disallowing FOC ignoring Inquisitorial detachments, Detachments and formations count against FOC in my neck of the woods and I would not be surprised to see similar rules from most TO's.

I think that troops depend on play style and meta. I run 3 5 man tac squads at 1850 with no problems. In 6th you don't need to hold objectives to win as they are not as important as in 5th. I imagine he's going for the table most games.

We don't know how different metas will react to the changes. Expect some reactionary banning and comp like you see in fantasy but it will settle down. The UK tournament scene is often open to new things where as the German tournament scene is very reactionary and you often see blanket bans on innocuous stuff like special characters.

blackjack wrote:you only have 4 scoring units, 3 very small and one very fragile. Also every tourney in my area is disallowing FOC ignoring Inquisitorial detachments, Detachments and formations count against FOC in my neck of the woods and I would not be surprised to see similar rules from most TO's.

The resilience of my scoring units I think is underestimated. They spent much of their time out of LoS, and T5 3+/4++ is fairly good. The rest of the list applies a lot of forward pressure, making it difficult to chase after the bike troops.

I've kept the FOC limits in mind, and plan on sacking the Inquisitors if I have to as I feel they bring less to the table than the Tau allies. Although either is an option, really.

FlingitNow wrote:

blackjack wrote:
you only have 4 scoring units, 3 very small and one very fragile. Also every tourney in my area is disallowing FOC ignoring Inquisitorial detachments, Detachments and formations count against FOC in my neck of the woods and I would not be surprised to see similar rules from most TO's.

I think that troops depend on play style and meta. I run 3 5 man tac squads at 1850 with no problems. In 6th you don't need to hold objectives to win as they are not as important as in 5th. I imagine he's going for the table most games.

We don't know how different metas will react to the changes. Expect some reactionary banning and comp like you see in fantasy but it will settle down. The UK tournament scene is often open to new things where as the German tournament scene is very reactionary and you often see blanket bans on innocuous stuff like special characters.

A lot of my list is going to have to be in flux, unfortunately, because there can be comp, bans, and other restrictions. But I feel by going for a table with a very in-your-face kind of list is viable, as FIN brings up.

I disagree with the resiliency of your scoring. If you give them grav weapons you'll want them doing killing for you and this they will be in harm's way.

As for tiggy, he can pick from ALL FIVE tables. He is SO good. If he was your warlord, he could make the cents that much better and you could then take a total throwaway beatstick chap master for scoring bikes

 The Shrike wrote:
I disagree with the resiliency of your scoring. If you give them grav weapons you'll want them doing killing for you and this they will be in harm's way.

As for tiggy, he can pick from ALL FIVE tables. He is SO good. If he was your warlord, he could make the cents that much better and you could then take a total throwaway beatstick chap master for scoring bikes

Hmmm... I misremembered and thought he could pick from any of the 5, but all of his picks had to be from that one. That's better than what I thought. What 3 powers would you go for?

Well, that depends on your opponent. Is he coming to you? Or must you fight with the initiative? What's the deployment? If it's Vanguard and you must bring the fight to them, you're going to need Gate for the centurions. Sure, if you roll doubles on the scatter, you're losing an 80+ point model. But, that's not a probability and even if you do, that's still penty of grav cannons in their face. It's also another reason to go bigger than smaller on that unit.

Perfect Timing, Prescience and Forewarning all have a lot of appeal. Ignore cover I would say is the least important of these, as you'll be doing enough wounds to most things for it not to matter. Ditto Prescience. But the lack of an invul really hurts. So I'd say Forewarning is the crown jewel.

My list would look something like this if I were you:

TIgurius
Chapter Master: Bike, AA, TH, SE- 250

Bikes x5: Grav x2, Combi-grav- 145
Bikes x5: Grav x2, Combi-grav- 145
Bikes x5: Grav x2, Combi-grav- 145
Scouts x 5: LSS- 100
Scouts x 5: LSS- 100

Storm Raven: TLLC/TLMM/Missiles- 200

Grav Centurions x6: 500

Total: 1750

That seems like a whole lot of points in a single aircraft. Even with Tiggy's 2+, having over half of your points off board seems... risky. Why take the flyer if you're going to use GoI anyways?

One thing about concusive, from thunder hammers, or grav or anything. It only lowers your I value in actual meelee, things like rolls for hit and run and tests for jaws are unaffected. It doesn't make your I one, it makes you STRIKE at I one.

 Orock wrote:
One thing about concusive, from thunder hammers, or grav or anything. It only lowers your I value in actual meelee, things like rolls for hit and run and tests for jaws are unaffected. It doesn't make your I one, it makes you STRIKE at I one.

Incorrect.

CONCUSSIVE
Some weapons are designed to leave any
foe that manages tosurvives their strike
disoriented andeasy toslay.
A model that suffers one or more unsaved
Wounds from a weapon with this special
rule is reduced to Initiative 1 until the
end of the following Assault phase.

Thanks pretre, beat me to it.

Unfortunately Unwieldy weapons don't actually make you I1, otherwise there'd be even more great Jaws targets.

I think I'm going to go with a list like this, after everyone's feedback. Thanks for your time, I appreciate. I'll still take more, of course.

Space Marines Primary Detachment:
HQ
Chapter Master (Artificer Armor, Bike, Power Fist, The Shield Eternal)
Librarian (Bike, ML2)

Troops
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)

Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad (4x Grav-cannon and grav-amp, 4x Chest ML, Omniscope)
Thunderfire Cannon

Tau Allied Detachment:
HQ
Commander (Command and Control Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Vectored Retro-thrusters, Shield Generator)

Troops
Kroot Carnivore Squad (10 Kroot)

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Team (3x Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, 3x EWO, 6x Missile Drones)

1747/1750

I really like the Troop count. I decided to stick with White Scar tactics because Hit and Run army-wide really is that good. Tiggy is of course definitely worth his points, but he doesn't fit cleanly into the list and I'm not sure he's enough of a force multiplier to make up for that loss. The Inquistors are gone for now, but will be put back in for tournaments that allow them. I still have a few minor issues with the list, however. I can't have the Chapter Master tank for the Centurions, so I had the Commander take a Shield Generator, which is just not as efficient. Also, I'm not sure if the Librarian should be on a Bike for the 12" move or in Terminator Armor so he actually gets a 5++.

I would get rid of the Shield Generator on the Commander and get Iridium Armor instead. 2+ armor and T5 is a lot more valuable on a 4++ T4, since you'll be in cover most of the time.

If you can, I would try to find points for a Hound to go with the Kroot. Acute Senses is very necessary.

Also, why x4 Grav and x4 ML on the Centurions? Isn't it only a squad of 3?

Lucarikx

Give the Libby Terminator armour and a storm shield he can tank for the Cents. If you roll Biomancy he may even be an EW. If you get both life leech and iron arm you're laughing .

Keep the shield gen on the buffmander he's a back up tank should the Libby bite the dust early on.

Drop a bike squad down to melta you have enough grav and just gives you an anti-AV14 unit back up to the grav Cents. That nets you 10 points. You can then up the CM to a Thunder Hammer which is actually very useful against the level of model he wants to be fighting (Monstrous Creatures, EW characters etc). This should also net the difference for the Libby to Terminator armour to the same to a 2nd squad and you get him that storm shield.

Worth it if you ask me. I know Grav is great on bikes but with that Cent unit pumping out 17.778 Ignoring Cover Grav HITS a turn do you need anymore? Plus I feel the TH is vital to the effectiveness of your CM against other big hitters and that SS Libby will really help your Gravstar.

You are possibly fethed if you face Caestus Assault Rams since they are AV13, fliers and can carry 10 models even in Terminator armour but they cost a lot and don't shoot that well against bikes so your only real worry is some nasty assaults into the Broadsides or Centurions wiping them out. The other thing that might feth you over is Spartan Assault Tanks, since they have AV14 and can get easy melta immunity. I can't remember if non-heresy-era ones can take the flare shield as well, but either way you're kind of AV14 weak. Perhaps see if you can find the points for a double fusion suit to DS in or something so you at least have a little melta. The other weakness I see is to Helldrake spam if the Broadsides don't stay alive so I would say just be careful against flier lists, a Caestus to tank missile pod hits followed by some Helldrakes eating up those bikes could get very nasty.

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
You are possibly fethed if you face Caestus Assault Rams since they are AV13, fliers and can carry 10 models even in Terminator armour but they cost a lot and don't shoot that well against bikes so your only real worry is some nasty assaults into the Broadsides or Centurions wiping them out. The other thing that might feth you over is Spartan Assault Tanks, since they have AV14 and can get easy melta immunity. I can't remember if non-heresy-era ones can take the flare shield as well, but either way you're kind of AV14 weak. Perhaps see if you can find the points for a double fusion suit to DS in or something so you at least have a little melta. The other weakness I see is to Helldrake spam if the Broadsides don't stay alive so I would say just be careful against flier lists, a Caestus to tank missile pod hits followed by some Helldrakes eating up those bikes could get very nasty.

In a single shooting phase the Centurions should strip 9.86 HPs from an AV14 vehicle on average not sure he's going to struggle against a solo Spartan. They'll strip on average 2.73 from the Caestus too, whilst the Broadsides should strip a HP on the turn it arrives. So again 1 such threat in either case is easily dealt with. Triple Landraider containing assault stuff may cause him a problem, but AV14 fortifications are much more a concern as currently there is literally nothing he can do to hurt an AV14/15 building.

Lucarikx wrote:I would get rid of the Shield Generator on the Commander and get Iridium Armor instead. 2+ armor and T5 is a lot more valuable on a 4++ T4, since you'll be in cover most of the time.

If you can, I would try to find points for a Hound to go with the Kroot. Acute Senses is very necessary.

Also, why x4 Grav and x4 ML on the Centurions? Isn't it only a squad of 3?

Lucarikx

You're right, I'm parked in cover most of the time and I thought about the armor. However, the Tau Commander is bouncing between units depending on the needs for that turn, mostly between Cents and Broadsides. Both are already sporting 2+ armor and lack any way to mitigate AP 2 ignores cover (or being in the open). For the Cents in particular, I like to be able to push them into the middle of the board and still have someone tank for them. Both are viable, I haven't decided which way to go.

It's 4 models. All listed squads are minimum size to support the listed wargear.

FlingitNow wrote:Give the Libby Terminator armour and a storm shield he can tank for the Cents. If you roll Biomancy he may even be an EW. If you get both life leech and iron arm you're laughing .

Keep the shield gen on the buffmander he's a back up tank should the Libby bite the dust early on.

Drop a bike squad down to melta you have enough grav and just gives you an anti-AV14 unit back up to the grav Cents. That nets you 10 points. You can then up the CM to a Thunder Hammer which is actually very useful against the level of model he wants to be fighting (Monstrous Creatures, EW characters etc). This should also net the difference for the Libby to Terminator armour to the same to a 2nd squad and you get him that storm shield.

Worth it if you ask me. I know Grav is great on bikes but with that Cent unit pumping out 17.778 Ignoring Cover Grav HITS a turn do you need anymore? Plus I feel the TH is vital to the effectiveness of your CM against other big hitters and that SS Libby will really help your Gravstar.

Yeah, I've been leaning more and more towards TDA for the libby. If only TDA gave SnP so I could attach him to the Broadsides... My list tends to cluster together in general anyways, so the loss of mobility isn't that big of a deal. The Storm Shield is a good call though. Thanks for that idea. I'll have to play around with the points on it. My only concern with running melta on bikes is it tends to turn them into a suicide squad - being stuck at 6" instead of 18" cuts their survivability very short. I do agree that I don't need the extra grav, in my test games so far the AV2 spam is a bit overkill.

FlingitNow wrote:
In a single shooting phase the Centurions should strip 9.86 HPs from an AV14 vehicle on average not sure he's going to struggle against a solo Spartan. They'll strip on average 2.73 from the Caestus too, whilst the Broadsides should strip a HP on the turn it arrives. So again 1 such threat in either case is easily dealt with. Triple Landraider containing assault stuff may cause him a problem, but AV14 fortifications are much more a concern as currently there is literally nothing he can do to hurt an AV14/15 building.

Agreed. I'm not really too worried about AV 14. The top codices don't even run it, and the units inside will struggle to get their points back. Assuming I don't get the kill on a solo AV 14, they're easily screened from my more deadly units and they will be wiped off the board from my massed AP2 shooting (they'll either wipe my screening unit or be exposed by Hit & Run). Triple Landraider doesn't seem too scary either - that's 1000 points of assault stuff versus my entire list. Even then, I only need to get a single grav result to disable a Landraider into a 21 pt / turn bunker. On average just the bikes will disable 2 of the 3 Landraiders and force them to footslog.

AV 14/15... well, they have to come outside eventually.

You don't have to come out of Fortifications until turn 5. Your opponent could be hiding his entire army in AV14/15 build sing dropping Battle Cannons on you, Quad lascannons, and 2 D large blasts a turn. Can you really afford to wait until turn 5 to fight that? Though it does depend on how your meta takes to the latest 40k rules you may not have to deal with AV15 or D weapons but that has to be something you consider.

Not coming out of buildings until T5 is a bit misleading - tournament games are objective heavy, and it would be tough to take enough objectives in a single turn with a list designed to sit back and shoot. I've have to see one of these lists before I'm going to worry about it.

What about the following changes?
-Grav-gruns to meltaguns for one Bike squad
-1 Missile Drone

+Terminator armor on the Librarian
+Storm Shield on the Librarian
+1 Kroot Hound on the Kroot

Puts me at 1750 exactly. I really like having two squads of Bikes with Grav at least, as I want to keep at least some of my Troops out of the way.

Yeah that looks better. Just because the bikes have melta doesn't mean you need to use it. But its handy to have been if you need it.

As for not coming out til turn 5 it is not misleading. Objectives aren't that important in 6th as you can just go after secondaries and ensure there are enough objectives near you to win. A fortification army will go after troops first (though if he's relying on fortifications for all his firepower you can use that against him) and try to stop you from claiming more than 1 objective. They will get FB, STW isn't tough for them but at least you know line breaker won't happen.

I'm not saying I have a particular fortification list ides that definitely beats you. I'm just saying you need to be aware of what's out there and be able to deal with it.

Right, right, I understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to get at is without seeing an actual list it's hard to say how I would handle it.

For example, let's say it's loaded up like you said - Battle Cannons, Quad las, etc. That leaves very little room for other things, I would guess, such as Barrage. Because most tournaments use relatively dense terrain, I'd try to go second and play the LoS game. FB is granted, but I think STW is harder than you would think. If I have nothing I can kill, I will simply park out of LoS.

Objectives are quite critical in 6th tournaments, as most usually have a primary worth 3-5 points and a secondary worth 2-3 points, before you start counting the bonuses like FB, StW, etc. Or at least, the ones I'm going to do, which is what matters. Further, most specifically put an entire set of objectives outside of deployment zones, meaning that some of the defensive units will have to expose themselves.

Between the cost to make such a list on short notice, the likelihood of tournaments banning/restricting them and heavy-objective focus I think I'll be okay. I'd rather focus on opponents I know will show up rather than potential problems.

That's cool just playing devils advocate to ensure you've thought everything through.

What weapon(s) are you running on the Buff Commander that babysits the Centurions/Broadsides?

 derek wrote:
What weapon(s) are you running on the Buff Commander that babysits the Centurions/Broadsides?

None why would you take weapons on a buffmander?